Claim for 2-9 people

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Dsimms6
 
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Claim for 2-9 people

Post by Dsimms6 » 22 Nov 2017, 04:31

As everyone is complaining about it anyway. I'm making a suggestion. Once this is implemented, we will come back to the game. There needs to be Claims for smaller groups.


Peegee77
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Re: Claim for 2-9 people

Post by Peegee77 » 22 Nov 2017, 05:10

I posted this in another thread, but does this feature of personal claims not allow you to do what you need ?

https://prnt.sc/hdm0am


Dragmar
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Re: Claim for 2-9 people

Post by Dragmar » 22 Nov 2017, 06:18

You can share access to your personal claim.
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Hodo
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Re: Claim for 2-9 people

Post by Hodo » 22 Nov 2017, 14:36

Why not work with a larger guild instead of trying to be a loner?

I am not trying to be mean just want to know, what is the big turn off of working with others in a larger guild?


Peegee77
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Re: Claim for 2-9 people

Post by Peegee77 » 22 Nov 2017, 18:30

Hodo wrote:Why not work with a larger guild instead of trying to be a loner?

I am not trying to be mean just want to know, what is the big turn off of working with others in a larger guild?


I am sure every "loner" will have their own reasons, but since you ask I'll tell you my personal reasons (apart from me being an anti-social git of course).

I play another sandbox MMO. I am part of the senior leadership of a group of 800 players. I log on and play for about 4 hours each day. Of that time, I spend approximately 3 hours and 59 minutes sitting on my arse, answering mails, filling out spreadsheets and answering conversations from people who specialise in asking dumb questions.

It's a bit like being in the Civil Service, except instead of getting a wage, I have to pay for the privilege of doing 4 hours admin every day.

So, in LiF, I want to do the exact opposite. I want to log on, do exactly what I want, not be answerable to anybody else. I want to be dependent on my own skills, my own resources, and see if I can survive. And if solo play is totally impractical, then one day I will look at what the guilds are doing and see where I want to be. But if that happens, I want it to be the result of sandbox game mechanics and emergent gameplay... not something forced on me by devs or peer pressure. It's supposed to be a sandbox and I want to play it my way, even if it's a dumb way.

Like I said, others will have other reasons... those are mine.


Jazepo
 
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Re: Claim for 2-9 people

Post by Jazepo » 22 Nov 2017, 22:57

Just let everyone to build guild monument, but make it's size to depend on count of peoples in guild.
For example
2-6 people tier 1 monument
6-10 people tier 1-2 monument
10+ people no limit

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Beeste1337
 
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Re: Claim for 2-9 people

Post by Beeste1337 » 25 Nov 2017, 11:28

Jazepo wrote:Just let everyone to build guild monument, but make it's size to depend on count of peoples in guild.
For example
2-6 people tier 1 monument
6-10 people tier 1-2 monument
10+ people no limit



THIS ! Pls do this before u release LIF mmo on steam becouse every kid on steam will cry about this and will give the game negative feedback and it will ruin the game :D

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Hodo
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Re: Claim for 2-9 people

Post by Hodo » 27 Nov 2017, 15:50

Peegee77 wrote:
Hodo wrote:Why not work with a larger guild instead of trying to be a loner?

I am not trying to be mean just want to know, what is the big turn off of working with others in a larger guild?


I am sure every "loner" will have their own reasons, but since you ask I'll tell you my personal reasons (apart from me being an anti-social git of course).

I play another sandbox MMO. I am part of the senior leadership of a group of 800 players. I log on and play for about 4 hours each day. Of that time, I spend approximately 3 hours and 59 minutes sitting on my arse, answering mails, filling out spreadsheets and answering conversations from people who specialise in asking dumb questions.

It's a bit like being in the Civil Service, except instead of getting a wage, I have to pay for the privilege of doing 4 hours admin every day.

So, in LiF, I want to do the exact opposite. I want to log on, do exactly what I want, not be answerable to anybody else. I want to be dependent on my own skills, my own resources, and see if I can survive. And if solo play is totally impractical, then one day I will look at what the guilds are doing and see where I want to be. But if that happens, I want it to be the result of sandbox game mechanics and emergent gameplay... not something forced on me by devs or peer pressure. It's supposed to be a sandbox and I want to play it my way, even if it's a dumb way.

Like I said, others will have other reasons... those are mine.


So you play EVE... the spreadsheets gave it away, that and the people who specialize in asking dump questions.

But I suggested something in another thread.

You can each build private claims, place them close to each other. The first person places, sizes the way they want then they mark the corners with something... bags work.

Then the next person... and so on. Till everyone has their claims up.

Then you give each person access to your claim. And start building your respective homes. You can choose to build a earthen wall around your little village, and sure it wont have a gate, or any real way of keeping animals out or people from digging through it. But it will keep most random bandits away.

You can go further by walling or fencing off your individual claims. I did my claim this weekend, it took roughly 4 hours from start to finish, including building my house.

So I know it can be done.


En_Dotter
 
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Re: Claim for 2-9 people

Post by En_Dotter » 28 Nov 2017, 20:19

Peegee77 wrote:I posted this in another thread, but does this feature of personal claims not allow you to do what you need ?

https://prnt.sc/hdm0am


No it does not. First of all size is a limiting factor. If you want a group less then 10 it would be painstaking to manage multiple claims to have a decent size. Why should 9 ppl be in worse situation than 10? What does make 10 a magical number to suddenly make something a lot easier? There is no objective way known to me which suggest 10 is the way to go. If there is no reason for 10 to be magical we can keep going down and keep asking the same question decreasing the number by 1 - what makes 9 special over 8, 8 over 7 and so on until we reach 2 over 1. In that case there is a clear game mechanic called Personal claim, and i could easily agree that there is a big difference - personal means for one person, 2 players are more than one person.

Second problem is the current personal claim - guild claim interaction. Guild claim is stronger meaning guild claim overtakes personal claim. That makes the problem even more severe. Why?
Imagine there are 9 or 5 or 2 of us playing together (so basically 2 - 9). Each of us can have a claim of 100 grid units max. This means that we can have 200 - 900 units of area if we do the painstaking job of placing our personal claims to maximize the efficiency. Then, there are people who are about to place a monument and make a guild claim, or they have at least 20 ppl in the guild and want to expand. Instead of finding a proper land, prepare it and do the construction, they can just find our... err... "group personal" settlement and plop a monument a have most of the work done for them. We couldnt do anything to prevent them.

The third problem is artificially forcing players to do a certain thing developers want players to do. For some reason, i strongly believe, that devs want majority of player base to be in arbitrary big guilds. I conjecture this by the magic number 10, which is the minimum for the guild monument. Instead of placing hard caps on systems that are not obviously requiring a hard cap (like skills having values 0 - 100) there should be soft caps. How does that work? Both soft and hard caps are in the game - example is the personal claim size - 100 units is the hard cap, upkeep is the soft cap.
Make the guild monument upkeep reasonable that makes it harder for the smaller groups if the desire is to have more than 9 players in the guild. The guild claim has its own soft cap by default - the less players you have, the harder it is to protect and develop your claim.

The common arguments for "keep it at 10" that i have seen are either non-sequitur or completely missing the point:
1. Join a bigger guild.
- If players wanted to join a bigger guild they woulnt be asking to be in a smaller. The reasons why they dont want to join the bigger guild are irrelevant. The fact is they want to be in a smaller guild.
2. Find more players to join you and you can form a guild.
- Pretty much same as number 1.
3. Get alt chars and form a guild.
- This is actually a really good and a really bad argument. It is good because it explains how the system i flawed in the first place and how it can be bypassed, but it is bad because you would need to pay for more characters just to bypass the arbitrary magical number 10.
4. The devs are doing this to protect you from the larger guilds.
- I find this argument quite unsettling. This is a survival mmorpg game. Let us try to survive the way we see fit. There is no certainty that guild of 10 players will do better than a guild of 4. It comes to experience, organization, skill and diplomacy.
5. There would be guild monuments everywhere, a lot of griefing and stuff like that.
- The mechanic of guild monument could be tweaked as i suggested in some other thread - make it so that the newly placed monument doesnt overtake personal claims until it has grown at least by some size and some time has passed (eg. lvl 2 monument + 1 real day after it grew), allow all the people that have rights in the personal claim to have no penalty fighting the oppressors and give an alignment hit on the oppressors collectively if personal claims dont belong to the guild members . This would allow ppl on the personal claim to fight back for their land and make stealing personal claims a bit of a risk.

TL:DR
Any group should be allowed to make a guild claim. Guild claim mechanic should be slightly tweaked as explained to prevent spam and griefing.
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Hodo
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Re: Claim for 2-9 people

Post by Hodo » 28 Nov 2017, 20:30

En_Dotter wrote:TL:DR
Any group should be allowed to make a guild claim. Guild claim mechanic should be slightly tweaked as explained to prevent spam and griefing.


Then we end up with the Wurm Online issue....
Hundreds of little half terraformed land bits left from the hundreds of failed small 1-9 man "guilds" that played for a week got bored and left.

Sorry but not only is tit ugly as hell, but it is annoying as hell.

I stated before and I will say it again. Small groups of people can play together, they just have to think outside of the box. You can set 1-9 personal claims close together and form a community, call it a village. You all will have streets between the claims and each person is the king of his little castle. No you wont have big walls to protect you, you probably wont have most of the higher tier things... but that is the choice you made.

Even if you were aloud to form small guilds of less than 10, you would be devoured by much larger guilds when they are able to siege you. Manly because you will be an "easy" win.


En_Dotter
 
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Re: Claim for 2-9 people

Post by En_Dotter » 28 Nov 2017, 21:00

Hodo wrote:
Then we end up with the Wurm Online issue....
Hundreds of little half terraformed land bits left from the hundreds of failed small 1-9 man "guilds" that played for a week got bored and left.


Monument upkeep takes care of that. Also, why having personal claims cus it makes the situation even worse. Every single player can put a personal claim and abandon it later.

Hodo wrote:Sorry but not only is tit ugly as hell, but it is annoying as hell.


So it is annoying to allow people to play the game in a way you dont want them to play? It is annoying to allow someone to even try to play it the way they want and then do it differently? Also what kind of authority on beauty are you to state that something shouldnt be done if its ugly to u?

Hodo wrote:I stated before and I will say it again. Small groups of people can play together, they just have to think outside of the box. You can set 1-9 personal claims close together and form a community, call it a village. You all will have streets between the claims and each person is the king of his little castle. No you wont have big walls to protect you, you probably wont have most of the higher tier things... but that is the choice you made.


I didnt see anyone who is advocating for smaller limit for guilds or any limit for guilds saying it is impossible for small groups to play. It is penalized by the game mechanics. At any moment everything you have as a community can be gone and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. Again, why should 9 ppl think outside of the box and 10 or more can have the box? You have failed to provide a convincing argument.

Hodo wrote:Even if you were aloud to form small guilds of less than 10, you would be devoured by much larger guilds when they are able to siege you. Manly because you will be an "easy" win.


That is something you should not be concerned with. It is a risk ppl are willing to take. Also prove that 10 ppl will always win over a group of 9 or 8 for example? Why should 10 ppl be harder to conquer than a group of 9 for example? If 100 player clan comes for a group of 20, im quite confident that the 20 player guild will be crushed. Should we increase the minimum players to 30? Is that going to solve anything?
Also, if you are replying to my post and just quoting the TL:DR part then clearly you dont care about the discussion but only about your own "vision". If you have read properly what i have written you might have already seen that all of your points have been addressed in the post that you didnt even try to read or if you have, you couldnt care less to think about.
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Hodo
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Re: Claim for 2-9 people

Post by Hodo » 28 Nov 2017, 22:07

En_Dotter wrote:
That is something you should not be concerned with. It is a risk ppl are willing to take. Also prove that 10 ppl will always win over a group of 9 or 8 for example? Why should 10 ppl be harder to conquer than a group of 9 for example? If 100 player clan comes for a group of 20, im quite confident that the 20 player guild will be crushed. Should we increase the minimum players to 30? Is that going to solve anything?
Also, if you are replying to my post and just quoting the TL:DR part then clearly you dont care about the discussion but only about your own "vision". If you have read properly what i have written you might have already seen that all of your points have been addressed in the post that you didnt even try to read or if you have, you couldnt care less to think about.


I quoted the TL;DR because that is supposed to be the short version and it is better than quoting the wall of text you had.

As for the rest of it. Yes I am talking about my on view of the game, but so are you for that matter. Sorry ma'am but that is them facts. (I am guessing you are female judging by the name, En's Daughter)

I would actually love to see some small group of 9 or less players take time to setup a village of private claims instead of trying to make a guild claim. I think it would be cool and outstanding looking. My guild is doing something like that with our realm lands, where we will have all of our newer members live.

IN short this is how I feel about the guild claim vs private claim situation. You can do pretty much everything you want to do on a private claim that you can do on a guild claim. The only difference is, private claims are expensive.


En_Dotter
 
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Re: Claim for 2-9 people

Post by En_Dotter » 28 Nov 2017, 22:47

Hodo wrote:/snip


Tnx for clarifying that you have read it. This makes me rather confused, cus it seems like you didnt quite well understand what i have written. I might have not conveyed my message well enough.

Just to clarify one thing. Having differing points of view is a good thing which should make both sides rethink their positions.
What i am confused the most is you insisting that private claim gives all the same as guild claim, but is smaller (and more expensive). But that simply isnt true. The major difference is that guild claim is safe from being annexed, while the personal claim can disappear the moment someone places a guild monument. Why would anyone try to make a personal claim village when it can disappear in a moment? There is nothing that can stop that and it makes personal claim villages a major risk. If i saw a village like that i would just plop a guild monument because game allows it, and basically encourages it because of the grind time (i have nothing against grind time). This is one of the reason people want guild claims with fewer ppl than 10.
Now if you say you can spread out your claims then whats the point? We will be somewhat secure when it comes to being completely overtaken, but less coherent as a settlement and that makes private claim villages even less of a viable choice.

Romanticizing of personal claim villages is great, but the current system discourages it strongly.
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Hodo
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Re: Claim for 2-9 people

Post by Hodo » 29 Nov 2017, 16:51

I know it isnt perfect, but trust me the guild monument system has its flaws too.

To be honest the private monument village is probably the best approach for most small groups. When you get to 10 people if you ever decide to go that route, just go ahead and throw down a guild monument over your own lands. This way you aint got to worry about it.

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