Feedback/Suggestion 2: Land Control, Military Outpost and Coin Faucets and Sinks,

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Sunleader
 
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Re: Feedback/Suggestion: Land Control, Military Outpost and Coin Faucets and Sinks,

Post by Sunleader » 19 Sep 2018, 08:02

SonofKitt wrote:In terms of hardcore;


Its naive to look at steam charts alone for this game as a lot of players have never used the steam launcher (its was buggy initially) and just use the Non-steam launcher - so the graph could look even worse than that.

Plus, the steam charts support my arguement as I'm saying the game hasn't had its Hardcore nature since the start of the year when the game started declining. Buyan used to have 3000-4000 a day, now its 50-75.

See that big downward trend in the steam chart?, that's starts around January, well they removed bark boxing around that time, so that when the hardcore the ended. They have been slowly realising non-hardcore mechanics, which just keeps nudging that hardcore trend even further down.

One persons summary from the forums sums it up well.

Roaming is dead, there is no resource you can't get from the safety of your claim, which are now 100% safe if you put in any effort (drying rack spam).

This game will devolve into a login for JH/IB/Siege and logout.
Nobody roams this isn't darkfall or MO where you have to go out into the world to get materials. Roaming pvp will never be a solution on LiF because there is no reason to roam.


A lot of players agreed, and slowly but surely there was nothing left for them to do, no reason to leave there bases, nobody left for them to wage war with outside of IBs. It only got worse when more and more people left.

New servers really didnt help.


In terms of realism;

A feudal system in a feudal game would equal realism. You cant compare numbers raise/decline because there has been no system like it in game as of yet. To make any predictions on player psychology would be to assume many things (probably with a lot of bias to ones own opinions) but ultimately you wouldn't know until you tried it. And a great time to do that would be in say a testing phase like a BETA.....

Ta



The Decline is from the get go and was there way before barkbox removal.
Fun Fact.
If you read the Reviews you have far more complains about people getting over walls and killing everyone than you have about remval of flying barboxes.

So yeah take a guess.




In General maybe read the reviews.
The Devs apparently did.

And guess what.
Most complains from people leaving are.

*Random ******** destroyed my stuff or killed me*
*grind takes forever and is repeatetive*
*cant get money for claim because only tradeposts are guilds*
*people jumped/glitched/bugged over my Pallisade and killed me*

One fairly common is abuse of PCs for blocking other Guilds


What you find fairly rarely is lack of PvP.
And I really had to dig to find one that complained about not being allowed to destroy soloers or small group claims.


So yeah sorry but no we dont need realism right now.
What we need is PvE Content and systems for proper player interaction without being forced to join guilds


SonofKitt
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Re: Feedback/Suggestion: Land Control, Military Outpost and Coin Faucets and Sinks,

Post by SonofKitt » 19 Sep 2018, 08:20

As you word is unreliable at best (you see what you wanted to see in the first place) im going to go back through each steam review and record the main reasons why people left a negative review against how many hours they have played. Because not one of my 150 guild would have used those reasons. I doubt there are 10000+ reviews (number of people who have left)

Reviews are only often left by certain types of personalitys in my opinion anyway but you cant really track that. The devs should email everyone and have a multi choice tick box, "why you left the game" . Plus, as mentioned previously, steam reviews ONLY account for people who used the steam client, new players. All the people who started the MMO beta didnt use this, so they would have to go out of their way to download a game theat downloads incredibly slow just to leave a review. Most didnt which im sure the numbers will show. 10000s players left because "someone jumped over my walls" man those handfull of people jumping over walls must of been busy.

Plus as i added to my post above, give guids a reason to fight other guilds and they will. The people who go after weak/solo/new players are ones who want sandbox non instanced pvp but dont have the ability/incentive/means to fight other guilds due to the current mechanics.

Make solo/new players valauble to guilds and guilds will protect them.


Sunleader
 
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Re: Feedback/Suggestion: Land Control, Military Outpost and Coin Faucets and Sinks,

Post by Sunleader » 19 Sep 2018, 09:53

SonofKitt wrote:As you word is unreliable at best (you see what you wanted to see in the first place) im going to go back through each steam review and record the main reasons why people left a negative review against how many hours they have played. Because not one of my 150 guild would have used those reasons. I doubt there are 10000+ reviews (number of people who have left)

Reviews are only often left by certain types of personalitys in my opinion anyway but you cant really track that. The devs should email everyone and have a multi choice tick box, "why you left the game" . Plus, as mentioned previously, steam reviews ONLY account for people who used the steam client, new players. All the people who started the MMO beta didnt use this, so they would have to go out of their way to download a game theat downloads incredibly slow just to leave a review. Most didnt which im sure the numbers will show. 10000s players left because "someone jumped over my walls" man those handfull of people jumping over walls must of been busy.

Plus as i added to my post above, give guids a reason to fight other guilds and they will. The people who go after weak/solo/new players are ones who want sandbox non instanced pvp but dont have the ability/incentive/means to fight other guilds due to the current mechanics.

Make solo/new players valauble to guilds and guilds will protect them.



No matter how much Reason
no Guild has the Power to Protect others on this scale.
Even if every Soloer/small group had Discord to their Overlord.
By the time they can send aid if they care enough in the first place the small group is dead and raided.

Assuming its not the overlord raiding them in the first place.


And well.
Its also a certain type of personality which is very vocal in forums about removing protection and about *Hardcore* and other bullcrab.
Its called Griefers.

Which is not surprising because actual PvPers which want to fight other PvPers usually dont care about protections as they find it boring to massacre and gank players that wont fight back anyways and thus dont need mechanics that allow them to force others into PvP.

The ones usually hindered by such mechanics is Griefers which dont want to fight PvPers and thus need ways to force PvE Players into PvP so they can jerk off on it that they can Grief people that cant fight back against them.



Simple Fact Mate.
Remove PC Protection = Game will Die within 3 Months Top. Because 9 out of 10 People who get their Claim Destroyed will leave.
Allow Overlords to abuse smaller Groups = Game will die in about 6 Months. Because aftereach War some People will lose their stuff and Quit and the more territory changes hands the fewer people will be left in it.

Needless to say that some Guilds wont even care about Territory.
They will just Conquer one Fort of another Guild.
Then Evict everyone and kill them. Before abandoning the Fort and going for the next one.



What your trying to do is to have Wolves herd the Sheep and Rule over them.
Seriously claiming that surely the Wolves wont Massacre the Sheep.
But your forgetting an importand factor.
These Sheep have the ability to Dissappear into thin Air.

And thats what will happen if a Suggestion like yours ever comes to pass.


SonofKitt
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Re: Feedback/Suggestion: Land Control, Military Outpost and Coin Faucets and Sinks,

Post by SonofKitt » 19 Sep 2018, 13:31

No matter how much Reason
no Guild has the Power to Protect others on this scale.
Even if every Soloer/small group had Discord to their Overlord.
By the time they can send aid if they care enough in the first place the small group is dead and raided.


I don't know how many times one of the local smaller guilds has come into our discord asking for help. Sometimes we couldnt help, but alot of the time we instantly sent out 5-10 people hunting for the bandits. Most of the time they hadn't strayed to far and we could kill a few of them or regather lost items which is enough for the small guild most of the time to be happy. Yeah they died but its less frustrating for them if they get some form of retribution at the least. Dying in a video game happens.

Assuming its not the overlord raiding them in the first place.
Propaganda/fear mongering, espically given that there are no overlords currently nor have there ever been, yet you say it like this is something that happens all the time.

And well.
Its also a certain type of personality which is very vocal in forums about removing protection and about *Hardcore* and other bullcrab.
Its called Griefers.


I dont grief, I like players on the servers and griefing for the sake of griefing. In my original suggestion I did not even talk about Personal Claims because that its a Green world feature, and this was catered at the larger player base i.e. Avalon and proposed united map.
I only brought in PC after many people suggested so, and actually proposed a longer time (1-2 weeks) to evict a claim that you currently need (2-4 days by placing a guild claim near one).

Which is not surprising because actual PvPers which want to fight other PvPers usually dont care about protections as they find it boring to massacre and gank players that wont fight back anyways and thus dont need mechanics that allow them to force others into PvP.


I think this is the worse logic i have seen from you. You are getting sloppy although it must be hard to find anything that backs your bias views.


The ones usually hindered by such mechanics is Griefers which dont want to fight PvPers and thus need ways to force PvE Players into PvP so they can jerk off on it that they can Grief people that cant fight back against them.


Griefers are a small percentage of the population. 1% of people in a guild might be griefer but you can be sure that most of these griefers wont be in leadership positions. (unless its a 100% grief guild which is not common and will unlikely to be large)

And I predict (all I can do) that not many of the 1% Greifers will be making decisions about land administraion.


I have updated my Original Post many times from feedback many in these comments (even you Sunleader). I would ask you to go back and have a re-read and tell me how personal claim playstyle would be any worse than it is now.

Given that currently on green worlds any personal claim can be destroyed/looted (not evicted) in 2-4 days by placing a guild monument next to it. And dont say you need 10 characters for a guild because I know people with 30. Characters dont mean anything.

Surely a 7 - 14 day time eviction period where they can deconstruct their buildings and relocate to a kingdom that wants them is better? Surely even you can see past your will to disagree that this would be a positive for solo players. (esp because the idea stems from your feedback)

I doubt genuine solo players would get evicted often under a proper land admin system, and liege lords will mainly be focused on evicted grief claims.


Sunleader
 
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Re: Feedback/Suggestion: Land Control, Military Outpost and Coin Faucets and Sinks,

Post by Sunleader » 19 Sep 2018, 23:50

SonofKitt wrote:
No matter how much Reason
no Guild has the Power to Protect others on this scale.
Even if every Soloer/small group had Discord to their Overlord.
By the time they can send aid if they care enough in the first place the small group is dead and raided.


I don't know how many times one of the local smaller guilds has come into our discord asking for help. Sometimes we couldnt help, but alot of the time we instantly sent out 5-10 people hunting for the bandits. Most of the time they hadn't strayed to far and we could kill a few of them or regather lost items which is enough for the small guild most of the time to be happy. Yeah they died but its less frustrating for them if they get some form of retribution at the least. Dying in a video game happens.

Assuming its not the overlord raiding them in the first place.
Propaganda/fear mongering, espically given that there are no overlords currently nor have there ever been, yet you say it like this is something that happens all the time.

And well.
Its also a certain type of personality which is very vocal in forums about removing protection and about *Hardcore* and other bullcrab.
Its called Griefers.


I dont grief, I like players on the servers and griefing for the sake of griefing. In my original suggestion I did not even talk about Personal Claims because that its a Green world feature, and this was catered at the larger player base i.e. Avalon and proposed united map.
I only brought in PC after many people suggested so, and actually proposed a longer time (1-2 weeks) to evict a claim that you currently need (2-4 days by placing a guild claim near one).

Which is not surprising because actual PvPers which want to fight other PvPers usually dont care about protections as they find it boring to massacre and gank players that wont fight back anyways and thus dont need mechanics that allow them to force others into PvP.


I think this is the worse logic i have seen from you. You are getting sloppy although it must be hard to find anything that backs your bias views.


The ones usually hindered by such mechanics is Griefers which dont want to fight PvPers and thus need ways to force PvE Players into PvP so they can jerk off on it that they can Grief people that cant fight back against them.


Griefers are a small percentage of the population. 1% of people in a guild might be griefer but you can be sure that most of these griefers wont be in leadership positions. (unless its a 100% grief guild which is not common and will unlikely to be large)

And I predict (all I can do) that not many of the 1% Greifers will be making decisions about land administraion.


I have updated my Original Post many times from feedback many in these comments (even you Sunleader). I would ask you to go back and have a re-read and tell me how personal claim playstyle would be any worse than it is now.

Given that currently on green worlds any personal claim can be destroyed/looted (not evicted) in 2-4 days by placing a guild monument next to it. And dont say you need 10 characters for a guild because I know people with 30. Characters dont mean anything.

Surely a 7 - 14 day time eviction period where they can deconstruct their buildings and relocate to a kingdom that wants them is better? Surely even you can see past your will to disagree that this would be a positive for solo players. (esp because the idea stems from your feedback)

I doubt genuine solo players would get evicted often under a proper land admin system, and liege lords will mainly be focused on evicted grief claims.



1.
That doesnt Change the Facts Mate.
Because these People you cant Help are often going to Quit the Game.
Right now they only Die.
In your System on top of Dying they will lose all their Stuff on their Claim.

2.
That your best Excuse to dismiss the Argument ?
You got nothing better ?
Sorry Mate.
But this "Fear Mongering" is unfortunately exactly what your System Allows.
Nothing in your System Prevents the Overlord to just decide one day to take whatever they want from the Surrounding Claims.

Especially if its a Conquered Territory of an Enemy Guild that they know they wont be able to hold for long.
Thus it making sense for them to use Scorched Earth Tactics.

3.
The United Map will also have Green Zones.
And the Longer Time does not help it. Because with the Size of these Territories you Suggest even if you gave it a Month People would be more likely to Quit than to actually Move their Claim.

And Mate I cant tell if you Grief.
But your Suggestion allows Griefing on Mega Scale.
And your apparently Adamant about this ability to Grief others on Mega Scale being absolutely what your Suggestions is Supposed to do.

4.
This Logic is actually Fairly Simple.
You See. I am a PvPer actually.
Thats why I play Games like War Thunder and Americas Army or Heroes and Generals.
But there is an Importand Difference between me as a PvP Player and the Scum in this Game which claims to be PvPers when they are in reality just Griefers and RPKs.
This Difference is that I actually want to Fight other Fighters.
To me there is neither Benefit nor Requirement to Destroy other Peoples Claims or to be able to Climb into these Claims.
Because even if I can do that. It wont be much of a Fight.
It will just be a Massacre of People which didnt Want and didnt Plan to Fight and which in absolute Best Case throw up a Desperate attempt to Defend themselves.
To me as a PvPer this is not really Fun.
Because there is no Challenge in that for me.
If I want to Massacre others which stand no Chance I can go and Kill Bots.

As a PvPer what I want to Fight is other PvPers and these tend to actually come out Fighting over stuff like Outposts or go Roaming.
I dont need to Destroy their Stuff.


Now let me ask you.
Just what People have Fun Destroying other Peoples Stuff and being able to Attack them when they are not Prepared to Fight or being able to Attack People that dont want to Fight.
What People was it again that need Barkboxing and go around Climbing into other Peoples Walls outside of JH.
To kill them when they are not running around in Equipment.

I can tell you what People that is.
Its Griefers.
Because actual PvPers dont do such Bullcrab.

5.
Mate the Difference is not the Time.
The Difference is the Effort Made and the Scale on which you can do this.

Currently on a Green World.
You could in Theory Destroy 1 Personal Claim in 2-4 Days by Placing a Guild Monument.

That Means you need to Invest 2 Days of Work and 10 Characters into it to Remove 1 Single Personal Claim.
And if the Player is Active. He has these 2 Days to just move his Stuff 20-30 Tiles further away.
And Bam he is Safe again.


Now lets Compare that to your Suggestion.
Even considering the Updates.

The Guild can just go ahead and Evict 2 or 3 People each Week.
Without Spending any Effort or Ressources on it.
They can Block quite the Large Area around the Evicted Claim (Which makes no Sense by the way. Why block a 25 Tile Radius of that Area. Blockade Personal Claims are usually about blocking 2 or 3 Tiles. So you dont need to freaking Block such a Large Radius to prevent others from setting a new Claim you could Block maybe a 5 Tile Radius)
And even if the Player is just Evicted from a Single Outpost.
He will be Forced to move like 500 Tiles away.
If its another Kingdom he might end up Moving 5000 Tiles away.
Sorry but thats really going to be a Challenge. Because the amount of stuff you have to Carry for that is Insane.

The Griefing Potential of this is Tremendous.


And it could be Solved better and Easier.
For example.
Every Fort could be given a Small Influence Radius (not in your System but in the old System) like a Guild Monument has.
And in this Influence Radius of maybe 30 Tiles around its Building Spot. It can Freely Destroy PCs during JH.

New Players could also Receive a Popup when Trying to make a Personal Claim there. That they are encroaching on Someones Territory and might be Attacked and Destroyed if they Settle there.

This would Prevent PCs from being used for Blocking Enemy Guilds.
And would at the same time make sure that Soloers and Small Groups dont need to Worry about being thrown out of their Claim Suddenly just because their Overlord Changed.

And Sorry but before you even come with that.
No an Overlord should not be allowed to Control ALL Ressources in his Entire Territory.
Because this would be Guaranteed to be Abused.
As this would not end up a Tool to prevent Enemy Guilds from Blocking ressources but would end up a Tool Taking Ressources away from Soloers and Small Groups.

6.
Mate its nice your Referring to your Updated Suggestion.
But you also Instantly Voiced your Support for People which came in here Suggesting that Private Claim Protection is entirely Removed during JH.
Which gives me an Idea of just what View you got on this Matter and what your Intentions here are.
So dont complain if I move on that.

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WestArcher
 
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Re: Feedback/Suggestion: Land Control, Military Outpost and Coin Faucets and Sinks,

Post by WestArcher » 20 Sep 2018, 01:17

TL;DR: abloobloo muh griefing boogieman.

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Monco
 
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Re: Feedback/Suggestion: Land Control, Military Outpost and Coin Faucets and Sinks,

Post by Monco » 20 Sep 2018, 02:23

Sunleader you have been roasted over and over again, you made yourself a joke to the whole community and it's clear that you don't even know the type of game you're playing, you don't know what Life is Feudal:MMO is and how it is advertised. You are ignorant and delusional.

You define yourself a PvPer because you play "War Thunder"... are you even serious? People in Life is Feudal:MMO want to fight for a reason, fighting for the sake of it is fun but it's not as fun as fighting for something, players should compete more for resources and territory control as Kitt has suggested, competition adds something to the game while you literally define it "griefing".
Go on and define griefing and what it's about in your opinion, I believe you have a very distorted view on that aspect.

Most PvPers prefer "not consensual" PvP simply because it's more exciting and not "standardized", if the only PvP the game would have would be "consensual" and all the fighting would just be for the sake of it we could aswell play an arena game with a similar combat system like chivalry or mount and blade.

You can ask any true PvPer he would tell you that he'll always prefer "non consensual" PvP over "consensual" PvP because the second one is more boring and standardized, it's not open to more possibilities.

You know that feeling when you're in a battle or a siege fighting someone and then all of a sudden a third party joins in and the whole battle takes a whole new perspective and could even become a third way fight, that feeling that anything could happen, I guess you don't or you would have a completely differnt view on PvP.

That's what PvPers want, exciting, dynamic, not "standardized and consensual" PvP, they don't want stale, pre-planned, standardized consensual PvP because it will soon get boring for them.

You simply talk about things you don't know and never experienced and that makes you ignorant and delusional.

I'm telling you once again, maybe it's the fifth time at this point, you don't know the game you're playing, you don't know what Life is Feudal:MMO is, what is the idea behind it and how it was and is advertised as and you should change to Life is Feudal: Your Own or wait for CoE to have a game closer to what you want this game to become.


SonofKitt
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Re: Feedback/Suggestion: Land Control, Military Outpost and Coin Faucets and Sinks,

Post by SonofKitt » 20 Sep 2018, 07:26

That doesn't Change the Facts Mate.
Because these People you cant Help are often going to Quit the Game.
Right now they only Die.
In your System on top of Dying they will lose all their Stuff on their Claim.


There are no facts in your statement above, just a bias opinion. What do you expect? A superman that can fly across the server to save the day. People who attack people on private claims can do so currently, and this frequency has nothing to do with the mechanisms to remove private claims. I think you might be a griefer as you don't want to keep the mechanisms for destroying a Private Claim short. I.e. 2-4 Days so you can grief. Anyone who is more of a causal player and went away for a long weekend could come back and find all his stuff stolen under the current system. That's why I believe a 7-14 days would be better. Gives player plenty of time to build another claim and relocate there. I know you have a will to disagree with anything anyone says here, but surely your will for logic is greater?


Nothing in your System Prevents the Overlord to just decide one day to take whatever they want from the Surrounding Claims.


What could the Liege Lord take?

Land Admin Taxes?
On the green world 20% of Land Income MAX as taxes? BUT the guild still gets 80% MORE coin than they are getting now.

MAX 5% Trade Commission = nothing atm as no one trades.

MAX 20% of outpost tax - so guilds still get 80% or if they don't want to help there Liege Lord (or overlord if they don't like them), they could take all 5 slaves out to low the output of the outposts.

Especially if its a Conquered Territory of an Enemy Guild that they know they wont be able to hold for long.
Thus it making sense for them to use Scorched Earth Tactics.


A Liege Lord would have ZERO rights over the permissions/access for existing guilds. All they could possibly do is to tax the guilds at the highest rate (20% Land, 5% Trade & 20% Outpost) which would ensure that they are dethroned the following week.

In terms of Personal Claims, if you lord comes in and evicts 1-2 claims (with a 7-14 day eviction notice), if the outpost is retaken by the original Lord, that eviction notice could be cancelled. Problem solved, no real harm done to anyone. You have to be open minded, not closed minded.


The United Map will also have Green Zones.


And they will be subject to different rules depending on RED, GREEN and Potentially ORANGE

And the Longer Time does not help it. Because with the Size of these Territories you Suggest even if you gave it a Month People would be more likely to Quit than to actually Move their Claim.


Again, non-factual opinion. I'm of the opinion that you could walk over one fort i.e. 1/5-1/8 of a server node in 20 minutes. And if your military fort gets captured and for some random chance your small private claim gets evicted (unlikely in my opinion as you generate income for that lord and you are a fly in comparison) you could just move over one military fort. Forts will mostly change hands on the frontline, so you could move one fort zone or two to be safer. This would only take like <1 hour if you are walking or quicker if you have a horse.

Image

I also want to suggest a "Looking for" system where players can look for a new home, whether it be a big guild, a small guild, a band or a plot of land for a private claim that would make these transitions for new players and evicted players easier. So no, NOT everyone would HAVE to join the guild as I know you dislike the concept of guilds, community and other people.

AGAIN, I 100% believe that evictions will mostly be used to remove enemy grief claims. You can have a negative/pessimistic view on everything if you like but that'll get you nowhere.

As a PvPer what I want to Fight is other PvPers and these tend to actually come out Fighting over stuff like Outposts or go Roaming.
I dont need to Destroy their Stuff.


I agree, that's why i suggested the Fort system. Currently people drop 10 IBs on bases and delete them to hurt their enemies.

This is not good for the game long term.

With Forts, peoples bases are not the primary target and as such, they would be less likely to be destroyed. People will go after the forts and people will have less anxiety over there bases getting destroyed. It could still happen, but they know its not nearly as likely as it is now.


Mate the Difference is not the Time.
The Difference is the Effort Made and the Scale on which you can do this.

Currently on a Green World.
You could in Theory Destroy 1 Personal Claim in 2-4 Days by Placing a Guild Monument.

That Means you need to Invest 2 Days of Work and 10 Characters into it to Remove 1 Single Personal Claim.
And if the Player is Active. He has these 2 Days to just move his Stuff 20-30 Tiles further away.
And Bam he is Safe again.


Simple, make the current effort required equal that of the eviction effort. Materials required to evict someone.

But you are wrong about the current system, with 100 characters a guild could destroy 10 PRIVATE CLAIMS in 2-4 days. With 200 characters a guild could destroy 20 PRIVATE CLAIMS. And trust me, having 100-200 extra characters is only a matter of REAL MONEY. I.e. Pay to win.

Now lets compared to the suggested system.
Which I suggested 1 -2 (NOT 2-3). 1-2 seems a lot less than 20. I mean, I might being doing my Math wrong but that could be like 18 or 19 LESS. And you could make each eviction cost the same as dropping a guild monument (which is nothing for a guild but whatever)

hey can Block quite the Large Area around the Evicted Claim (Which makes no Sense by the way. Why block a 25 Tile Radius of that Area. Blockade Personal Claims are usually about blocking 2 or 3 Tiles. So you dont need to freaking Block such a Large Radius to prevent others from setting a new Claim you could Block maybe a 5 Tile Radius)


Again, as i said above, this is an anti-grief mechanic that would last only for a week or so. If you evict a Grief claim, they are just going to drop another one (or 5) right next to it. You know, because they are griefers..... The mechanism is not designed to hurt actual solo players, its designed to prevent griefers from continuing to grief.

I think 20-25 tiles restriction for the duration of the eviction and one week afterwards is fine. Also, a 20 tile radius is like less than 1% (probably way less) of the total server node area.

Again, i am sure you will to disagree will get in the way of you actually supporting something that is good for solo players. Like how could it possible hurt a solo player, what they have to move a minimum of 20-25 tiles, what like 30 steps..


The Griefing Potential of this is Tremendous.


The griefing potential of the current system is not just Tremendous but LIMITLESS yet the world still carries on because most people are not as bad as YOU like. The system suggested means you theoretically could evict 1-2 claims in one fort area (off guild land claims as you'd you expect as a Liege Lord has no control of guild claims), where currently you could nearly DESTROY THEM ALL by placing guild monuments in 2-4 days. Again, this doesn't happy because people aren't as bad as you are making them out to be.


Suggesting that Private Claim Protection is entirely Removed during JH.


Please quote me when where I said those exact words. I.e. "I think removal of private claim protection during JH is the best idea ever"
Because I haven't. You are clutching at straws here.


What I have said to others:
You would want to protect the property/items of the little guy.


But for it to work you need to protect the rights of a solo player whilst also allowing mechanisms to deal with troll/grief private claims


You are too stubborn and your will to disagree will cause you to apposed suggestions that will actually benefit the people you claim to be trying to help then you are a lost cause.


Sunleader
 
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Re: Feedback/Suggestion: Land Control, Military Outpost and Coin Faucets and Sinks,

Post by Sunleader » 20 Sep 2018, 13:14

SonofKitt wrote:
That doesn't Change the Facts Mate.
Because these People you cant Help are often going to Quit the Game.
Right now they only Die.
In your System on top of Dying they will lose all their Stuff on their Claim.


There are no facts in your statement above, just a bias opinion. What do you expect? A superman that can fly across the server to save the day. People who attack people on private claims can do so currently, and this frequency has nothing to do with the mechanisms to remove private claims. I think you might be a griefer as you don't want to keep the mechanisms for destroying a Private Claim short. I.e. 2-4 Days so you can grief. Anyone who is more of a causal player and went away for a long weekend could come back and find all his stuff stolen under the current system. That's why I believe a 7-14 days would be better. Gives player plenty of time to build another claim and relocate there. I know you have a will to disagree with anything anyone says here, but surely your will for logic is greater?


Nothing in your System Prevents the Overlord to just decide one day to take whatever they want from the Surrounding Claims.


What could the Liege Lord take?

Land Admin Taxes?
On the green world 20% of Land Income MAX as taxes? BUT the guild still gets 80% MORE coin than they are getting now.

MAX 5% Trade Commission = nothing atm as no one trades.

MAX 20% of outpost tax - so guilds still get 80% or if they don't want to help there Liege Lord (or overlord if they don't like them), they could take all 5 slaves out to low the output of the outposts.

Especially if its a Conquered Territory of an Enemy Guild that they know they wont be able to hold for long.
Thus it making sense for them to use Scorched Earth Tactics.


A Liege Lord would have ZERO rights over the permissions/access for existing guilds. All they could possibly do is to tax the guilds at the highest rate (20% Land, 5% Trade & 20% Outpost) which would ensure that they are dethroned the following week.

In terms of Personal Claims, if you lord comes in and evicts 1-2 claims (with a 7-14 day eviction notice), if the outpost is retaken by the original Lord, that eviction notice could be cancelled. Problem solved, no real harm done to anyone. You have to be open minded, not closed minded.


The United Map will also have Green Zones.


And they will be subject to different rules depending on RED, GREEN and Potentially ORANGE

And the Longer Time does not help it. Because with the Size of these Territories you Suggest even if you gave it a Month People would be more likely to Quit than to actually Move their Claim.


Again, non-factual opinion. I'm of the opinion that you could walk over one fort i.e. 1/5-1/8 of a server node in 20 minutes. And if your military fort gets captured and for some random chance your small private claim gets evicted (unlikely in my opinion as you generate income for that lord and you are a fly in comparison) you could just move over one military fort. Forts will mostly change hands on the frontline, so you could move one fort zone or two to be safer. This would only take like <1 hour if you are walking or quicker if you have a horse.

Image

I also want to suggest a "Looking for" system where players can look for a new home, whether it be a big guild, a small guild, a band or a plot of land for a private claim that would make these transitions for new players and evicted players easier. So no, NOT everyone would HAVE to join the guild as I know you dislike the concept of guilds, community and other people.

AGAIN, I 100% believe that evictions will mostly be used to remove enemy grief claims. You can have a negative/pessimistic view on everything if you like but that'll get you nowhere.

As a PvPer what I want to Fight is other PvPers and these tend to actually come out Fighting over stuff like Outposts or go Roaming.
I dont need to Destroy their Stuff.


I agree, that's why i suggested the Fort system. Currently people drop 10 IBs on bases and delete them to hurt their enemies.

This is not good for the game long term.

With Forts, peoples bases are not the primary target and as such, they would be less likely to be destroyed. People will go after the forts and people will have less anxiety over there bases getting destroyed. It could still happen, but they know its not nearly as likely as it is now.


Mate the Difference is not the Time.
The Difference is the Effort Made and the Scale on which you can do this.

Currently on a Green World.
You could in Theory Destroy 1 Personal Claim in 2-4 Days by Placing a Guild Monument.

That Means you need to Invest 2 Days of Work and 10 Characters into it to Remove 1 Single Personal Claim.
And if the Player is Active. He has these 2 Days to just move his Stuff 20-30 Tiles further away.
And Bam he is Safe again.


Simple, make the current effort required equal that of the eviction effort. Materials required to evict someone.

But you are wrong about the current system, with 100 characters a guild could destroy 10 PRIVATE CLAIMS in 2-4 days. With 200 characters a guild could destroy 20 PRIVATE CLAIMS. And trust me, having 100-200 extra characters is only a matter of REAL MONEY. I.e. Pay to win.

Now lets compared to the suggested system.
Which I suggested 1 -2 (NOT 2-3). 1-2 seems a lot less than 20. I mean, I might being doing my Math wrong but that could be like 18 or 19 LESS. And you could make each eviction cost the same as dropping a guild monument (which is nothing for a guild but whatever)

hey can Block quite the Large Area around the Evicted Claim (Which makes no Sense by the way. Why block a 25 Tile Radius of that Area. Blockade Personal Claims are usually about blocking 2 or 3 Tiles. So you dont need to freaking Block such a Large Radius to prevent others from setting a new Claim you could Block maybe a 5 Tile Radius)


Again, as i said above, this is an anti-grief mechanic that would last only for a week or so. If you evict a Grief claim, they are just going to drop another one (or 5) right next to it. You know, because they are griefers..... The mechanism is not designed to hurt actual solo players, its designed to prevent griefers from continuing to grief.

I think 20-25 tiles restriction for the duration of the eviction and one week afterwards is fine. Also, a 20 tile radius is like less than 1% (probably way less) of the total server node area.

Again, i am sure you will to disagree will get in the way of you actually supporting something that is good for solo players. Like how could it possible hurt a solo player, what they have to move a minimum of 20-25 tiles, what like 30 steps..


The Griefing Potential of this is Tremendous.


The griefing potential of the current system is not just Tremendous but LIMITLESS yet the world still carries on because most people are not as bad as YOU like. The system suggested means you theoretically could evict 1-2 claims in one fort area (off guild land claims as you'd you expect as a Liege Lord has no control of guild claims), where currently you could nearly DESTROY THEM ALL by placing guild monuments in 2-4 days. Again, this doesn't happy because people aren't as bad as you are making them out to be.


Suggesting that Private Claim Protection is entirely Removed during JH.


Please quote me when where I said those exact words. I.e. "I think removal of private claim protection during JH is the best idea ever"
Because I haven't. You are clutching at straws here.


What I have said to others:
You would want to protect the property/items of the little guy.


But for it to work you need to protect the rights of a solo player whilst also allowing mechanisms to deal with troll/grief private claims


You are too stubborn and your will to disagree will cause you to apposed suggestions that will actually benefit the people you claim to be trying to help then you are a lost cause.


1.
I am Stating Facts as Facts.
You Denying Reality doesnt change them.

And No.
I expect a Proper Game Mechanic that Prevents Griefing so you dont need to Rely on things that do not work.

And Oh Yeah. Surely I am a Griefer because I would like to make Private Claims entirely Invulnearble except for Removal of Griefer Claims by GMs if they obviously Block something thats not supposed to be Blocked.

I think your the one Grasping for Straws there dont ya think...


2.
You Forgot the most Importand Part.
The Claim itself.
As he can Simply Evict People and Remove their Claims to then Place his Own.


3.
Oh Yeah Sure. Because some Small Guild of 20 People could Surely just Take the Fort from an Overlord which is was able to take the Fort from another Guild that was likely one of the 150 People Giants.

If a Guild could just take out a Fort like that the entire System would not Exist.

And Mate.
IF the other Party can retake the Outpost in that time.


You See.
If I wanted to Grief others.
I would make a Guild.
Not have any own Territory and then Conquer one Outpost.
Grief the Hell out of it.
Then when beaten out of it maybe 3-4 Weeks later go to the next Outpost.

The Joke is.
Some Guilds wont even do it to Grief others.
But will Grief others on Purpose to Provoke Attacks.
Because they will turn up Griefing to Eleven to make sure that next Week they are Attacked and can have Fun Killing People.

Unfortunately this Fun for them comes at the Expense of a ton of Unrelated Groups then potentially Quitting the Game.


4.
Your Suggestion Aims at the entire Map doesnt it.
If you Exclude Green Servers and Green Areas I am immediately Out of here.
Because then I simply said dont care.


5.
Thats Bullcrab.
No offense.
But my Personal Claim is currently 80 Tiles.
It has a Warehouse, 5 Horsecarts, a Barn and a House.
As well as some Coops and a Wood Pile.

In Terms of Load assuming I can Deconstruct the Buildings.
I would come out on roughly about 80.000 Stones of Weight.
15k from Storehouse another 15k from Horsecarts, 10k from different Chests, Boxes, Barrels etc.
And then 40k of Building Materials. (Mostly Building Logs because I dont have Mortal as I got no Herbalist)
I would also need to somehow Transport all of the Boxes and Logs around.

If we Assume I can somehow throw Boxes together with Carts I might get about 4k per Tour.
Makes a Total of 20 Tours.

And Horse Carts are not Exactly very Fast.
Especially not if you dont have a Road.
Traveling just 1/4 of the Server takes 5-10 Minutes currently.
And I know that because I am doing it Daily to get Stone.
Now in your case I might end up needing to move an Entire Server or Even more.

Because sure the Frontline might move one by one.
But if I move to the next Fort and end up Evicted in 2 Weeks again I havnt exactly Won anything.


Then there is the Problem that I need to Pay and Hold a Second Claim in that Entire Time.
And I need to somehow Survive Transporting my entire Stuff around.
Which might be hard because the guys Evicting me might like the Idea to come and Kill me while I try to carry away my Stuff.

Sorry Man.
But this has way too many Holes in it.


6.
Its Fine if you Believe that.
Thing is I dont believe that.
You See I played such Games quite alot.
And If I learned anything in that time.
Its that unless its Guaranteed by Game Mechanics the Crab will be abused out of of it sooner or later.

As for a New System to look for a New Home.
I.ll refrain from Commenting till you have it.

You See.
If for example the System would be that after a Eviction you can Set up a New Claim somewhere else.
And your Stuff will just be Transported there.

Then Hey no Problem with me.
Might be a Little Annoying to Terraform a New Spot.
But hey who cares its not like I am losing anything.

Stuff could just be Send to the New PC Monument and be taken out there and be Placed.

But currently with the Idea that this ends up with People being Forced to move all their Stuff around.
Yeah no Sorry. Not happening.


7.
Yes.
And Thats why I actually Support the Idea of Forts and Territorial Control with Taxes.

I just dont Support two things.
A.
The Ability to Evict Personal Claims. Because this is Lethal for Soloers and Small Groups.
B.
The Ability to Tax Money.
No Offense but we SERIOUSLY got enough Money in the Game.
We dont need any Additional Income Sources.
Much less one which is supposed to be Balanced by Reducing Income for the Methods which the Soloers and Small Groups are forced to use like Selling to the Crown.

Because no I dont think this will Reduce Targeting of other Guilds.
Most Guilds wont have the Power to take an Outpost either ways.
So they wont care.
Outposts will likely be Zerged.
Meaning that they will be Controlled by the Large 150 Member+ Guilds.


8.
Yes.
With 100 Characters.
Assuming you can just Spare 100 Characters sitting in 10 other Guilds Building Guild Monuments.
Assuming that there is neither other Guild Monuments blocking it nor other Private Claims nearby blocking it.

(I was actually under threat of some Guild which wanted to delete my Claim doing that. But I got Characters as well. So I simply placed Claims in 40 Tiles Distance around my Claim.
So these Guilds would have needed to First delete that one.
If that happened I would have set new Mini Claims 25 tiles etc.
Costing them alot of Nerves and time. Needless to say they never tried.)

And by your System this can be done as well.
Because who says that a Guild cant make 10 different Guilds and control 10 different Outposts to Evict 20 People at once.

And unlike now.
These People cant even Defend.
Cause even if they are placed near a Guild Monument of a small Friendly Guild. Which blocks creation of another Guild Monument in range.
They can be Evicted.


Now for Fairness Said.
This System is already alot Better than it was at First.
But its not Sufficient yet to make me Agree on it.

(And there is still the Money Issue. Seriously we dont need more Income for large Guilds....)


9.
Yes and as I said.
This Mechanic works perfectly fine with a 5 Tile Radius.
I mean sorry but 25 Tiles Radius is basicly a Guild Claim thats Blocked.
Nobody can even make a PC that Size.
And again.
Griefer Claims usually block like 2 Tiles of Access to something.
You if you Block 5 Tiles Radius this will guarantee that whatever they blocked cant be blocked again.


In the First Place.
Griefer Claims are not very useful for anything further away from a Guild.
I mean sorry but you cant demand that someone does not use a Claim to mine Ressources like 300 tiles away from your Outpost.

Thats why I said. To simply Limit Evictions to a 30-50 Tiles Radius around the Outpost Claim.
Or 100 Tile Radius around the Outpost Monument.
And then give a Warning that this Area is considered a Military Restricted Zone and that you might be Evicted.

Problem Solved without any such Problems.


10.
Currently the Griefing Potential is too high as well.
I agree on that.
But right now it at least Requires Effort and Cost.

And you can Defend yourself against it.
As well as its effect being Limited cause you move 20 tiles further and they have to Build a new Monument or Upgrade theirs costing lots of Money.


11.
I Apologize for that claim.
You actually Supported the Ideas of Arrok.
I was Enraged and had taken it for Support to West Archer.
A Known Griefer and RPK who has been at odds with me for like a Year already.

That one is my Mistake.
Sorry for that.


12.
In my Eyes your the one who is Stubborn.
Your Blinded by your own Suggestion being unable to See its Flaws.
A Typical Phenomenom for People that Create Ideas.
Thats why its adviced to never be the Judge for your own Creations. As your just too Biased to possibly See the Problems.

Your System does not Help the People I want to Help.
It just adds an additional Way to Grief them.

Thats why I am Opposing it.
I have made several Suggestions already on how to prevent that as well and have stated why your Ideas are not going to prevent it.

Your Ideas would "Limit" it sure.
But not Prevent it.

I want it Prevented entirely.
Not just Limited.


SonofKitt
Zealous Believer
 
Posts: 130
Joined: 03 Dec 2015, 06:17

Re: Feedback/Suggestion: Land Control, Military Outpost and Coin Faucets and Sinks,

Post by SonofKitt » 20 Sep 2018, 14:56

Its really hard to follow your text when you just type 1-12 inside of quoting what I have said. I'm not sure if this is your intention or not but its easier to reply when you quote in this way. Both for you and me.

1. I am Stating Facts as Facts.
You Denying Reality doesnt change them.


Shoe me some facts, because you typing stuff on a keyboard is just your opinion. We are going to go arround in circles until you actually provide the "facts" you speck of"

You Forgot the most Importand Part.
The Claim itself.
As he can Simply Evict People and Remove their Claims to then Place his Own.


You cannot evict a guild claim, I have not suggested to change the current IB's/delete method (not that I agree with it) but that a whole other kettle of fish. In terms of personal claims, You can already get rid of personal claims. But, to keep you happy in this theoretical discussion of feedback, i have updated the original post under "Red v Orange v Green" to have;

Private Claims on Green Tiles - The current system of guild claim dropping near private claims will remain, for Sunleader's personal pleasure.


and in Private claim section;

- So Sunleader can sleep at night and at the expense of the greater LiF community- Green World Private Claims are not part of the Land Admin System - As such, they do not generate coin.


Happy?

The Joke is.
Some Guilds wont even do it to Grief others.
But will Grief others on Purpose to Provoke Attacks.
Because they will turn up Griefing to Eleven to make sure that next Week they are Attacked and can have Fun Killing People.

Unfortunately this Fun for them comes at the Expense of a ton of Unrelated Groups then potentially Quitting the Game.


Not 100% sure what you are trying to say here. The idea behind the Forts are so that guilds fight over them instead of hunting solos/new players etc. The Skirmishes only relate to guild members of the guild (and maybe there allies) controlling the fort. Not random solos, there is no in-built incentive for that.

4. Your Suggestion Aims at the entire Map doesn't it.
If you Exclude Green Servers and Green Areas I am immediately Out of here. Because then I simply said dont care.


I can only make concept suggestions. Nothing I suggest is even remotely likely to come to past. The developers make these decisions about how each feature they implement is applied to the different types of world. Green will always be the most protection, while Red will have the least. One day they might be a orange. But regardless, I don't get to specific about exact values as that is the developers choice. I cant suggest potential parameters, but the developers will always be the ones deciding the values and if they think any other parameters are required.

Looking at the patches since December till now, you can be rest assured that the Green will continue to remain a very protected and friendly place for the people that want to play there.

It has a Warehouse, 5 Horsecarts, a Barn and a House.


Firstly, most new players don't have this setup, that's a big personal claim with a lot of buildings.

That's why I said "the more expensive resources" could be saved, not all. Locks, doors, windows etc. I mean you could allow for all materials to be savaged and the person has to make a choice how much they want to take with them. Probably a better system.

But luckily for you, the suggestion now says Green Worlds cannot be evicted and therefore don't have the option to dismantle a building. You'll just have destroy it so that the person, who is trying to claim your claim with a guild monument, cannot get it out of spite.


7. Yes. And Thats why I actually Support the Idea of Forts and Territorial Control with Taxes.

I just dont Support two things.
A. The Ability to Evict Personal Claims. Because this is Lethal for Soloers and Small Groups.
B. The Ability to Tax Money.


Wait, so you do support
Territorial Control with Taxes
or you dont support it?

No Offense but we SERIOUSLY got enough Money in the Game. We dont need any Additional Income Sources.


I KNOW THERE IS TOO MUCH MONEY IN CIRCULATION!!

Does that mean i think its good? NO
Does that mean I think infinite sources of income (Sell to the Crown and Arena) need to be nerfed... YES
Could a more fixed source of coin be introduced? YES

And your argument that all the taxes are only going to the big guilds. These big guilds would need use this money to fund wars for fun. The will look to the market to buy weapons, animals, food, crops, armors, horses etc. Again this would only happen if they implement a proper scarcity system (not necessarily the one I suggested) but one that would result in same players like yourself selling your trades to the market.

Its how all MMOs work. In WoW, solo players can gather herbs that are brought by crafting alchemists who make potions that are then sold to raiders who want the advantage in defeating bosses in raids.

Its all about time = money. Currently its easier for guilds to get everything themselves, and this is bad for the economy.

The developers would 100% need to check the numbers constantly to make sure that the money flowed in a circle. If not, then they would have the tweak things. Reduce Land Income and or Increase Coin sinks for build guilds.

9.Yes and as I said.
This Mechanic works perfectly fine with a 5 Tile Radius.
I mean sorry but 25 Tiles Radius is basicly a Guild Claim thats Blocked. Nobody can even make a PC that Size.
And again. Griefer Claims usually block like 2 Tiles of Access to something. You if you Block 5 Tiles Radius this will guarantee that whatever they blocked cant be blocked again.


5-10 could work - again, the developers could adjust based on feedback - I just gave it a number for context.

12. In my Eyes your the one who is Stubborn. Your Blinded by your own Suggestion being unable to See its Flaws. A Typical Phenomenom for People that Create Ideas. Thats why its adviced to never be the Judge for your own Creations. As your just too Biased to possibly See the Problems. Your System does not Help the People I want to Help. It just adds an additional Way to Grief them.

That's why I am opposing it. I have made several Suggestions already on how to prevent that as well and have stated why your Ideas are not going to prevent it. Your Ideas would "Limit" it sure.
But not Prevent it. I want it Prevented entirely. Not just Limited.


I have change my post many times based of other people opinions, even yours before. I want the best for this game for every play style.

I have made changes (see below) in my theoretical post, exceptions specifically for you Sunleader;

So Sunleader can sleep at night and at the expense of the greater LiF community- Green World Private Claims are not part of the Land Admin System - As such, they do not generate Land Income.


Private Claims on Green Tiles - The current system of guild claim dropping near private claims will remain for Sunleader.


Is this enough? I mean this post is about the concept. If the developers ever even thought of implementing a system even remotely similar to this they would be the ones with the control. It is a concept, nothing more. They invented RED v GREEN worlds so they would ensure that protections in place would be sufficient to keep the players in both worlds happy if they ever implemented a concept.

I'm stubborn about it because I care about the game as a whole, every play style included. I do listen to people who have valid constructive input. I even try to read your posts and listen to what you have to say even after proving time after time to me that you only care about Your Own situation.

You say "Your System does not Help the People I want to Help." But the only person you want to help is yourself and your are not willing to meet the rest of the play styles in the middle.


Sunleader
 
Posts: 180
Joined: 04 Dec 2017, 08:23

Re: Feedback/Suggestion: Land Control, Military Outpost and Coin Faucets and Sinks,

Post by Sunleader » 21 Sep 2018, 01:33

SonofKitt wrote:Its really hard to follow your text when you just type 1-12 inside of quoting what I have said. I'm not sure if this is your intention or not but its easier to reply when you quote in this way. Both for you and me.

1. I am Stating Facts as Facts.
You Denying Reality doesnt change them.


Shoe me some facts, because you typing stuff on a keyboard is just your opinion. We are going to go arround in circles until you actually provide the "facts" you speck of"

You Forgot the most Importand Part.
The Claim itself.
As he can Simply Evict People and Remove their Claims to then Place his Own.


You cannot evict a guild claim, I have not suggested to change the current IB's/delete method (not that I agree with it) but that a whole other kettle of fish. In terms of personal claims, You can already get rid of personal claims. But, to keep you happy in this theoretical discussion of feedback, i have updated the original post under "Red v Orange v Green" to have;

Private Claims on Green Tiles - The current system of guild claim dropping near private claims will remain, for Sunleader's personal pleasure.


and in Private claim section;

- So Sunleader can sleep at night and at the expense of the greater LiF community- Green World Private Claims are not part of the Land Admin System - As such, they do not generate coin.


Happy?

The Joke is.
Some Guilds wont even do it to Grief others.
But will Grief others on Purpose to Provoke Attacks.
Because they will turn up Griefing to Eleven to make sure that next Week they are Attacked and can have Fun Killing People.

Unfortunately this Fun for them comes at the Expense of a ton of Unrelated Groups then potentially Quitting the Game.


Not 100% sure what you are trying to say here. The idea behind the Forts are so that guilds fight over them instead of hunting solos/new players etc. The Skirmishes only relate to guild members of the guild (and maybe there allies) controlling the fort. Not random solos, there is no in-built incentive for that.

4. Your Suggestion Aims at the entire Map doesn't it.
If you Exclude Green Servers and Green Areas I am immediately Out of here. Because then I simply said dont care.


I can only make concept suggestions. Nothing I suggest is even remotely likely to come to past. The developers make these decisions about how each feature they implement is applied to the different types of world. Green will always be the most protection, while Red will have the least. One day they might be a orange. But regardless, I don't get to specific about exact values as that is the developers choice. I cant suggest potential parameters, but the developers will always be the ones deciding the values and if they think any other parameters are required.

Looking at the patches since December till now, you can be rest assured that the Green will continue to remain a very protected and friendly place for the people that want to play there.

It has a Warehouse, 5 Horsecarts, a Barn and a House.


Firstly, most new players don't have this setup, that's a big personal claim with a lot of buildings.

That's why I said "the more expensive resources" could be saved, not all. Locks, doors, windows etc. I mean you could allow for all materials to be savaged and the person has to make a choice how much they want to take with them. Probably a better system.

But luckily for you, the suggestion now says Green Worlds cannot be evicted and therefore don't have the option to dismantle a building. You'll just have destroy it so that the person, who is trying to claim your claim with a guild monument, cannot get it out of spite.


7. Yes. And Thats why I actually Support the Idea of Forts and Territorial Control with Taxes.

I just dont Support two things.
A. The Ability to Evict Personal Claims. Because this is Lethal for Soloers and Small Groups.
B. The Ability to Tax Money.


Wait, so you do support
Territorial Control with Taxes
or you dont support it?

No Offense but we SERIOUSLY got enough Money in the Game. We dont need any Additional Income Sources.


I KNOW THERE IS TOO MUCH MONEY IN CIRCULATION!!

Does that mean i think its good? NO
Does that mean I think infinite sources of income (Sell to the Crown and Arena) need to be nerfed... YES
Could a more fixed source of coin be introduced? YES

And your argument that all the taxes are only going to the big guilds. These big guilds would need use this money to fund wars for fun. The will look to the market to buy weapons, animals, food, crops, armors, horses etc. Again this would only happen if they implement a proper scarcity system (not necessarily the one I suggested) but one that would result in same players like yourself selling your trades to the market.

Its how all MMOs work. In WoW, solo players can gather herbs that are brought by crafting alchemists who make potions that are then sold to raiders who want the advantage in defeating bosses in raids.

Its all about time = money. Currently its easier for guilds to get everything themselves, and this is bad for the economy.

The developers would 100% need to check the numbers constantly to make sure that the money flowed in a circle. If not, then they would have the tweak things. Reduce Land Income and or Increase Coin sinks for build guilds.

9.Yes and as I said.
This Mechanic works perfectly fine with a 5 Tile Radius.
I mean sorry but 25 Tiles Radius is basicly a Guild Claim thats Blocked. Nobody can even make a PC that Size.
And again. Griefer Claims usually block like 2 Tiles of Access to something. You if you Block 5 Tiles Radius this will guarantee that whatever they blocked cant be blocked again.


5-10 could work - again, the developers could adjust based on feedback - I just gave it a number for context.

12. In my Eyes your the one who is Stubborn. Your Blinded by your own Suggestion being unable to See its Flaws. A Typical Phenomenom for People that Create Ideas. Thats why its adviced to never be the Judge for your own Creations. As your just too Biased to possibly See the Problems. Your System does not Help the People I want to Help. It just adds an additional Way to Grief them.

That's why I am opposing it. I have made several Suggestions already on how to prevent that as well and have stated why your Ideas are not going to prevent it. Your Ideas would "Limit" it sure.
But not Prevent it. I want it Prevented entirely. Not just Limited.


I have change my post many times based of other people opinions, even yours before. I want the best for this game for every play style.

I have made changes (see below) in my theoretical post, exceptions specifically for you Sunleader;

So Sunleader can sleep at night and at the expense of the greater LiF community- Green World Private Claims are not part of the Land Admin System - As such, they do not generate Land Income.


Private Claims on Green Tiles - The current system of guild claim dropping near private claims will remain for Sunleader.


Is this enough? I mean this post is about the concept. If the developers ever even thought of implementing a system even remotely similar to this they would be the ones with the control. It is a concept, nothing more. They invented RED v GREEN worlds so they would ensure that protections in place would be sufficient to keep the players in both worlds happy if they ever implemented a concept.

I'm stubborn about it because I care about the game as a whole, every play style included. I do listen to people who have valid constructive input. I even try to read your posts and listen to what you have to say even after proving time after time to me that you only care about Your Own situation.

You say "Your System does not Help the People I want to Help." But the only person you want to help is yourself and your are not willing to meet the rest of the play styles in the middle.


Difference of Opinion.
You See. If you would just use the Numbers as well so we both know to what we are Referencing there would be no Problem.
I for my Part dont exactly commit the entire Post to Memory.
And in my Quote where I check I cant read your Quotes of me.
So I am always forced to open a Second Page or look for the Post below so I actually even know what your Talking about.


1.
Thats what I am doing.
Again. You denying it doesnt change them.


2.
No but you can Evict a Personal Claim.
Not that I am surprised that once more you only care for the Guild Claims and other Larger Groups.
But you see to me its exactly this Private Claim thats going to be abused by Griefers.

And Mate.
Its fairly Meaningless to make a Mock Message to me while the remaining part of your Suggestion remains Untouched.


3.
What I am trying to say is the thing that you keep not considering.
This is a Game.
Its not Reality.
People Play the Game for Fun.
Now what is Fun for RPKs/Griefers etc again ?
Yep Killing People which are weaker than them.

So what will happen.
Is that Guilds will Conquer an Outpost not to get Taxes or to be a Lord.
But just so they can Raise all Taxes to Maximum and Start Evicting and Terrorizing People in that Territory.
Making sure that they are Attacked and thus can have Fights each Week Defending their Fort.

Reality does not work in Games Mate.
Because the Mindset is entirely Different.
You cant Scare someone with Death. If I got the Choice between being Killed somewhere or losing my Stuff.
I.ll rather be Killed somewhere cause thats less Damage for me in the Game.
So the Threat of Death does not work in Games.

And this is the same.
You Expect Lords to care for getting Taxes and being the Ruler and thus act Responsible with it.

But thats just not how this Works.
The Guys being Lords there are Players.
They will use the System however they can get Fun out of it.

And if they are People who want Fighting for Fun. They wont care about having Peasants in their Lands. They will just make sure that everyone hates em enough to come and Challenge them in their Fort.


4.
I would not be so sure about that.
You see the Devs actually Check on the Forums quite a bit.
Something you notice especially when you make Smaller Suggestions or Complains which then get Fixed suddenly and suspiocisly close to how it was complained about.

Now of course an Big Complex System like this wont be added entirely like that.
But its very likely that the Devs reading it given they like the idea. Will take parts of it.

And Devs are still Humans. They aint some sort of Superman which will see everything and anything. If sold right they might very well take the System and not notice some of the Fatal Flaws.

So its Importand to make Suggestions as close to what it should be like later.
Because otherwise you might get unwanted effects.

The Devs will likely think about that and flatten out the rough edges. But even they can miss something.
So the less trouble with the suggestion itself the less likely future problems.


5.
Soloers are not forcibly New Players.
Neither are small Groups.

And Mate the one being Spiteful there is you.
I really think you need some Butthurt Cream lol


6.
I Support Taxes yes.
Taxes of Outpost Production and Potentially Indirect Taxes that Increase Claim Cost for Guilds while Decreasing Claim Cost for the Outpost Owner.

I do not Support Taxes that create additional Money Income for the Overlord.
Because as I said. We got more then enough Money Sources.
We dont need them.

In a Sense you could see it like that. (Pls note not actualy Suggestion but just an explanation for how I mean it)
I think that Outposts should be Really Expensive to Maintain.
Costing like 20 Gold Coins each Week.
But you can Set a Tax Level in your Territory.
Each Tax level is 5% Increments with a Max of 30%
Private Claims 1/3 of that Percentage cause they are freaking Expensive already and would otherwise be too unbalanced.
The Claims Cost would go up respectively.
So if a PC Costs 1 Gold per Week it will cost 1.1 Gold per Week at 30% Tax Rate (1/3 being 10%)
Guild Claim that Costs 3 Gold Coins each Week will cost 3.9 Gold Coins. (Full 30%)
This Additional Cost is then going to the Overlord.

However. This Money is not Added to the Overlord Guilds Treasury.
Instead it will Immediately be Sacrificed to the Forts Monument.
So the Forts cost will be Reduced. And the Fort will be Paid for.

Without any Money being Created.
In Opposite it will result in another Money Sink.
And at the same time make it very Importand that the Overlord does not try to get Rid of Guilds in his Territory as otherwise he will end up Paying quite alot of Money for his Fort.

What will go to the Guilds Tresury will be a Tax of the Production of Outposts of course.


9.
See and thats where I disagree.
Because right now.
Money for Large Guild ? Not a Problem. Can get it in Vast Quantities.
Money for Solo Players and Small Groups ?
Big Problem its almost impossible to get enough to even Buy Ressources. Usually its a Challenge to just Finance a Larger Private Claim.

So Nerfing Selling to the Crown etc is not Acceptable.
And Creating new Big Income Sources for Big Guilds is even less Acceptable.

Because it will throw Smaller Groups and Soloers out of the Economy as they can simply not really keep up with Paying their Claims and make enough Profit to buy anything.


10.
Fund Wars for Fun ?
No Offense but a War in your System costs nothing in terms of Money.
It costs only Ressources.

And Mate I told you.
Realistic Systems dont work in Games.

Your Idea might be that the Soloers etc can Just Sell to the Guilds.
But your Forgetting a Giant Part here.

The Guilds get Taxes which are X% of the Cost that the Soloers have.
So the Soloers cannot possibly get enough Money out of the Large Guilds as to Finance themselves.

Moreover the Smaller Groups are the ones most Dependent on Buying things because they dont have the Size to get it themselves.

Thats why your System will result in Large Guilds having it Super Easy to get Large amounts of Money.
While Small Groups will end up Scrambling just to get their Claim Paid.

Exploitation of the Weak works in Reality because in Reality they got no Choice.
Its not working in Games. Because in Games the Big and Strong just end up alone.

Thats why MMOs work by having Infinite Money Sources like Monsters etc. Constantly Dropping lots of Gold.


11.
As I said. This Context is very Importand.


12.
Mate no Offense. But you being Spiteful and using your Suggestion to Run comments at me is not really helping.
Its not exactly showing your Openmindedness either.


13.
The People I want to Help is People like me yes.
Small Groups and Solo Players which are already Heavily Disadvantaged in this Game.
And your System is Driving People like me out of this Game.


SonofKitt
Zealous Believer
 
Posts: 130
Joined: 03 Dec 2015, 06:17

Re: Feedback/Suggestion: Land Control, Military Outpost and Coin Faucets and Sinks,

Post by SonofKitt » 21 Sep 2018, 15:08

Sunleader Sunleader Sunleader....

It seems that this conversation is going nowhere, what a surprise.

Just like last time, we have different opinions and as such, I will agree to disagree with you once again.

You have a right to your own opinion, just like everyone else, so please make your way to the voting area and down-vote the suggestion, if you haven't already.

I thank you for your 25 comments/feedback comprising of 11442 words, they were a pleasure to read, each and every word...

Considering that the original post (quite long itself) was only 3961 words, if you actually believe in your opinions and are not just here to argue for arguments sake, I implore you to make your own post/suggestion in the forums or voting area.

If, as you say, the vast majority of the LiF:MMO community thinks similar to you, then your version will get much more positive comments/up-votes than this version. It might even let the developers know that there are 2 sides to the conversation, which is your intent.

Be sure to have the context and the values exact and not conceptual and as they are important (importand in german-english) and people will often base there whole arguments around conceptual placeholder values (from my experience).

I look forward to your suggestions in the forum/voting section and will even promise you that I will only comment once, on it with my feedback/opinion (or not at all). All the best.

Kitt


Sunleader
 
Posts: 180
Joined: 04 Dec 2017, 08:23

Re: Feedback/Suggestion: Land Control, Military Outpost and Coin Faucets and Sinks,

Post by Sunleader » 21 Sep 2018, 21:39

SonofKitt wrote:Sunleader Sunleader Sunleader....

It seems that this conversation is going nowhere, what a surprise.

Just like last time, we have different opinions and as such, I will agree to disagree with you once again.

You have a right to your own opinion, just like everyone else, so please make your way to the voting area and down-vote the suggestion, if you haven't already.

I thank you for your 25 comments/feedback comprising of 11442 words, they were a pleasure to read, each and every word...

Considering that the original post (quite long itself) was only 3961 words, if you actually believe in your opinions and are not just here to argue for arguments sake, I implore you to make your own post/suggestion in the forums or voting area.

If, as you say, the vast majority of the LiF:MMO community thinks similar to you, then your version will get much more positive comments/up-votes than this version. It might even let the developers know that there are 2 sides to the conversation, which is your intent.

Be sure to have the context and the values exact and not conceptual and as they are important (importand in german-english) and people will often base there whole arguments around conceptual placeholder values (from my experience).

I look forward to your suggestions in the forum/voting section and will even promise you that I will only comment once, on it with my feedback/opinion (or not at all). All the best.

Kitt



Thats too Bad.
I didnt feel like we were so far Apart that an Agreement could not be Reached.

But oh well.

I doubt any Suggestions from me will be Upvoted that much.
PvE Players, Soloers and Small Groups are not very Vocal in the Forums. Which should not be very Surprising as thats what defines them ingame as well.
Thats why in the Forum its been 1 Person saying Skjult should be Green and like 6 People saying it should go Red.
And I somehow doubt that I can get the Devs to put up my Suggestion for an Ingame Vote where it would stand a chance to be Upvoted.


So right now it makes more Sense to Voice my Critics on your Suggestion and make sure that should the Devs see your Suggestion they also see some Ramifications and some Ideas on how to prevent them.


Sycopata666
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Posts: 87
Joined: 22 Oct 2016, 15:06

Re: Feedback/Suggestion: Land Control, Military Outpost and Coin Faucets and Sinks,

Post by Sycopata666 » 26 Sep 2018, 17:49

i vote for each server node being a land, and to control it you have to control a NPC tower in the mid of the server like "outposts". This control tower have not to get a claim and if defenders want to build walls have to force its to active maintain its regular to get a proper defenses to prevent afk people hold a self defended tower and to give advises to invasor about what lands are abandoned and easy to claim, and what ones have active people defending it.

Really nice overall work.


Khaos8184
 
Posts: 8
Joined: 28 Oct 2016, 03:43

Re: Feedback/Suggestion 2: Land Control, Military Outpost and Coin Faucets and Sinks,

Post by Khaos8184 » 07 Nov 2018, 23:06

I would remove the whole eviction notice thing, as a solo player I could see it being abused a lot, as well as the whole Taxes Non sense


SonofKitt
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Posts: 130
Joined: 03 Dec 2015, 06:17

Re: Feedback/Suggestion 2: Land Control, Military Outpost and Coin Faucets and Sinks,

Post by SonofKitt » 08 Nov 2018, 13:19

Hi Khaos,

The eviction notice "mechanic" is not designed to be used on solo players, and to be used as a tool against griefers. Yes I understand you might say, well people will just use it as a tool to grief solo players! Yes, but I don't think so.

The main reason being, that the people in control of an fort will want as many people on their land as possible, to generate as much land income as they can get away with without be booted out. They will want solo players on there land. But griefers will grief, so there needs to be a mechanic that protects the interests of guilds and solo players while dealing with griefers.

At the moment, solo players offer nothing to guilds other than more lag on there server. And guilds can just drop a t1 next to a private claim to remove and can do so easier within a couple of days (depends on the layout of private claims)

So by creating a eviction notice system, which took 1- 2 or 4 weeks or more would actually be adding to the protections of the solo player. By allowing solo players to deconstruct their buildings so that they can rebuild them elsewhere is adding to the protections of solo players. Atm a player cannot salvage there buildings. Allowing evicted players to do so would be good.

People who drop griefing claims to block resources like clay, mines or roads should be prevented from dropping another claim nearby through the eviction process.

There's many way to skin a cat but I don't think this system would hurt solo playstyle, instead I think it will encourage it.


And relation to tax. Atm you as a player have to find 100% of the coin for your private claim. By intoducing land income, you would be getting maybe 50-100% of the maintenance, something you are not getting now. So solo players would be better off.


And I envision that the money taxed will likely be used to buy items/armors/animals/resources/crops etc off smaller groups and solo players to fund there war efforts (something they will need to stay in control of the fort or (forts))

I.e. the money will trickle back. (Hopefully more trickle than in the real world!)

Do you think this is possible khoas? Or do you think I'm overlooking things or underestimating players?


Khaos8184
 
Posts: 8
Joined: 28 Oct 2016, 03:43

Re: Feedback/Suggestion 2: Land Control, Military Outpost and Coin Faucets and Sinks,

Post by Khaos8184 » 10 Nov 2018, 18:24

Just because its not suppost to be used on solo players doesnt mean it wont be,the personal claims are right now the easiest to remove and the eviction system is still a easy way to remove and i dont think any guild that is forcing you to move will let you move with out stealing your stuff. most guilds would want alts from the guilds to make personal claims for the money,

As for the big guilds using there gold coins to buy stuff from solo players, It wouldnt happen because a big guild will 100+ players can make everything themselves and they only want Regionals, I think removing regional materials would help with trading as well as making claims have to choose a speaicality, so a claim cant do everything.

make the GM city usable for solo players, so those that dont want be forced to work with a guild or lose all there work because there evicted and this gives new players a place to learn the game and get stuff so they can make there own claims.

I dont think that making a system where guilds get money just for having a Fort is good for the game, it needs to make the economany work like have only the Gm Trade posts can sell to crown and removing regional matts.

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Hodo
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Re: Feedback/Suggestion 2: Land Control, Military Outpost and Coin Faucets and Sinks,

Post by Hodo » 10 Nov 2018, 20:12

I love how master of irrelevance Sunleader, continues to prove how much of a non-factor he really is.

Fact is if I were still interested in this game I could probably get ahold of 30-40 characters without paying a dime. Just by asking former guildmates for there characters.

Which they would gladly give me. And I know of some individuals who still play the game who have done JUST this. And have at this point nearly 100 characters.

This doesn't include the Chinese gold farming machine, that was cranking out a character a day at its peak.

The issues with this game is Bobik listened to people like you Sunleader, and that flat out ruined the game. Instead of sticking to the original promise of the game. Sorry but there are better options out there for less money and more stable.

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