Important Poll

General discussion about Life is Feudal MMO and Life is Feudal: Your Own, The main section and backbone of the forums.

Would you be willing to pay for EVERY character you want to transfer to the main continent?

Yes, I am willing to pay for every character and the price looks reasonable.
1022
42%
Yes, I am willing to pay for every character, but the price seems too high.
494
20%
Yes, I am willing to pay for every character and feel free to raise the prices. LiF is going to be a cool game and worth it! :)
206
8%
No, I don’t want to pay for every character in order to play.
738
30%
 
Total votes : 2460

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Kdchan
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Re: Important Poll

Post by Kdchan » 28 Jan 2014, 19:45

Find me a true sandbox game, ffa pvp full loot where you just pay 20 € and play for free forever.
Some people really don't have a clue, 20 € is a very low and affordable price, and thanks to this you can avoid in a certain degree multi-accounts and hackers.
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LiF: YO

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Palewulf
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Re: Important Poll

Post by Palewulf » 28 Jan 2014, 19:50

I will play only one character, so my vote in this poll would skew the results.


Did not vote.


Balariand
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Re: Important Poll

Post by Balariand » 28 Jan 2014, 19:51

I chose the last option solely for the reason that I think the whole alt system should be reconsiderd. We had some discussions about this on PW (A MB RP mod). You can be the worst asshole and have everyone hate you, but when you are tired of being like that you just change your name and start all over again... Reputation should matter, changing your name shouldn't be possible (save for clan-tags of course). I consider the price for the ticket reasonable though, if this game turns out as planned, selling the tickets for less than 20€ would be a shame IMO.

Sincerely, Balariand

EDIT: I think submitting my vote was pretty stupid in the first place :pardon: You may want to subtract 1 vote off the last choice ^^

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Kdchan
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Re: Important Poll

Post by Kdchan » 28 Jan 2014, 19:53

Indeed if it was for me you can have only 1 character per account, best way to handle everything, from pkers to the whole game economy.

1 account x 1 character x combat skill cap x crafting skill cap BEST WAY, imo.
Played:
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Ultima Online
EvE
LiF: YO


P0stpwned
 
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Re: Important Poll

Post by P0stpwned » 28 Jan 2014, 19:54

There are serious problems with alts in games like this. People use them as mules/vaults to protect their goods. People will have an alt just to go around killing people randomly (thus making the alignment system worthless). Other problems.

For this reason I'd love to have a payment for every alt. If people are going to use alts for things like that the game might as well benefit financially.

Having said that, the price is a little steep. Maybe I'd be more comfortable if the Canadian Dollar wasn't doing so badly right now vis-a-vis the Euro.


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Re: Important Poll

Post by Shirokurokage » 28 Jan 2014, 19:58

yes, if its not too too much.


Drenai
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Re: Important Poll

Post by Drenai » 28 Jan 2014, 19:59

I believe the price is reasonable, however I always hoped we could eventually master everything on one character, considering what you are potentially planning, I guess we won't be able to do that, since LiF will have less money.

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Kdchan
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Re: Important Poll

Post by Kdchan » 28 Jan 2014, 20:24

Drenai wrote: however I always hoped we could eventually master everything on one character


Christ, no another Darkfall please where everyone is master warrior/bower/mage/crafter fucking up the whole game turning it to a big quake arena.

The best way to handle the economy is to limit how much you can learn both from combat and crafting skills, or pure merchants and crafters will never be an option, neither the trading and the economy will.

Hopefully Bobik know what to do and leaned very well from games like Darkfall where the economy is pratically zero.
MO is another example of a good game economy because of a good skill cap system.
Played:
Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Ultima Online
EvE
LiF: YO


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Re: Important Poll

Post by Sting5 » 28 Jan 2014, 20:34

Yes, I've voted for agreeing with the system and even raising the prices. And you know why? Because multi-chars thing is something I consider not necessary for a word like this: You create a char, You train it the way You feel it to be best. You don't like the set of skills, You rearrange them IMHO. That's it.

If You wish to have few chars - pay more. Seems reasonable to me considering the concept.
QUAERO TOTUS

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Kuroi
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Re: Important Poll

Post by Kuroi » 28 Jan 2014, 20:41

Sting5 wrote:Yes, I've voted for agreeing with the system and even raising the prices. And you know why? Because multi-chars thing is something I consider not necessary for a word like this: You create a char, You train it the way You feel it to be best. You don't like the set of skills, You rearrange them IMHO. That's it.

If You wish to have few chars - pay more. Seems reasonable to me considering the concept.


QFT

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Bobik
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Re: Important Poll

Post by Bobik » 28 Jan 2014, 20:46

Firstly, thank you for all your feedback :good:

Secondly, I would like to add a few comments on some of the posts above:

1. There is no 100% guarantee way of extermination of multi accounts. A lot of browser MMOs suffer because of them and even have a dedicated staff that is hunting for multi accounts and still are not 100% successful in that endeavor. So when we are talking about "single karma across all account" you must keep in mind that artificial limitation on one account will be avoided by creation a new one. And we can not effectively prohibit multiple accounts on one person.

2. Do not forget about Skill Cap and Stat Cap systems (browse our wiki for that, please). You can NOT and will NOT be able to learn ALL skills on a single character. It is not possible by design.

3. You are will not be forced in any way to pay for that additional character. Actually, I think that for most of players there will be only one character they will attend to and they won't bother about alts. We might implement face/body customization of already created characters as some kind of in game shop service for a small price, so there will be literally nothing you will need from a new toon. You will be able to achieve it with your current (unless we are talking about -50 alignment mark).

4. Having "one man army" of alts possessing some part of terrain should not work in LiF I hope. Because 1 player with 5 characters should be really weaker then 5 players with 1 character each, when it will go to battle/siege contest for territory. IT will still be viable for some kind of "hermit in the middle of nowhere" who is playing his own "family" of alts to support himself with all he needs. BUT even that might fail, because for all his needs he might need all the resources in vicinity, that might not be possible. And even if it will be possible, then that spot will be overtaken by some small guild, that will like such tight resources pack.

P.S. And that is what I'm trying desperately to do - avoid P2W model on a background of a failed indiegogo.com campaign and investors demanding return of investments.


SaresITA89
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Re: Important Poll

Post by SaresITA89 » 28 Jan 2014, 20:53

Kdchan wrote:For developers: put in game the SURNAME please, so if someone is called Jon XYZ, the alt will be called Bam XYZ. This avoid pkers to back blue and spies to join enemy clans, all should be account based even if you make more characters.



This is Way!

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Thokan
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Re: Important Poll

Post by Thokan » 28 Jan 2014, 21:31

Bobik wrote:2. Do not forget about Skill Cap and Stat Cap systems (browse our wiki for that, please). You can NOT and will NOT be able to learn ALL skills on a single character. It is not possible by design.


This^

This is the reason why people will want to make alt characters.

There is a reason for why people would want to make an alt character. Why hinder people from doing that with a steep price?
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Demonic
 
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Re: Important Poll

Post by Demonic » 28 Jan 2014, 21:50

On the other way, this adds meta-gaming and that's something I furiously hate. I know it's tied to RolePlaying, but still...

Raxx wrote:Spying and enemy infiltration should not be limited in any form. It adds a whole new depth and immersion to the conquest and political metagame aswell as wars and sieges.


Look, everything should cost some price. Leveling up skills costs time and resources, building village/town/etc. costs time and resources, why should spying be an exception?

Just the fact you can't be killed permanently and you can share everything you know directly with your guildmates even if your characters have no way of contacting each other makes infiltration way to easier than it should be. And if you can use an alt for it (which I fear will be common practice) you risk almost nothing.

But with only one character... well, you have to leave your current guild, make your way to the other guild, convince them you have no ill will, then try to gather intel, all with the risk of your main character.

Still a little bit too easy for me, but at least you have to risk something in order to gan info you need/want.
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Krevente
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Re: Important Poll

Post by Krevente » 28 Jan 2014, 22:05

Raxx wrote:Spying and enemy infiltration should not be limited in any form. It adds a whole new depth and immersion to the conquest and political metagame aswell as wars and sieges.


Those guilds who engage in it constantly in metagame will do it anyways regardless of game mechanics. Having said that though, I agree that you shouldn't be corralled into having the same surname across all characters. People will just buy a second account to get around that feature and there's no monthly sub fee, so the potential increase in income isn't all that worth it.


Demonic wrote:On the other way, this adds meta-gaming and that's something I furiously hate. I know it's tied to RolePlaying, but still...


Sadly, Metagaming will happen whether you attempt to prevent it or not because some people can't compete within the game mechanics as provided.

Our guild specifically holds ourselves back from Metagaming since many of us engage in those sorts of elements as part of our RL jobs so I wouldn't want to unleash that on the community ;)


Heflar
 
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Re: Important Poll

Post by Heflar » 28 Jan 2014, 22:24

warning: wall of text

As a vet player of Mortal Online, i do not agree with the reputation system of -50 = permanent killer, unless it is very difficult to get there.

When i played mortal online the worst people of the server were the "innocent" ones, they would always zerg protect the people sieging our property, there is a murdercount system similar to your reputation system.
once you hit 5 murdercounts you become a murderer, the problem was, i was a mounted archer and in a single fight where we were defending our own property, i shot 32 different people with arrows, i got 32 murdercounts and it takes 8h ingame to burn a single murdercount.

if another person was killed while "burning" murdercounts your timer would reset to 8h, and you would receive another murdercount

i tried my hardest to not be a murderer in that game, but eventually i was forced to be one protecting my own property.

if i am forced into the same thing in LIF then i will be quiting, i cannot afford to make a new char every time someone attacks my property, you need to have a clear system in place to make sure we can defend ourselves without taking on murdercounts, perhaps have a territory, where if somebody enters your territory you can kill them without consequence, if you can do this, i will be happy to pay whatever cost you put on the chars.

i have quit MO because of how much safety the "innocent" people have, i would like a system where your reputation drops if you kill a murderer or a innocent, perhaps a lower reputation drop on killing a murderer, the people of MO would attack a murderer on sight, knowing they can run to safety or call in more people knowing you cannot run to safety.

TL;DR : the reputation system could be griefed, forcing people to buy new people, or quit the game

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Kuroi
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Re: Important Poll

Post by Kuroi » 28 Jan 2014, 22:30

Heflar wrote:TL;DR : the reputation system could be griefed, forcing people to buy new people, or quit the game


MO system is flawed cause you can give a murdercount to anyone that JUST HIT you, on LIF you get a heavy alignment loss just when giving the fatal blow i guess

and if anyone is destroying someone else's house they'll be flagged as Trespasser and probably can be hit/killed with no penalty

Bobik will surely make it clearer


Serith78
 
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Re: Important Poll

Post by Serith78 » 28 Jan 2014, 22:39

I don't like the idea of paying for each character bought into the main world in combination with not being able to raise your alignment at -50. Flagging system griefing is rampant in sandbox PVP games to begin with.

Increasing skill loss the lower alignment goes alone is huge encouragement for flagging system griefing. If players can't raise their alignment back to positive after -50 AND bringing a new character into the main world costs more money.....it's flat out open season for griefers. Even in the case of territorial conflict, using naked "innocent" alts to lower the alignment of your foes becomes a very viable tactic.


Wolfstone
 
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Re: Important Poll

Post by Wolfstone » 28 Jan 2014, 22:48

yes its no much expensive 10e for each caracterforever

nice :evil:


hasaosan
 
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Re: Important Poll

Post by hasaosan » 28 Jan 2014, 23:11

been a hell of a long time since i posted here... but this sounds epic :D :evil:


Demonic
 
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Re: Important Poll

Post by Demonic » 28 Jan 2014, 23:39

Heflar wrote:TL;DR : the reputation system could be griefed, forcing people to buy new people, or quit the game


Alignement

I can't direct you to the exact posts where Bobik shared this info, but:

1, You can kill anyone who is marked as trespaser, criminal, evil and/or your guilds are in state of war without penalty.

2, You can only cross the -50 line by commiting a murder. Robbing, trespassing, or knocking out doesn't count. (It can lower you alignement to -50, but it can't push you below it. You have to murder someone for that.)

So... If you meet someone, who will clearly have ill intentions, you'll strike him first and then knock him out when he yields, you gain only -2 points, which can be back in 2 days.

If you won't strike first, you'll block his first attack (which will still damage you but only little bit) and then you'll kill him, you gain 0 points of alignement.

All in all, becoming a permament criminal won't be easy (at least if all the info provided by Bobik is acurrate) and you have to actively murder people to sink below -50. Even if you have -50 already, even if he provokes you and you'll strike the first blow, as long as you won't kill him (just knock him down) you won't be labeled as evil for life.

/Edit/
And since you won't get penalties for actions against factions who are in war with your guild, you can't loose alignement for fighting in war (which is something you could in MO if I understand you correctly)
Last edited by Demonic on 28 Jan 2014, 23:46, edited 2 times in total.
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Heflar
 
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Re: Important Poll

Post by Heflar » 28 Jan 2014, 23:43

Kuroi wrote:
MO system is flawed cause you can give a murdercount to anyone that JUST HIT you, on LIF you get a heavy alignment loss just when giving the fatal blow i guess


i agree that MO system is flawed heavily, but it is a hard thing to balance.
if 100 people hit a single person once, do they all recieve a murder count? or just the person who landed the last blow?
what is stopping guilds from making "executioners" people to land the last blow.
i think having all participants in a players death, result in a penalty system, perhaps the % of the players hp that you done, results in the % of reputation loss you would have got if you had murdered them alone, eg if you done 10% of the persons hp, and they give -10 reputation, you would gain 10% of -10 reputation = -1 reputation gained, i like this, but it could encourage zerg's.
or perhaps have a reputation loss which is split equally among the participants, eg, 5 people kill a person who results in -10 loss of reputation, each participant loses 2 reputation, this also can encourage zerging, a way to counter this could be to make it that the player will always lose half of the reputation for killing a player no matter what, eg
-10 reputation gain for killing a person lets call this Z, lets say 4 people kill this person N = number of killers
(Z/N)+(Z/2)= Y (-7.5)
if Y>Z then X = Z else X = Y , so X = -7.5 this way you can never gain more murdercount than you would have if you killed them alone, but you also are less encouraged to zerg players since the overall reputation gain is 4*-7.5 = - 30 ,3 times the amount if you had 1 vs 1 that player.

Kuroi wrote:
and if anyone is destroying someone else's house they'll be flagged as Trespasser and probably can be hit/killed with no penalty

Bobik will surely make it clearer


having a proper working territory control could work well,attacking the house could flag the player as "killable" where the owner of the property and ally's can kill the "killable" player without penalty, i think this should be the case if anybody enters your property who is not an ally.

If you are in the zone of which a house is being destroyed at any point of the houses destruction, then the player would suffer heavy reputation loss perhaps? unless you are an ally of the person who owns the property, unless the player switches ally stance during the destruction of his house, then the previous "ally" can receive reputation loss, this could counter exploitation of the ally system.

there are many ways to make these things work, i am just curious to what the developer picks, until then i cannot give a good opinion of the cost of moving a char to the "mainland".


Heflar
 
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Re: Important Poll

Post by Heflar » 29 Jan 2014, 00:05

Demonic wrote:
So... If you meet someone, who will clearly have ill intentions, you'll strike him first and then knock him out when he yields, you gain only -2 points, which can be back in 2 days.


2 days for making someone yield is very steep, i would become evil in no time just defending myself

Demonic wrote:
If you won't strike first, you'll block his first attack (which will still damage you but only little bit) and then you'll kill him, you gain 0 points of alignement.


i would hope you can loot him without penalty also

Demonic wrote:
All in all, becoming a permament criminal won't be easy (at least if all the info provided by Bobik is acurrate) and you have to actively murder people to sink below -50. Even if you have -50 already, even if he provokes you and you'll strike the first blow, as long as you won't kill him (just knock him down) you won't be labeled as evil for life.


it seems like becoming evil will be very easy if you can only gain 1 Alignment a day, especially for people who can play for extended times in a day, what if i seen 5 people who were heavily geared coming towards me, the firs guy attacks me and i am kiting them while attacking them, say i land a hit on each of the members, even the ones that did not land a blow on me first, i gain -6 alignment due to hitting 3 of them before they hit me, i die anyway and have alignment loss. and that is just one encounter.

Demonic wrote:

And since you won't get penalties for actions against factions who are in war with your guild, you can't loose alignement for fighting in war (which is something you could in MO if I understand you correctly)


you could only declare war on 2 guilds i think it was when i was playing, so we picked the people we fought with the most, and i think also the enemy had to accept the war declaration, which was terrible, because the only people who benifit from a war declaration was the murderers, since the "innocent" people would not gain any penalties from killing our people due the the fact we were all branded murderers due to defending, since there was no penalties for destroying property (for half of us, not all of us were saints), so they would never accept the war declarations.

there is many things wrong with this system, for eg, why limit the amount of war declarations, when the entire server hates us and is constantly comeing to try kill us, die in the process and we become more "evil" in doing so, the only reason they come to kill us is because we are labeled as killers, when they were the ones that made us this way.

i would hope there to be some type of system in place to gain alignment, because 1 alignment gain a day would not allow me to play the game or enjoy any of the features if any people in the game were to disagree with how i do things


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Re: Important Poll

Post by Arthua » 29 Jan 2014, 00:19

Evil Alignment Issue

If becoming irreversibly evil is too easy, then it would become cool and commonplace; deeming the whole system moot. There should be a point of no return for "good" players aswell.

Or atleast a harsh penalty for being irreversibly evil. That way, all players would try their hardest to not become to evil as to not hinder their success.



Money Issue
20$ for you first character (You essentially just bought the game.)

5$ for additional characters. Honestly, having to pay any money at all is enough of a deterrent. The griefer must TRULY, be dedicated to the troll-life to pay for another character.

But I know lots of people who like to restart on new characters, just for the lulz. A 5$ fee allows those who like a fresh start (new name, etc), and also allows you guys to make a nice income.

Hey, if you guys can push it to 10$ and still make money, go for it.

The quality of this product is key. If the game is good, people will pay.
Last edited by Arthua on 29 Jan 2014, 00:41, edited 1 time in total.


Alpha
 
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Re: Important Poll

Post by Alpha » 29 Jan 2014, 00:38

I can't wait for this game to be released and the price seems very reasonable.


P0stpwned
 
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Re: Important Poll

Post by P0stpwned » 29 Jan 2014, 01:25

Arthua wrote:Evil Alignment Issue

Money Issue
20$ for you first character (You essentially just bought the game.)

5$ for additional characters. Honestly, having to pay any money at all is enough of a deterrent. The griefer must TRULY, be dedicated to the troll-life to pay for another character.

But I know lots of people who like to restart on new characters, just for the lulz. A 5$ fee allows those who like a fresh start (new name, etc), and also allows you guys to make a nice income.

Hey, if you guys can push it to 10$ and still make money, go for it.

The quality of this product is key. If the game is good, people will pay.

Remember, these are euros, not dollars, so the amount in dollars will be more (especially, as I mentioned, garbage Canadian dollars which are in freefall at the moment).


Elysana
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Re: Important Poll

Post by Elysana » 29 Jan 2014, 01:26

I think the price is very reasonable.

I don't mind if I have to pay more to get another character into the mainland if it means that griefing will be lessened.
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Krevente
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Re: Important Poll

Post by Krevente » 29 Jan 2014, 01:59

In regards to the faction situation we all need to keep in mind that this won't be your traditional guild vs. guild arrangement. Guilds as orders will come together to form realms and realms will form Kingdoms. If your Kingdom declares war on another kingdom then there will be a significant amount of legal targets versus the system MO had.


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Re: Important Poll

Post by Cian » 29 Jan 2014, 03:44

I voted for Option B. Let me go through my reasoning.

First off, I concur that paying per character will reduce the amount of griefing in a game. However, I feel that the amount should be 8-10 euro per character rather than 20 euro. I understand that 20 euro might eliminate alt griefing entirely, I'd like to point out that it would likely receive a strong backlash from the gaming media that would inevitably hurt the total number of players willing to try the game.

Secondly, I think that one of the most effective mechanisms to reduce anonymous griefing would be instituting a dual system of mandatory Surnames or Last Names for those of us that are not english majors. Please consider requiring mandatory matching last names for all characters on the same account that way a reputation follows the account no matter how many characters they create. Evading that reputation would require an entirely new account and another 20 euros.

Thirdly, I think that land ownership allotments should be tied to the account and not the character. That way it would ensure that making alts would not allow sombody to own more land than one person should have. In order for that to be effective, all characters on the account must have the same permissions and abilities on the shared account lands.

Finally, this is not an easy subject. I urge you to consider that many of us voting for the option A or B are the hard core fan base. You must consider the effect any decision you make in terms of the average gamer who is just learning about LIF. Too harsh of a financial demand may chase away the critical mass of players required to make the servers seem not empty.

I don't typically like the idea of catering to the "average gamer" since the needle has been swinging in the wrong direction for 10 years, but they provide the income and they will likely be the future of LIF or any other new MMO. Yes they are fickle and they will dump a game over stupid easily solved issues. I am aware of that fact.
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