LiF currently encourages AFK macro skill increase (aka DF)

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Archaegeo
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LiF currently encourages AFK macro skill increase (aka DF)

Post by Archaegeo » 09 Mar 2014, 14:04

If you played early Darkfall you will remember as a minimum people swimming into walls to get swim skill up, and of course macro'ing repetitive actions to raise other skills and leaving it going over night.

The issues this raised besides skilling up without doing anything, was people never logged off and it made some bad queues too.

Friday Bobik acknowledged that if people want to macro it will happen.

The problems is the game system currently really encourages it.

Right now if I inspect a tree over and over, I keep getting forestry gains and stat increases. I know from experience there will be people that set a macro, go to work, and come home to large skill/stat gains.

Some will say it doesn't matter because in 2-3 weeks of hardcore play you can be at skillcap and at 90 skills.

However, at launch, someone who can get to those caps in 3 days vice 3 weeks will have a huge early advantage in: setting up crafting, building things, finding the best ores, etc, anything where a higher skill matters. Not to mention being a combat monster.

If this is intended ok, I'll start writing and publishing AHK scripts for testers, but it doesn't feel right.

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Bobik
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Re: LiF currently encourages AFK macro skill increase (aka D

Post by Bobik » 09 Mar 2014, 14:24

I believe that there is some misunderstanding here.
1. We do not plan to ban/kick for macroing, BUT

2. We do everything to avoid that macroing and make it senseless.
We were talking with you about ONE of abilities out of almost 170 of others. And that ability from Forestry, you can not even chop trees with Forestry skill.
Let me explain my vision since I know mechanics of a bit more abilities, then you do ;)

- Some abilities are minor and does not create anything - these are inspecting abilities and "Inspect a tree" for instance. You can macro them of course and that will be hard to prevent really, but that will not create much of advantage.

- Some crafting abilities are actually have "macro" functionality in them - autocraft option that will consume all your ingredients to mass produce a certain amount of items. It can be coped with minigames in some crafts, so you can either play minigames as mad and be a bit faster or better, or just stuff your inventory with all ingredients and just lay back while your character will be creating 5000 nails or knives.

- Some abilities are very hard or almost impossible to macro and there is no autocraft either. For instance objects construction, tunneling, terraforming, farming, stable management, smelting and so on.

So you are either do not get much from macroing, or it is already officially implemented or it is simply impossible.

As I've stated before, our game is not about faster skills progression and grinding - it is about a proper USE of those skills aka individual player skill.
BUT if you WANT to grind and WANT to macro to get some minor or mythical advantage over other players - you're free to do that :crazy: You will even get some title and/or vanity effect to show off to others, how hardcore player you are once you hit 100 lvl of some skill.
But for the rest of players our game is designed to get a normal skill progression during normal gameplay without messing with macroing/bot running.


Archaegeo
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Re: LiF currently encourages AFK macro skill increase (aka D

Post by Archaegeo » 09 Mar 2014, 14:30

Thanks for chiming in Bobik

And I hope you realize I am definitely not attacking the game, I wouldn't have donated if I didn't believe in what you are trying to accomplish.

While you tell us those skills are minor, which they might be, they do give stat gain as well, and for min/max hardcore pvp'ers, that will be reason enough to set up a macro when they go to school/work.

I.e. they will love going about gaining skills doing normal things, that's awesome, and then they will say, "rather than logging off, ill just skill up forestry while im gone to work and get some stat improvements."

Ive always loved a system where you gain through use, aka UO and early Pen and Paper RPG's, but the problem with UO and later computer versions is if someone can gain when they couldn't otherwise be playing, they will do so, its the nature of many of the players.

Just 0.02 cents of thought, your's is the other 0.98 <grin>


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Re: LiF currently encourages AFK macro skill increase (aka D

Post by Raxx » 09 Mar 2014, 14:32

People that spend more time and effort into the game diserve better reward, it's an MMO after all
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Archaegeo
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Re: LiF currently encourages AFK macro skill increase (aka D

Post by Archaegeo » 09 Mar 2014, 14:34

Raxx,

True, but many will say that they aren't spending time in game for being better, they have a script doing it while they are away.

If you want to be even otherwise, you do like Eve, where you get X points per hour to put where you wish, even while offline.

I do not think, at last from what has been written and said, that it is LiF's intent to promote offline skillgain, which is the same as being online with a macro running while you are out of the house.


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Re: LiF currently encourages AFK macro skill increase (aka D

Post by Raxx » 09 Mar 2014, 14:39

people will not care if AFK macroing / skilling will have an advantage as long as the advantage is so small that it can easily be diminished by normal play, or even insignificant.

you can't compare DF1's skill grind because in that game it was neccesary to have certain skills to even consider having a chance at PvP, and that game was mainly about PvP, meaning that you were not viable at all in the game. That's not the case in LiF and it won't even a shadow of a problem like it was in DF.
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Archaegeo
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Re: LiF currently encourages AFK macro skill increase (aka D

Post by Archaegeo » 09 Mar 2014, 14:43

If as Bobik says above "1. We do not plan to ban/kick for macroing,..."

then you will 100% have guilds that set up macro's to fight each other while afk. If it doesn't work within guilds then two guilds will partner up to do it. Saw it in Darkfall, it will happen here too.

The point being, if macro'ing is allowed, and there are gains to be made from doing an action, it will be macro'd to do the action while afk at work or school.

I WISH people would only gain skillups from going out and actively participating in the world, that's the ideal, and with pen and paper rpg's you can control that because the GM hands out all gains.

Here though, if you give people a way to get ahead while not able to play, they will take it.

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Bobik
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Re: LiF currently encourages AFK macro skill increase (aka D

Post by Bobik » 09 Mar 2014, 14:49

For combat skills progression we plan instanced battle arenas. Just random matchmaking, when you and bunch of random players from all the server will be mixed up and divided evenly into two teams of random players to have a battle for fun and for wager.

If someone will prefer macro hitting each other AFK in their city instead of having fun in a battle arena, well, that is going to be their choice. As I've stated before, we will not kick/ban for that.


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Re: LiF currently encourages AFK macro skill increase (aka D

Post by Archaegeo » 09 Mar 2014, 14:56

Understood Bobik.

And the same guys who will LOVE your instanced battle arenas will also AFK macro combat gains so when they go there they have every advantage they can.

And they don't prefer macro afk fighting to gain skills, they do it in addition to the things they do when the can actively play.

Its a decision you have made and thus how it is, but people need to be aware it will be happening and more importantly for you, that it is not a reportable/bannable offense. Otherwise you will get flooded with petitions/mails about people afk skill gaining.

Also, this will make it so players do not log off, rather staying online when done playing to macro up skills.


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Re: LiF currently encourages AFK macro skill increase (aka D

Post by Archaegeo » 09 Mar 2014, 14:59

One nice aspect of this?

Find the afk'ers and knock them out and take their stuffs


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Re: LiF currently encourages AFK macro skill increase (aka D

Post by Antiblitz » 09 Mar 2014, 15:11

you do realize that you will just starve to death if you dont eat, though that could be macro'ed as well i guess. Better yet, you are never protected from death like in Eve online. The macroing was a thing in eve because people could sit in a belt protected with no worry of death, or rather an incredibly low chance of death.

If you see some dude standing in the forest repeatedly messing with trees or whatever, you could simply kill that person and reset the stats they have been working so hard to achieve for a days time, or more, you could technically kill someone so much that their skills dive back to the level of a beginning player.


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Re: LiF currently encourages AFK macro skill increase (aka D

Post by Archaegeo » 09 Mar 2014, 15:25

But you get murderer flag if you do that.

You take an alignment hit just for attacking him if not a guild you are at war with.

Plus people wont do it in the open when possible, they will go to out of the way places where the chance of their macro being interrupted will be minimal.


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Re: LiF currently encourages AFK macro skill increase (aka D

Post by Agathon » 09 Mar 2014, 15:35

Animals will simply kill the people macroing in the middle of no where, as while you're sitting there inspecting a tree. An animal can come up and just kill you, and you'll be busy inspecting away and won't even know because you won't be at the screen.
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Re: LiF currently encourages AFK macro skill increase (aka D

Post by Archaegeo » 09 Mar 2014, 15:41

You are thinking way too small, I can easily build a fence or something around my area to protect me

If macro'ing is allowed, which right now it will be, people will macro when done active playing, because why not get a few stat/skillpoints while at work?

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Re: LiF currently encourages AFK macro skill increase (aka D

Post by Kdchan » 09 Mar 2014, 15:55

Archaegeo wrote:You are thinking way too small, I can easily build a fence or something around my area to protect me

If macro'ing is allowed, which right now it will be, people will macro when done active playing, because why not get a few stat/skillpoints while at work?


You fear is comprensible, i played DF1 a lot too. Buyt there is a difference here, there is a skill cap and there are limitations on how much skills you can max, also Bobik stated that grind is not an issue, it mean that probably you can max your viable build in a week, maybe like MO.
So let macroers do it, we will catch up in no time anyway, very different compared to DF1 where you have to macro for months in a "bloodwall."
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Re: LiF currently encourages AFK macro skill increase (aka D

Post by Archaegeo » 09 Mar 2014, 16:55

Problem with that though is twofold

One, while skillcap is fast (2-3 weeks), if I can do it in 3 days at launch and you playing straight take 3 weeks, there will be definite advantages in combat/crafting foothold, etc.

Two, you still get stat gains as you push to 100 skill. I do not think stats hit cap in 2-3 weeks, think that takes longer.

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Re: LiF currently encourages AFK macro skill increase (aka D

Post by Bobik » 09 Mar 2014, 17:38

Stats should progress on a same speed as skills. You don't have to grind for stats more then you have to grind for skills.

Also, I very doubt that you will be able to provide EVERYTHING for a good macroing at start. I mean, you will need a safe place, away from players that will want to mess with you by dragging wild animals to you or simply knocking you down to ruin your macro sequence. And I am not talking about a stack of food that you will have to keep on yourself, that you must actually GET first.

I'm sure macroing will be possible, but I also quite sure it will be almost impossible at first days after server wipes.

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Re: LiF currently encourages AFK macro skill increase (aka D

Post by Saxxon » 09 Mar 2014, 20:44

Unless I have misunderstood there are cap limits so this discussion is basically irrelevant and the speed of skill gain also makes this a waste of time.


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Re: LiF currently encourages AFK macro skill increase (aka D

Post by Siegbert » 09 Mar 2014, 21:12

Saxxon wrote:Unless I have misunderstood there are cap limits so this discussion is basically irrelevant and the speed of skill gain also makes this a waste of time.


Yea, I don't get the discussion either. I don't care about dem cheaters. I'll get there soon enough by playing as it's supposed to be.

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Re: LiF currently encourages AFK macro skill increase (aka D

Post by Saxxon » 09 Mar 2014, 21:25

Siegbert wrote:
Saxxon wrote:Unless I have misunderstood there are cap limits so this discussion is basically irrelevant and the speed of skill gain also makes this a waste of time.


Yea, I don't get the discussion either. I don't care about dem cheaters. I'll get there soon enough by playing as it's supposed to be.


It won't save them...


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Re: LiF currently encourages AFK macro skill increase (aka D

Post by Drakes821 » 09 Mar 2014, 22:18

I don't see the problem.

First off comparing it to DF isn't even fair when in DF it took months of macroing or years of actually playing to be PvP viable. Allegedly in LiF it takes days of macroing or weeks of playing.

So worst case scenario people will have a 2-3 week advantage at launch? This is a MMO that will hopefully be around your 5+ years...in the broad spectrum of things that advantage won't have a big affect, even at launch.

I think one of the things MO did right was allow players to macro and get a viable character in a short time. It allows new players to jump in and be able to compete soon and enjoy the game.


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Re: LiF currently encourages AFK macro skill increase (aka D

Post by Archaegeo » 09 Mar 2014, 22:20

You say you don't care now, but wait till you were trying to be a crafter and make a living and you can't sell your wares because somebody who was Macroe all day is now selling better stuff for a cheaper price

Or the number of potential long-term players we will lose because they tryout instant battles on day three and fight someone who has skills equivalent of week two and think that the game is balance that way


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Re: LiF currently encourages AFK macro skill increase (aka D

Post by Drakes821 » 09 Mar 2014, 22:56

Archaegeo wrote:You say you don't care now, but wait till you were trying to be a crafter and make a living and you can't sell your wares because somebody who was Macroe all day is now selling better stuff for a cheaper price

Or the number of potential long-term players we will lose because they tryout instant battles on day three and fight someone who has skills equivalent of week two and think that the game is balance that way

You understand those imbalances will exist with or without macroing right?

Even without macroing players who don't play at launch will still experience the same issues of being behind the power curve.

This is an MMO and people who put more time into the game get more out of it.


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Re: LiF currently encourages AFK macro skill increase (aka D

Post by Protunia » 14 Mar 2014, 22:33

what was the main point here anyhow?

:pardon:


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Re: LiF currently encourages AFK macro skill increase (aka D

Post by Seppuku » 14 Mar 2014, 22:57

Archaegeo wrote:You say you don't care now, but wait till you were trying to be a crafter and make a living and you can't sell your wares because somebody who was Macroe all day is now selling better stuff for a cheaper price

Or the number of potential long-term players we will lose because they tryout instant battles on day three and fight someone who has skills equivalent of week two and think that the game is balance that way


I never try to sell anything until I am high enough level to make quality goods at a competitive price. Until you reach a competitive level you should craft to increase skills as efficiently as possible.
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Re: LiF currently encourages AFK macro skill increase (aka D

Post by Proximo » 15 Mar 2014, 01:28

I don't have an issue with macro's, if a guy want to raise his skill while he's offline then whatever. The guy who actually cuts down trees or farms to raise his skill get's physical rewards and skill gain.


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Re: LiF currently encourages AFK macro skill increase (aka D

Post by Enkieridos » 08 Jan 2015, 10:10

In the first twelve hours I played not using macros at all I maxed terraforming to 100. Using the default progression, I am playing with a group of people over 77 hours of play later roughtly two weeks real world time the terraforming is done for the wall. Construction blocks, construction, and masonry are going very slowly. I can see being able to macro construction with pave, but making more advanced structures like a wall. Or even a town with a group of friends, if your end game is to use all the skill points you can in each group of skills your game will end within a month. Full Automation will take someone extremely talented and patient to achieve through scripting. Won't say it can't be done, but it would probably take a long time to write one if it is possible at all.

Also the higher skills take longer to gain. Terraforming I was getting 2 points gain until 30 and it progressively takes longer. Even though building the towns wall has maxed my terraforming in hours I am still terraforming. Gathering everything that is needed to build a wall for example is time consuming. The advantage would not be to the bots but the big guilds or several guilds working together. The advantage would be to big guilds making power blocs in each server.

What do you guys think it will be all bunnies and we won't get messed with in a open sandbox game. No players will work together and build nations while me and my four friends are making a house. I expect guilds are forming in the YO servers now. I expect there are groups that have figured out the best way to work together and build things much faster. At launch those that just bought the game and didn't take part in the Alpha testing are going to be at a very huge disadvantage when they get in. Botting won't make that advantage huge. Maxing skills is relatively a fast process without using macros. The thing that will give players the most advantage over others is the time of play. Those of us playing now when the mmo comes out, we will know the long work ahead of us. We will know an entire group needs to work on one thing together to get done with these things faster.

Honestly in this game to be pvp viable the minimum you need is a sling, sling ammo, and someone that can craft leather armor for you. Or someone that can craft metal armor and melee weapons. All a player in a large group should have to do is get mats for said weapons and armors. I don't think that many people will afk macro combat. I think it is more likely large roaming nomadic hordes will be the huge advantage over smaller players. As large roaming nomadic hordes in an rp sense would be destroying towns and sieging other large groups. If you plan to solo or play in a small group. Expect to be made a serf, peasant, or slave by a bigger group if you want to keep your claims. Most people will do what someone with a large army or bloodthirsty horde tells them to do. The first few months there will probably be a lot of tears. After the first year the learning curve on this game will probably be steep. As skills and character progression is made to be very fluid. One week I could need to be a forester/mason, the next I could need to tend coups, and other things. I wouldn't be able to be all of them, that doesn't mean I have to be a forester/mason forever. I could always choose to lower my skills in those trees and start farming/herbalism if my group needed that more. With this game being as fluid as it is as far as character progression goes, maxing skills as an end game proves fruitless now.

Assuming this game is like any other MMO's and this whole botting debate I have stumbled into is pretty dumb. Sorry it is. Because LiF is probably one of the few mmo's where full scale automation is far less possible and profitable than in other mmo's. This is probably the only mmo that isn't completely about the grind. Skill and stat progression are a grind, but it isn't something that really is noticable. Building advanced structures gives more skill points than just building a handle over and over again. I really am wondering if the people talking about botting in this game and how negative it would be actually played the game. For one you can't bot building structures like a wall. It is a team effort that would take hours upon hours of a single player setting up. Things like logging can't be automated by what is allowed because logs do not always appear in the same spot as another. Sometimes a board doesn't always stay at the same spot either. I don't see these as bugs, but ways to make full automation near impossible. Then there is building a complete wall. Every piece must be at the same height. So there is a lot of terraforming in building a wall. That can be macroed easily as far as the action. But to fully automate the process you would need a great number of containers to do it. Plus you would have to be able to manipulate your mouse to be able to select the right recipe and go to the right crate. It would take a long time to set all that up. A person building advanced structures in a crafting class will skill up far faster than someone macroing pave, flatten ground, gather herbs, etc. It takes a lot to build things, if you are building mass weapons and armor for a group. That group working together gives more of an advantage than any single bot gathering bark, or wild plant matter or whatever ever will. Running with a large group killing and burining everything in your path will level your skills far faster than afk macroing combat (which I am really not sure you could afk macro combat.) Since really skills are just a small part of this game someone could have maxed skills and go against someone that actively pvp's. Even if the active pvper has lower skills, actually having experience in pvp gives the advantage over the bot. If you pvp enough it isn't just the skills but the employment of the skills. You can have max skills with a sword through macroing. That does not mean you will have an advantage over someone in an army or horde.

Think of it this way. A huge horde of players 100+ is two nodes away heading to the keep in your node. You are in a small village in the path. There are six of you in your small guild that pledged allegience to the large guild in your node. (I doubt most people with an actual army in this game is going to let you live in the node near them without expecting some kind of tribute. Sorry that was how life was during the Feudal ages. Barbarian Hordes, Hostile Armies, Lords, Fiefdoms, Dukes. In the Feudal ages it was either did what the leader of the army said or die. So I don't think a large guild doing the same is a big stretch for this game. If you aren't expecting things like that, you might as well just stick with YO.

The MMO is going to be difficult. Players will kill you. Mobs will kill you. After you die your max life, stamina, and inventory capacity reduce. I was at like 150 inventory slots until two days ago boars that keep spawning in the town my group built. I was knocked unconcious a lot. I died twice. My inventory is down to 120. This also maybe because I don't really rest to much in the game too. I honestly doubt botting will make an advantage for the botter. If anything the player that looks for botters and kills them will probably give the attacking player more of an advantage over people than the person that actually botted. Macroing isn't even true botting, and not only the skill cap makes automation nearly impossible. The ingredents found in other skill chains also make automation nearly impossible. It takes hours to make linen rope if you already have the base ingredients. It takes days if you have to do it from seed. Really? A group of 10 with the ability to use a macro script to terraform for a wall and place a basic square wall with no gate doesn't break the game. They still have to gather resources and build the wall after that.

Don't worry about afk botters gathering herbs. They are probably not skilling up but waiting for that .0001 chance of a rare ingredient.

This game gives more advantages to groups than individuals. So an individual that does nothing than bot won't do much. A player that has never actually been in combat having to move around a person back up and attack. Get away quick switch to ranged attack while the person is coming at you. AFK botting your skills in this game doesn't mean you will be better at pvp than everyone else. The combat system is more experience with the system in action than merely with skills. Yes people in other MMO's do bot to suppliment what they do. But to be honest Skills aren't the end game in this game. They can be changed and were made to be changed constantly. A person with a sling and knows how to kite will probably kill someone with max skills that doesn't know how to counter a kiting player. That is something botting will never be able to show a player is how to pvp. Skills are only a small part of this game. I really honestly do not understand how so many people have not learned this yet.


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Re: LiF currently encourages AFK macro skill increase (aka DF)

Post by Arsenic » 12 Jul 2017, 02:30

As far as I can understand "initializing" phase is when the launcher downloads updated world info.

If you're stuck at initializing while loading a character in Abella, you can exit the game, switch characters and let the launcher download the world info before you hit play.

If you succeed in that you won't get stuck in the initializing stage after you hit play.

I also encountered a connection error 302 while trying to download the world data from the launcher. In that case I copied the wold info from a different computer.

The world info is located at

.../game/data/world-eu-main

and

.../game/data/world-eu-newbie

depending on where you're stuck replacing these files from an updated version fixes the problem.

This error is originating from launcher not being able to create a PnP connection with the download server.

Good luck.

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Re: LiF currently encourages AFK macro skill increase (aka DF)

Post by Hodo » 17 Jul 2017, 18:34

I always love this debate...
Macro or not to Macro.
For crafting it is an issue, but crafters are often alts of main characters anyway.

As for macroing your combat skills, doesnt make you better at actually fighting. Your characters skills can only get you so far.

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Re: LiF currently encourages AFK macro skill increase (aka DF)

Post by Zohann » 18 Jul 2017, 11:54

Hodo wrote:I always love this debate...
Macro or not to Macro.
For crafting it is an issue, but crafters are often alts of main characters anyway.

As for macroing your combat skills, doesnt make you better at actually fighting. Your characters skills can only get you so far.


Yep, since everyone uses macro to lvl combat skills, especially for the beta. Or you think there are still some people who are attacking a dummy to reach 90 two-hand skill with their bare finger on the left button? Maybe, there are people like this, but, uh...That is very enthusiastic,.. or excentric. And what about the MMO, where the skill progression will be twice as low as it is on the beta right now...
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