Meta weapons as they stand (Messer doesn't need so much attention)

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SandorsChickens
 
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Meta weapons as they stand (Messer doesn't need so much attention)

Post by SandorsChickens » 15 Jul 2017, 11:28

Before I begin, I want to say I've put many many hours into duel/pvp servers, playing around with different builds and weapons, so please hear me out. I've been using the gross messer as my main weapon of choice since I started playing, and I want to share my knowledge to hopefully give the devs and some players a better understanding on the balance of the meta weapons as they currently stand. Currently I believe there are 3 meta weapons for duels, gross messer, boar spear, and claymore. Claymore is pretty balanced so I won't go into it. Gross messer, sure some can say it's strong, but I don't believe it's overpowered to the point where it needs multiple nerfs. Sure, say what you want about it being a spammy weapon with a long reach for a 1 hander, but a lot of people that complain about it, don't have good enough footwork and parrying skills (which take skill and practice to be good at) to beat a good messer user. The messer's damage is also right where it should be against half-plate users. Most people who build half-plate will be using a 2 hander, and in my opinion and experience, messer vs half-plate 2 hander build is right where it should be as far as balancing goes. If the messer is nerfed more than it has been already, it will be completely useless against any half-plate user, especially if they use 2 handed weapons, as they do a lot of damage already, the only circumstance I believe the messer is "overpowered" in, is against un-armored opponents. Now I will talk about the boar spear, say what you want, but I've used this weapon many times in many duels and in team fights, and It's just downright overpowered. It is only 2 stones in weight meaning it only requires 20 strength to wield, as it stands right now it is currently NOT parryable by any weapon, it can do a maximum of around 45-50 in one hit (That's one third of my health in one hit) and hits consistent 30s-40s. In my opinion, those are the overpowered aspects of it. I've fought many great boar spear users with a gross messer, and I can say from experience, to beat a good boar spear user with a gross messer, you have to have amazing footwork and timing. One of the biggest complaints I hear from boar spear users about the gross messer is that it's too spammy, however, first of all to get close enough to a boar spear user to combo them, you have to first, dodge their attack (which is hard against a good user), dodge their hit and run attack (which is even harder), then if you make it close enough to them unharmed, they can easily just parry you allowing them to get an easy hit, now this is mostly applicable to duels, as in team fights you would rarely have to chase down a boar spear user alone to that extent. I hope this gives some insight on the meta weapons as they stand, and my thoughts from my many hours of experience of pvp.

TL;DR: Claymore - Balanced. Gross Messer - Way less OP than people make it seem, it's strong, but doesn't deserve multiple nerfs in a row. Boar Spear - Straight up overpowered. Does way too much damage, Takes a ton of movement skill to beat a good b spear user, un-parryable.


Toren
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Re: Meta weapons as they stand (Messer doesn't need so much attention)

Post by Toren » 15 Jul 2017, 20:27

I think you might be a little biased towards the gross messer. That thing can put out 3 times the DPS the boar spear can, it is just as OP. Unless you're fighting someone in full plate all the time, I'd say it might even be worse than the boar spear. As someone who likes using weapons like the estoc in half plate, fighting a gross messer is just as obnoxious as fighting a boar spear. There is no way you can say a weapon that can swing 5 times in under two seconds and do 20-30 slashing consistently to all armors except plate isn't stupidly broken, not to mention it has virtually no handle hit hitbox and the range of most two handed weapons. I mean, just compare it to other 1 handers, theres a reason why you probably don't use those instead. 1 handed swords need a more complex combo than left right left and gross messer needs to be 3 times slower than it is now, and spears need to be parryable and have their hitbox tweaked so they can't point blank stab. There shouldn't be any spammy weapons in a game like this, removes the point of timing and footwork. Don't forget that a gross messer requires the same amount of strength as a boar spear, so its super easy to keep up with a boar spear user since you can dump all your points in agi and con as well.

As far as the claymore goes, it isn't OP, but it is WAY stronger than the zweihaender and flamberge, and thats the real issue. Inter weapon class balance, it goes too all weapons. Theres a reason no one uses the nordic sword, scimitar, falchion, light sabre, spear, awl pike, etc. over the current meta weapons. I mean look at the 1.5 handed swords, they are stupidly underpowered unless you use a shield which makes them twice as long and do double the slashing damage.

I used to use hard meta weapons as well like the partisan and say the same exact thing about it not being stupidly OP, I know its hard to admit something is stupidly OP when you depend on it.

TL:DR, Gross Messer and Boar spear are stupidly OP at the moment, especially considering the weapon weights, but the real issue here is that the devs don't understand weapon balance at all and never will because they don't play the game.


Apoc21
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Re: Meta weapons as they stand (Messer doesn't need so much attention)

Post by Apoc21 » 16 Jul 2017, 00:43

I agree with Toren, Boar spear needs to be parryable, Gross messer needs to be slowed down a lot. Especially people who macro their attacks with gross messer can swing 6 times easily.

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Zohann
 
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Re: Meta weapons as they stand (Messer doesn't need so much attention)

Post by Zohann » 19 Jul 2017, 08:25

Gross messer is ok right now.

But is it strange only for me, that this boar spear, which is basically a hunting tool or a weapon of peasants and militia, is mostly stronger ar as strong as the weapons of prof soldiers in our beloved best balanced game ever? :)

Should it not be that the plate should be dealt with with weapons like morning star, warpick (though it was not meant to deal damage at all, but to drag the opposing horseman from the horse) , bolts or just heavy 2hweapons like swords, axes, mauls etc?

Currently a peasant animal hunting tool deals to guys in the plate armor 30-50dmg(!!!). You think the knights of medival times would have even thought about buying their plates if they knew that a simple peasant can beat him down with just his tool?

The total concept about this spear is totally wrong and broken.
And the main issure is not also with damage but that you cannot block it. I wonder WHY the skill tree making guys just added that? WHAT crap was the ground for this??? :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: Maybe they were under the impression of some chinese martial arts movies or what??? You think the knights who practiced daily in fencing did not know how to block a spear? And you think that in medival times (and this game style is about middle ages europe and steppe asia, if im not mistaken) there were prof soldiers who were fighting with a boar spear :ROFL: and that could match the knight???

Its obvious. The boar spear damage should be nerfed at least for 25%. I also suggest to substitue this inability to block spear by something else. Why not make it not unblockable, but blockable, but that this blocking damage would be twice as much as compared to other weapons? Though its not realistic at all, but at least you will give a chance to plate guys, who cannot do anything against the guy with a boar spear in melee, though it should be VICA VERSA totally.

And please, dont make it for the boar spear. Choose some military styled spear which should be in the hands of dedicated spearman.
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Hodo
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Re: Meta weapons as they stand (Messer doesn't need so much attention)

Post by Hodo » 19 Jul 2017, 18:44

Some of you have the wrong idea about some of these weapons, like the Boar Spear... it was WAY more than a tool. It was a weapon, many of the Normans, and Saxons used it in war because of the strength of the blade and its tongs to prevent a boar from running up the haft. While it was nearly useless against a man in full plate, it was however VERY useful against chainmail and light armored combatants like archers.

And the warpick wasnt just used to pull riders off of horses. It was HIGHLY effective at punching through plate. This is why most of the pole weapons of the later middle ages had a "bill" end. Just look at the poleaxe, halberd, and bec de corbin (spelling).

It is extremely difficult to pull a man out of an "English" saddle, which is what we have in this game. They have a high back and no horn, which makes them extremely steady seats that are hard to push off or pull off of. This is why they were designed that way... for the mounted charge, to keep the rider in the saddle when his lance makes impact.

The sword was equally ineffective against a man in full plate as a spear... but the mace, axe, and "warpick" was highly effective. It was about mass not about edge in defeating plate weapons.

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Zohann
 
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Re: Meta weapons as they stand (Messer doesn't need so much attention)

Post by Zohann » 20 Jul 2017, 08:01

Hodo wrote:Some of you have the wrong idea about some of these weapons, like the Boar Spear... it was WAY more than a tool. It was a weapon, many of the Normans, and Saxons used it in war because of the strength of the blade and its tongs to prevent a boar from running up the haft. While it was nearly useless against a man in full plate, it was however VERY useful against chainmail and light armored combatants like archers.

And the warpick wasnt just used to pull riders off of horses. It was HIGHLY effective at punching through plate. This is why most of the pole weapons of the later middle ages had a "bill" end. Just look at the poleaxe, halberd, and bec de corbin (spelling).

It is extremely difficult to pull a man out of an "English" saddle, which is what we have in this game. They have a high back and no horn, which makes them extremely steady seats that are hard to push off or pull off of. This is why they were designed that way... for the mounted charge, to keep the rider in the saddle when his lance makes impact.

The sword was equally ineffective against a man in full plate as a spear... but the mace, axe, and "warpick" was highly effective. It was about mass not about edge in defeating plate weapons.


OK. Lets not continue our nerdish internet wikipedia history discussions). Its totally my fault to start it and I am sorry about it). Let us focus on the balancing. We have 30-50 damage from boar spear to the half-plate. Even if you have a shield and use boar spear 1h, though a thrust with 2h should be twice as powerful as 1h! And still it is unclear why its not parryable or blockable. Whats the point in it? Make at least that this blockbreaking is not 100%, but at least 30%.

Even if we forget about realism at all, than all the weapons should be balanced in the point of their potential and cost. The boar spear due to its extremely low cost should not have potential equal to more expensive swords. Yet right now it is effective against any kind of armor, and any kind of enemy, be he slow or fast, since it does piercing damage, and all types of armor have relatively low piercing defense, only tier 3 scale can be somthing. Same kind in point of easiness to use Messer is not effective against plate only, and is more expensive.

We had already this issue with Partisans, and they were nerfed. Why does not it correspond to the boar spear?

Just to sum it up:

The boar spear is easy to craft and cheap.
It deals the same amount of damage as highest dps weapons.
It is long as 2h weapons.
It is fast and you can spam it, never letting your opponent to get to you.
It is unparryble.
In combination with the shield, if the opponent somehow managed to get to you, you can either passive or active block his attack, and than counter strike with your unparryble spear.

Having no shield and being on agi build, you can just parry the enemy strike and make a fast counter hit with massive damage and run behind his back, than again catch him on parry, counter strike,..,...,.. the enemy is dead.

The sequence begins until your opponent either runs away or dies, dealing you nearly no damage.

Totally balanced. As usual.
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Toren
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Re: Meta weapons as they stand (Messer doesn't need so much attention)

Post by Toren » 20 Jul 2017, 14:02

Zohann wrote:
Hodo wrote:Some of you have the wrong idea about some of these weapons, like the Boar Spear... it was WAY more than a tool. It was a weapon, many of the Normans, and Saxons used it in war because of the strength of the blade and its tongs to prevent a boar from running up the haft. While it was nearly useless against a man in full plate, it was however VERY useful against chainmail and light armored combatants like archers.

And the warpick wasnt just used to pull riders off of horses. It was HIGHLY effective at punching through plate. This is why most of the pole weapons of the later middle ages had a "bill" end. Just look at the poleaxe, halberd, and bec de corbin (spelling).

It is extremely difficult to pull a man out of an "English" saddle, which is what we have in this game. They have a high back and no horn, which makes them extremely steady seats that are hard to push off or pull off of. This is why they were designed that way... for the mounted charge, to keep the rider in the saddle when his lance makes impact.

The sword was equally ineffective against a man in full plate as a spear... but the mace, axe, and "warpick" was highly effective. It was about mass not about edge in defeating plate weapons.


OK. Lets not continue our nerdish internet wikipedia history discussions). Its totally my fault to start it and I am sorry about it). Let us focus on the balancing. We have 30-50 damage from boar spear to the half-plate. Even if you have a shield and use boar spear 1h, though a thrust with 2h should be twice as powerful as 1h! And still it is unclear why its not parryable or blockable. Whats the point in it? Make at least that this blockbreaking is not 100%, but at least 30%.

Even if we forget about realism at all, than all the weapons should be balanced in the point of their potential and cost. The boar spear due to its extremely low cost should not have potential equal to more expensive swords. Yet right now it is effective against any kind of armor, and any kind of enemy, be he slow or fast, since it does piercing damage, and all types of armor have relatively low piercing defense, only tier 3 scale can be somthing. Same kind in point of easiness to use Messer is not effective against plate only, and is more expensive.

We had already this issue with Partisans, and they were nerfed. Why does not it correspond to the boar spear?

Just to sum it up:

The boar spear is easy to craft and cheap.
It deals the same amount of damage as highest dps weapons.
It is long as 2h weapons.
It is fast and you can spam it, never letting your opponent to get to you.
It is unparryble.
In combination with the shield, if the opponent somehow managed to get to you, you can either passive or active block his attack, and than counter strike with your unparryble spear.

Having no shield and being on agi build, you can just parry the enemy strike and make a fast counter hit with massive damage and run behind his back, than again catch him on parry, counter strike,..,...,.. the enemy is dead.

The sequence begins until your opponent either runs away or dies, dealing you nearly no damage.

Totally balanced. As usual.


You can't really argue that the messer is balanced and complain about the spear. Messer is 3 times faster than the spears, as long as two handers, has a very small handle hitbox, and still wounds enough through armor to be very effective against half plate, and just as heavy as the boar spear. Its basically unparryable due to its speed, as well as putting out way more DPS.

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Zohann
 
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Re: Meta weapons as they stand (Messer doesn't need so much attention)

Post by Zohann » 21 Jul 2017, 06:43

Toren wrote:
Zohann wrote:
Hodo wrote:Some of you have the wrong idea about some of these weapons, like the Boar Spear... it was WAY more than a tool. It was a weapon, many of the Normans, and Saxons used it in war because of the strength of the blade and its tongs to prevent a boar from running up the haft. While it was nearly useless against a man in full plate, it was however VERY useful against chainmail and light armored combatants like archers.

And the warpick wasnt just used to pull riders off of horses. It was HIGHLY effective at punching through plate. This is why most of the pole weapons of the later middle ages had a "bill" end. Just look at the poleaxe, halberd, and bec de corbin (spelling).

It is extremely difficult to pull a man out of an "English" saddle, which is what we have in this game. They have a high back and no horn, which makes them extremely steady seats that are hard to push off or pull off of. This is why they were designed that way... for the mounted charge, to keep the rider in the saddle when his lance makes impact.

The sword was equally ineffective against a man in full plate as a spear... but the mace, axe, and "warpick" was highly effective. It was about mass not about edge in defeating plate weapons.


OK. Lets not continue our nerdish internet wikipedia history discussions). Its totally my fault to start it and I am sorry about it). Let us focus on the balancing. We have 30-50 damage from boar spear to the half-plate. Even if you have a shield and use boar spear 1h, though a thrust with 2h should be twice as powerful as 1h! And still it is unclear why its not parryable or blockable. Whats the point in it? Make at least that this blockbreaking is not 100%, but at least 30%.

Even if we forget about realism at all, than all the weapons should be balanced in the point of their potential and cost. The boar spear due to its extremely low cost should not have potential equal to more expensive swords. Yet right now it is effective against any kind of armor, and any kind of enemy, be he slow or fast, since it does piercing damage, and all types of armor have relatively low piercing defense, only tier 3 scale can be somthing. Same kind in point of easiness to use Messer is not effective against plate only, and is more expensive.

We had already this issue with Partisans, and they were nerfed. Why does not it correspond to the boar spear?

Just to sum it up:

The boar spear is easy to craft and cheap.
It deals the same amount of damage as highest dps weapons.
It is long as 2h weapons.
It is fast and you can spam it, never letting your opponent to get to you.
It is unparryble.
In combination with the shield, if the opponent somehow managed to get to you, you can either passive or active block his attack, and than counter strike with your unparryble spear.

Having no shield and being on agi build, you can just parry the enemy strike and make a fast counter hit with massive damage and run behind his back, than again catch him on parry, counter strike,..,...,.. the enemy is dead.

The sequence begins until your opponent either runs away or dies, dealing you nearly no damage.

Totally balanced. As usual.


You can't really argue that the messer is balanced and complain about the spear. Messer is 3 times faster than the spears, as long as two handers, has a very small handle hitbox, and still wounds enough through armor to be very effective against half plate, and just as heavy as the boar spear. Its basically unparryable due to its speed, as well as putting out way more DPS.


I can really argue, cause I know how to parry gross messer. And if I dont know how to do it, I wont probably stated that its is not so hard to parry it and would have joined the average guy statement *oh its inparryble. nerf it!*. As I said I am not a gross messer user, so for me there is nothing personal in defending gross. Half plate is not meant to be super armor. The difference between half plate and scale/mail is just 2 points of speed with 60 const and 30 agi, a bit less protection from pierce, yet much more protection from slashing. WHen the mail/scale is 30-35 damage, the plate is 25-30. And thats if you hit with a 90q gross.
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Toren
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Re: Meta weapons as they stand (Messer doesn't need so much attention)

Post by Toren » 21 Jul 2017, 14:04

Sure, you might parry the first attack. But if it doesn't parry stun the other guy hes gonna get at least 2 more attacks off before you can put up another parry. Not to mention if the other guy knows how to wait out your parry, thats three hits for 30ish damage in less than a second you're gonna take.

The gross messer is at least 2x stronger than all the other 1h swords and has 1.5 times the range while swinging just as fast. Thats the definition of imbalanced. 25-30 slashing against half plate is about how much damage a claymore does.

Arguing a weapon isn't OP because you CAN parry it is silly. I guess the 1 shot long pikes in the past weren't OP because they were parryable. Or lancing isn't OP cause you can parry it. Or all ranged is OP because you can't parry projectiles.

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