Life is Feudal Official Forum

[sunleader]

Please note that the Question is not Directly about the Issue I.ll link now. But about an abuse of the Mechanic to a different end.

I am sure your aware of the issue with Floating Items being usable as an Ladder to Scale the Walls of Cities and Castles.

Relevant Topics here. (no need to read the whole thing just serves to bring us on to the same Page)
why-i-stopped-playing-life-is-feudal-your-own-t23289/
unfair-and-should-be-addressed-t23347/



This Floating Item Mechanic was apparently stated by the Devs as being intended. Because it should replace the Siege Ladders until Siege Ladders come around.

And some Players in this Forum.
No Actively Claim that thus the Devs Intend for Floating Items to be used to Scale Walls and that this Mechanic thus should not be Contested in Suggestions and or Complains.



Now I have been Playing alot of different Games over the last 20 Years.
Including alot of Hardcore PvP Games and Sandbox Games like this one. (Albeit with much worse Graphics)
And not a few of them prided themselves in being an attempt to bring Ultima Online into an 3D MMORPG.

And I have also been part of the Server Wars in these Games.
Guilds going after each other. Going after each others Castles and Buildings.

And when I heard that this Game wants to Protect Players Claims during the Offhours by only allowing Attacks on them during certain Time Windows. To allow the Guilds to Defend their Stuff.
I was really Happy because many Games already Fail at this Stage.


However here is one thing where the Option to Scale Enemy Walls with Simple Items is very easy to Abuse.

Because with the current Systems in Place.
If I was a Guild Leader. I would Employ the very same Tactics that I have been part of so often in bigger Guild Wars and smaller Guild Wars.

I would have a few of my Active People Log in at 4 O Clock in the Morning.
Have them Scale the Walls of the Enemy Guild while Nobody is Online.
And would then run the nice Music Bot in Teamspeak while effectively Camping with ever more of my own Guild Members inside their Walls. Greeting anyone of them who Logs in with a Nice Shower of Arrows Fired down on him from their very own walls. And an well Equipped Ganking Group to Kill anyone who dares logging in and Leaving his House.

While I cant destroy their Stuff just yet.
This way I can pretty much Block their Guild from the Game entirely. I can block them from their Respawn Points while also making sure they have very Limited Equipment because they get only whats inside their Spawnpoints.

I certainly managed to kill several of them when they logged in as certainly not all were logged out inside their house so they would already have several unequipped people.
And also would enjoy the Advantage of using the Walls to Fire down on them. As well as having an organized Group while they would need to log in all together and organize without being there beforehand.

Meaning that I would enjoy a Huge Advantage in any Fight happening now.

If they Respawn Central City they would be without Equipment entirely and thus no Danger.
And if they Spawn inside their houses even if they got Spare Equipment ready there. They would be surrounded and unable to form up meaning they would face us from vastly inferior position.

So they would be Pinned.
Once the Battle hours Start we would be able to start destroying their Personal Claims and Outskirts. Meaning we would damage them down even Further.
But more Importandly we would effectively keep em out of the Game for the entire time we are there.
Which is Incredible Frustrating for any of their Members cause they cant Play the Game.




I am sure you Realize that there is a massive Potential for any Mechanics of Scaling Walls outside the Battle Hours.
To be used for circumventing the entire idea of Battle Time Windows. As it would effectively allow to Crush an Guild by Attacking them when nobody is Online and then await them inside their own Castle.



So the Question is.
Is this Intended to be Possible.
Is it Intended that you can Attack an Castle in Offhours when nobody is Online. Get over the Walls when nobody is Online.
And then Block an Enemy Guild from Playing the Game entirely by Camping inside their Base.


I would like some Clarification on this.
If it is Intended I would of course ask you to Reconsider this.
Because I can Guarantee you. Many of the Guilds which would suffer from such an Attack would be very Frustrated and likely many of these Players would leave the Game right away because they would not feel like they lost an actual Battle but like they got Cheated.

If this is NOT Intended. I would ask you what your planning to do to prevent this.
For example like.
:The Floating Items are going to be removed when Siege Ladders come in. And Siege Ladders can only be used in an Actual Siege Battle or only during Battle Hours.



Greetz and Thanks in Advance.

[Azzerhoden]

<yet more ignorance>

You have been told, multiple times, what the vision of this game is, with proof. going back 8 years. It isn't going to change no matter how many whiny posts you make about it.

If a guild decides to have players online and running around a hostile claim to harass the members, then that's what they do. That's why this is a sandbox game, with no safe zones (other than the starting city).

If you decide that this is not the world for you, then you should feel free to start up your own YO server, set your own rules, and attract all those players you think want the same things.

[Sharana]

Forget this huge wall of text with so much useless words. Learn to type short and with essence
You won't get devs answer to that, that's like 101%.

If you find a way to formulate your question short and clear you can post it in the Q&A topic and it will get answer (they answer like once a week usually).
mmo-tests-interactive-faq-t19456/

[AndrejVinterskorn]

It's not 100 percent accurate to call the practice of floating objects a place holder for siege ladders, in theory within a world where siege ladders exist they will still be more cost prohibitive than a bark box (20 bark) or a log (free where available).

[sunleader]

Yet more ridiculous attempts at justifying why mechanics that can be abused for griefing should not be fixed.

Actually so far no Evidence for that has been provided from you guys.
You keep claiming it. But I trust you no further than I can throw you.
And I dont even know how heavy you are yet. So even thats not as far as I trust the average stranger I meet on the Street.


And well. Then this Game is done for. Because there will be no actual PvP Battles. Instead we will have Griefing Contests of People attacking each others Claims at 4 o clock in the Night.
And well then it would really not be a Game for me.
It would not be a Game for pretty much everyone aside from Hardcore Griefers like you which also would quit soon cause theres nobody to Grief in the World.


Gladly however. I dont believe you at all. Thats why I am asking for Official Response rather than your self serving attempts to protect this bugged mechanic to abuse it.

[sunleader]

Forget this huge wall of text with so much useless words. Learn to type short and with essence
You won't get devs answer to that, that's like 101%.

If you find a way to formulate your question short and clear you can post it in the Q&A topic and it will get answer (they answer like once a week usually).
mmo-tests-interactive-faq-t19456/

Unfortunately the Question is Fairly Hard to Formulate. As its an deeper Issue.
If I just asked it in the QA I might get an Answer. But the Answer would not be really waterproof because chances of them not understanding the issue would be pretty high.

They did for example answer the Floating Item Issue.
Saying it will be Fixed but likely not before Siege Ladders come around.
That however tells nothing about the actual use of Siege Ladders.
It also tells nothing about how they plan to fix it.


I would hope for an actual Answer to this Concrete Issue.
Hence the long Question with the whole Explanation.

[sunleader]

It's not 100 percent accurate to call the practice of floating objects a place holder for siege ladders, in theory within a world where siege ladders exist they will still be more cost prohibitive than a bark box (20 bark) or a log (free where available).

To begin with I have yet to see any actual Statements from the Dev side that this is Intended to work this way.

Its true that they said they wont fix it until the Siege Ladders come around.
But the wording they said: "fix it" implies that this is an bug and not intended to work this way.
Its just a tolerated bug until proper mechanics are implemented.
Which means that nobody actually knows if the proper mechanics are actually going to allow stuff like that.


Its for example possible. That Siege Equipment will not be available to Mount outside Battle Times. Or might even be limited to actual Announced Siege Battles.
And its possible this was planned in this way from the Start.

Which would mean the current Bug they tolerate with the Floating Items. Is offering an possible abuse they dont bother fixing because it wont exist later on anyways and thus is not worth the extra work it would need to make it work properly right now.



This would heavily contradict the Claim of the two above.
Which keep yapping about this Griefer rubbish being the Idea of the Game. And that this way to abuse it for Offhour Attacks and Circumvent the Battle Hours Idea thats supposed to keep Battles to an Time Window where people are actually Online to Fight each other.
And I really doubt that they would on purpose include Mechanics like the Battle Hours which are supposed to prevent people Attacking Settlements when nobody is Online.
And then provide mechanics that can be used to just Circumvent this.

It makes no sense for them to first prevent a certain action by an mechanic.
And then add other mechanics that allow players to just do that certain action anyways by circumventing the mechanic against it.

[Azzerhoden]

To begin with I have yet to see any actual Statements from the Dev side that this is Intended to work this way.

http://lifeisfeudal.com/forum/terraforming-bugged-or-doing-it-wrong-t1122/page10/?hilit=climb#p12699

http://lifeisfeudal.com/forum/post85181/?hilit=wall#p85181 #193 - Note that he calls it a feature

http://lifeisfeudal.com/forum/post87385/?hilit=wall#p87385
Notice on the last link that it specifically asks about log ladders, as in, using logs to get over a wall.

Game over Jester, go home now.

[sunleader]

To begin with I have yet to see any actual Statements from the Dev side that this is Intended to work this way.

http://lifeisfeudal.com/forum/terraforming-bugged-or-doing-it-wrong-t1122/page10/?hilit=climb#p12699

http://lifeisfeudal.com/forum/post85181/?hilit=wall#p85181 #193 - Note that he calls it a feature

http://lifeisfeudal.com/forum/post87385/?hilit=wall#p87385
Notice on the last link that it specifically asks about log ladders, as in, using logs to get over a wall.

Game over Jester, go home now.

Nice try Griefer.
But maybe you should read that properly.

1. Link talks about a later Feature.
He especially mentions it will be a high lvl skill with high stamina drain which takes a while.

2. Link is asked about CLIMBING not about using floating items.

3. Link is about mechanics during Siege Battles. Its not related to Offhours.



None of that is Evidence that they want to allow Offhour Griefing Attacks.

[Azzerhoden]

To begin with I have yet to see any actual Statements from the Dev side that this is Intended to work this way.

http://lifeisfeudal.com/forum/terraforming-bugged-or-doing-it-wrong-t1122/page10/?hilit=climb#p12699

http://lifeisfeudal.com/forum/post85181/?hilit=wall#p85181 #193 - Note that he calls it a feature

http://lifeisfeudal.com/forum/post87385/?hilit=wall#p87385
Notice on the last link that it specifically asks about log ladders, as in, using logs to get over a wall.

Game over Jester, go home now.

Nice try Griefer.
But maybe you should read that properly.

1. Link talks about a later Feature.
He especially mentions it will be a high lvl skill with high stamina drain which takes a while.

2. Link is asked about CLIMBING not about using floating items.

3. Link is about mechanics during Siege Battles. Its not related to Offhours.



None of that is Evidence that they want to allow Offhour Griefing Attacks.

ROFL - You are so ridicules. Any hope you have for swaying anyone with half a brain was just lost.

Using items to climb over walls is perfectly legitimate, as stated by Bobik. Players are not supposed to be safe behind walls, as stated by Bobik.

You are wrong. Period. As stated by multiple people. Yet you demanded proof, and I provided it. You can continue to believe whatever alt-facts you wish, but everyone else knows your title of Jester is justly earned.

[sunleader]

Sigh....

Your the ridiculous one.
The links you post say nothing about my question.

My Question is and remains if the Tactic I described in the opening Post is supposed to be how this Game is played. And your not qualified to answer this. So if you need attention go pester a beehive or something.

[Sharana]

Sorry to disappoint someone, but I did bother asking the question as someone clearly didn't want it answered only to have reasons to spam the forums daily further (or he would have asked in the right place where answers can come like the Q&A topic).

http://i.imgur.com/FFu8ooB.png

I will even save you the google translate and will translate the relative part, the other is for the instanced battles and stuff.

2. Many (mainly RPers coming from YO servers with 5+ pages of rules) complain about the bark boxing inside the claims. It's clear that this is placeholder, but even in the future where there are ladders and climbing - is it a game feature that you can penetrate walls outside of JH or you will make it combat mechanic only after all available only during JH times?

Bobik: 2. Yep, we won't deny the ways to penetrate a claim outside of JH - that's normal. But we will make the bell towers that will provide the defenders bonus for fighting on their own land outside of JH.

The most reasonable "whine" I saw was about the theoretical situation where group enters mid night and camps like 14 hours non stop to gain some advantage when the official battle starts. Quite unrealistic for me to benefit from such action.

Bobik: Had such camping sieges 100 times, even took part in such. It's complicated enough - the defenders can rally their forces and recapture the castle, destroy house/wall if needed, open gates for allies etc.

(Bobik has rich gaming experience btw - UO, AO, Shadowbane, Wurm, Darkfall etc).

Yeah, if we talk about LiF I personally definitely don't see a problem. If you don't have a keep with armory room where you can rally all your forces and gear them up to retake your area or to be transported to the instanced battle in full capacity it's ridiculous to have complains about "camping".

Bobik:

[Azzerhoden]

Though I am sure you will be accused of making all of that up.

[sunleader]

I dont see why he would make it up.
Problem is he is not really asking what i asked.

Just like you he limits it solely to the question of getting inside walls outside JH.
The Answer especially includes the reference that Defenders will be given a bonus in such a fight.

My Question however is about the abuse of wall climbing mechanics in offhours when there is no defenders.




Last comment irrelevant by the way.
The last comment is a true pearl.
Have you checked playercounts for these games.....

They are DEAD.
So yeah worked great in these Games lol.

Good if you got an Armory Room.
But how will you reach it?
Needless to say.
Until you got an sufficient Strike Group ready you cant play the Game.



Sorry but i.ll stay with my question here.
I would ask the FAQ but i still got an open question there which has been there for quige some time now with no response.

And I dont speak Russian either so whatever you used is outside my reach

[Sharana]

My Question however is about the abuse of wall climbing mechanics in offhours when there is no defenders.

Hmm, I wonder who is lacking the reading skills. It's exactly what you complain about, read it slowly again.

- The most reasonable "whine" I saw was about the theoretical situation where group enters mid night and camps like 14 hours non stop to gain some advantage when the official battle starts. Quite unrealistic for me to benefit from such action.

Bobik: Had such camping sieges 100 times, even took part in such. It's complicated enough - the defenders can rally their forces and recapture the castle, destroy house/wall if needed, open gates for allies etc.

Good if you got an Armory Room.
But how will you reach it?
Needless to say.
Until you got an sufficient Strike Group ready you cant play the Game.

Your only valid complain is that they can camp you for like 14 hours (from the moment they jump inside to the instanced/siege battle start) and prevent you from entering the instance in full strength. Right? Well if you have a keep you can reach it with either a fight or just get killed by the enemy and respawn inside the said keep where you can wait your res. sickness, gear up and be ready to be transported in the instance in full strength. But if you can't drive the enemy off your claim with all the advantages defenders get before the instance your chances to win are slim to none anyway, so it doesn't matter at all.

[sunleader]

No thats just one of the options possible by abusing this mechanic.
Its not my only complaint by miles.


1.
Problem. See this is why i said already I was in such Sieges as well.
But there is an importand Difference here.

In these other Games. Players got a Private and 100% Secure Bank in an Fully NPC Run City which could not be Conquered.
And you could Spawn there or go there as Ghost (depending on game)

So yes. If you got Ambushed you would be able to Recapture the Castle in theory at least.
Because that in itself is already absurd and completely destroys any sense of Immersion.

But think about it.
Where do you Spawn in LiF and how many 100% secure storages do you have in NPC Towns that have NPC Guards protecting you?

Then you.ll realize. That aside from this being totally idiotic if you as defender would have to siege your castle because it was occupied before battle....
It would not work in LiF cuz you got no external safe storage as well as lacking a way to reach npc guarded storages if there was one.


Honestly said.
When he said he had 100s such Sieges. You should have become very big ears.
Cuz why do you think he had 100s such sieges?
Because they were so easy to beat or so inefficient?
Nope. Because thats the standard in games like these dead ones you listed.


If I am occupying your houses where you spawn. Then how do you reach your armory which is inside your castle that i am occupying?
You going for a naked run from your house to the armory breaking trough my lines of equipped fighters?
Or you going to spawn in npc capital walk all the way to your keep naked and then try to siege me out of your castle?


Sorry but thats just stupid.
The only way to get into a wall should be by attacking it during JH.

Any ways to get over it outside JH will only result in Wars were Battle will be avoidedin favor of offhour griefing.
Wars wont be decided on the Battlefield. But by who can muster more people that are unemployed and thus can take over enemy defenses when nobody is online.
Not very fun if you ask me...

[Sharana]

As there isn't much point in discussing I will say only few stuff as final.

1. There is safe storage called capital city where you can rent space/storage and no one can steal it or kill you there, consider it protected by invisible guards.

2. If you have a keep and you get killed you automatically spawn inside (not in a house) and no enemy can open the doors outside of JH. So you are completely safe there spawning right into your armory together with everyone else.

3. You don't need to "siege" your own castle - you can open the gates or destroy something to help secure it anytime. If you are so bad or just really outnumbered you can just leave the gates open and call ally guild/s to come and clear your town for you.

[sunleader]

As there isn't much point in discussing I will say only few stuff as final.

1. There is safe storage called capital city where you can rent space/storage and no one can steal it or kill you there, consider it protected by invisible guards.

2. If you have a keep and you get killed you automatically spawn inside (not in a house) and no enemy can open the doors outside of JH. So you are completely safe there spawning right into your armory together with everyone else.

3. You don't need to "siege" your own castle - you can open the gates or destroy something to help secure it anytime. If you are so bad or just really outnumbered you can just leave the gates open and call ally guild/s to come and clear your town for you.

Well of course there is no sense in discussing lol.
This abusable mechanic only serves for griefing. Thats undisputable.

1.
From what i read and got told.
Stuff near capital can only be rented by real money. So you saying only wallet Warriors should be allowed to have Castles?

2.
Which still means your pinned in your armory and even thats only possible if you got a high lvl keep which can keep the Armory inside the Main Building.

3.
Correct Siege.
Because thats what it is if you destroy walls etc.
Opening the Gate still means the enemy has your walls.
And as they can build stuff there they can barricade the Gate.
Also not everyone has allied Guilds.

And also. You will be outnumbered even if your guild is twice as big.
Because they planned this and thus are all online.
Your guys will just log in before the battletime or on their own shedule.




Why the fuck are you guys so stuck up on protecting the option of Occupying an Castle in the offhours when nobody is online?
This can only be used for one thing. Which is Griefing with Offhour Attacks to avoid actual Battles and deny them from playing the Game.

What do need this mechanic for if your not a griefer?

[Azzerhoden]

Why the fuck are you guys so stuck up on protecting the option of Occupying an Castle in the offhours when nobody is online?
This can only be used for one thing. Which is Griefing with Offhour Attacks to avoid actual Battles and deny them from playing the Game.

What do need this mechanic for if your not a griefer?

Because its a non-issue.

Yeah - they can get on the base when you are gone, but they cannot DO ANYTHING, unless you log in, then they can attack you. So ALWAYS be ready to be attacked. NEVER walk around with anything you are not prepared to lose. What's that? You need to move some Steel ingots? Move them ONE AT A TIME.

You want the game to protect you, which is why we keep telling you this is not the game for you. Because in THIS GAME you are expected to PROTECT YOURSELF at ALL TIMES

[sunleader]

Why the fuck are you guys so stuck up on protecting the option of Occupying an Castle in the offhours when nobody is online?
This can only be used for one thing. Which is Griefing with Offhour Attacks to avoid actual Battles and deny them from playing the Game.

What do need this mechanic for if your not a griefer?

Because its a non-issue.

Yeah - they can get on the base when you are gone, but they cannot DO ANYTHING, unless you log in, then they can attack you. So ALWAYS be ready to be attacked. NEVER walk around with anything you are not prepared to lose. What's that? You need to move some Steel ingots? Move them ONE AT A TIME.

You want the game to protect you, which is why we keep telling you this is not the game for you. Because in THIS GAME you are expected to PROTECT YOURSELF at ALL TIMES

Thats just Bullshit. Sorry to be Blunt.
But this completely ruins the entire concept of even having Walls at all in the Game.

Because Walls are not giving you any Benefit in Defensive at all.
They only give your Enemies an option to use your own Walls against you by occupying them while your Offline.


This is an Gigantic Issue. Because it ruins Warfare entirely.
Instead of having actual Battles. And actual Sieges.
You get Offhours Attacks. And People blocking other Players from Playing the Game and Griefing them when others are not Online.


With that the entire Mechanic of having JH or later Wartimes. Is pretty much useless. Because there will be no reason to attack in the time window where you know there will be resistance.
Instead everyone will just Attack in the Offhours. Killing and Griefing the few Enemy Members online rather than having any Battle in the Battle Window when the Enemy is actually Online with equal Numbers.



Are you guys really that Scared of having Fair Fights if you want to Attack someone ?
Sorry but thats just a Griefing Mechanic. It serves no Purpose.
Heck you cant even Name a Purpose other than Griefing yourself.

This Mechanic only serves to avoid Battles.
Its an absuable Mechanic that only helps small Griefer Guilds which wont have any Castle themselves and which will abuse the shit out of this Mechanic to keep other Players out of the Game.

[Sharana]

In the FAQ:
mmo-tests-interactive-faq-t19456/page480/#p101354

• Answer: Exactly! Yes, we DO confirm that cheap stone walls are NOT designed to provide 100% safety for those who are inside. Good walls are nothing without good defenders on them.

[Brother]

I haven't read through this whole thread but instead came here after reading Sharana's question on the FAQ.

For me, I dislike bark box ladders and floating logs for one reason and one reason alone: they look stupidly unrealistic! In certain situations they look so unrealistic that they do look like an exploit or an abuse of game mechanics.

I also think the "you shouldn't be safe behind your walls" argument to defend barkbox ladders is silly. Of course you shouldn't be 100% safe behind your walls. Scaling walls is part of the game and should be part of the game - but there should be way more legit ways to do it. Please stop defending something that should be replaced.

Can't wait for siege ladders and a proper climbing mechanic. Hopefully they're cheap enough/easy enough to place so we can stop hopping on little boxes like cute platformer characters.

[Sharana]

Please stop defending something that should be replaced.

There is huge difference. The "defense" is more along the line keep it for gameplay reasons until the proper and even easier methods are implemented. The demands to remove the barkboxes and floating items on the other hand are more along the line of "fix this now!" (with no alternative available) and "I should be protected if I have my walls".

[Brother]

Fair enough. I was just pointing out that the reason many people dislike them (and make them against the rules on YO servers) is not because they want to be safe behind their walls, but because they look completely unrealistic and defy any sense of physics, which in turn ruins immersion for a lot of players.

I'm glad we can agree that the sooner we get real siege ladders, the better

[Azzerhoden]

Fair enough. I was just pointing out that the reason many people dislike them (and make them against the rules on YO servers) is not because they want to be safe behind their walls, but because they look completely unrealistic and defy any sense of physics, which in turn ruins immersion for a lot of players.

I'm glad we can agree that the sooner we get real siege ladders, the better

I also completely agree. But there is no real way of preventing it. If climbing and siege ladders get added and is slower than stacking things, then things will be stacked.

There are also ways to design/structure walls and buildings to make it much more difficult for players to easily get over a wall. Many folks know this already, but for those that don't, take the time to play around on YO.

Regardless of the game design, players will find a way to 'grief' other players. The only way to prevent this is by having other players be online. Attempts to prevent it through rules or game mechanics are only effective AFTER the attack has occurred and will help everyone else BUT you. That's the way it is in a PvP game, and Life, for that matter.

Real leadership plans and prepares for it.

[Forresthunt]

we are playing a game, a game in early stage of developmant. I'm sure developers didn't intend for the boxes, tables, sleeping bags and so on to be siege weapons and they are well aware of that problem. probably, some day in the future we will get our siege ladders but not before they figure out how to prevent us from having fun building pyramids from bark-boxes. At this moment, even if implemented, ladders are useless comparing to "cheap" boxes that would work much the same.
I'll say let them work on the in hand problem and get the MMO running online. Rounding out the corners can be done later.
This topic will not go away, too many people are for and against it.

I would strongly suggest to go on YO, get into a God Mode and play around to figure out how to build so to prevent/slow down other when climbing over the walls. You will find more than one solution to the problem. it will not be easy or pretty but that's what it is now and we have to deal with it.

another way to do is it find some remote or difficult to access location making it not worth the time or effort to attack.
Kepping away from desierable resorces could help.
you will have a very slow start, but probably, just probably, sleep a bit better later on.

all the best to ALL of YOU. I'm gonna go now and get me some branches