Horse fights and anti-cavalry and IB stuff

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Mybrainisanut
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Horse fights and anti-cavalry and IB stuff

Post by Mybrainisanut » 04 Sep 2017, 13:02

Hey guys,
after the Q&A from the 18th Aug. I thought a lot about the combat against and with horses, did a lot of research technical wise for horses and weapons and felt like the combat is way too static and forgiving for either lancers or pike men.


The things I want to talk about and try to adjust is:
1. Lancer riding down and instantly killing enemies
2. Pikes being too static to be practical in fights
3. Horse riders being able to instantly sit on their horses again
4. People blocking off horses just by standing in front of them or jumping
5. Invisible walls which dismount riders
6. Heavy Warhorse “Unstoppable”-skill
Let me start with saying I do not “hate” or “love” either anti cavalry nor the cavalry itself, I just like to see a lot of different builds and weapons used in big fights.


1. Lancer riding down and instantly killing enemies
The issue with this was first appearing when the falling damage was introduced to the game. I do not say it’s a bad idea, it’s just a bug. The physics in this game is determined by speed and falling range in every direction x-y-z axis. I’m not into the Tourqe engine enough to see a solution but an idea is to remove the falling damage in x-y axis and remove the speed bonuses on falling in z axis. Can’t determine the programming work.
As this bug apprears to be the strongest out of all “abuseables” in a fight and can cost a lot of very little effort, this should be on the to-do list.


2. Pikes being too static to be practical in fights
Pikes are a mess. They are not very well thought trough – not gonna blame you guys, it just does not feel nice to play with them. First of all the animation times for hitting is super huge. Let me just copy them from your files (because I can…..)

ShortPike:
BasePrefireAnimTime = 0.7;
BaseFireAnimTime = 3.0;
BaseRecoilAnimTime = 0.9;
In total: 4,5

MediumPike:
BasePrefireAnimTime = 1.0;
BaseFireAnimTime = 3.0;
BaseRecoilAnimTime = 1.0;
In total 5

LongPike:
BasePrefireAnimTime = 1.0;
BaseFireAnimTime = 3.0;
BaseRecoilAnimTime = 1.2;
In total: 5,2

The damage to horses or the riders is only dealt at the BasePrefireAnimTime+BaseFireAnimTime if they do ride into your pike during the BaseFireAnimTime. This means you need to start attacking (with all pikes) 3 seconds prior to a horse riding into you. 3 seconds is enough time for the riders to adjust their path and either escape the damage or reduce the chance to even being hit because of the pike hitbox. Again, damage is only dealt if they do ride into your pike on point during the 3 seconds, damage dealt is after the 3 seconds. This is insane because they are still able to hit you. Just think about you stopping the horse normally and they would still ride into you, dealing damage anyway.
Also riding slightly from the side, the pike does not deal damage as well. As soon as I got a few pictures ready I will explain this further with the pics. All in all, the animation times should be reduced!
Beeing unable to move is a bad idea. I suggest players moving as slowly as with a shield and maybe implementing a new skill for pike men to run having the pike up(besides the pike wall), attacking should instantly stop their movement anyway (should be a very high level skill).
Comparing the pikewall and the normal attacks, the pike wall is at a huge disadvantage and will never be used under fighting circumstances. This is because the animation times a super long and you are an easy target for everyone! I suggest the pike wall to be a oneshot killer for horses but break after it’s use. This is because it’s at such a disadvantage that ever beeing able to hit a horse with it should be this good.
The chance to dismount riders does not work correctly. There is a chance that horses will receive damage and just keep on riding through you, dealing damage. The point of a pike is totally off of this!! This should be balanced accordingly so that not everyone can be dismounted all the time (e.g. Heavy and Spirited Warhorses). An idea would be that pikes will always stop horses but dismount only those not having Spirited, Heavy or Royal Warhorse.
Also the chance to hit the rider for over 100 damage is insane. It’s a realistic idea but it’s not fun in fights. Players beeing hit with the pike should not receive those high numbers of damage.
In the same way, pikes should be considered guard weapons for the needed dedication into the skill.
Summary:
Reduce the animation times.
Pikes hitting horses should dismount riders without special skills or horses.
Players using the pike should not stay statically until they attack but for the attack only.
The Wall Pike should be a oneshot killer but receive insane durability damage for it to break after this.
Players should receive way less damage from pikes than they currently do. (Short pike~40-80dmg Medium pikes ~80-100dmg Long pikes~70-120 depending on speed, mounted or on foot, quality of weapon, strength of wielder)


3. Horse riders being able to instantly sit on their horses again
Having finally dismounted a rider is a laughable gesture. Just standing up and pressing E is enough to prevent beeing killed for a good reason – riding into enemies without tactical approaches ends in dismounts most of the time. Dismounted riders should have a short debuff making them unable to sit on a horse again. Getting dismounted in the wild without enemies nearby is not dangerous. Beeing in a fight and carelessly riding into enemies is and should be punished.


4. People blocking off horses just by standing in front of them or jumping
When a rider got dismounted the first thing you normally do is just stand in front of the horse and with a big group let two others stand left and right from its head. The rider is then unable to move but backwards, which is slow. When an enemy just jumps right the moment you would ride him/her down, the horse will stop because the jump is considers the character in an unmovable state x-y axis wise.
The first difficulty has to do with the speed of an horse. I’m not going into detail for this, the DEV’s do know what I mean. Just starting to ride should not stop a horse from pushing back characters normally.
The second one is a physics and animation problem. I do not have any idea about those two things so I can’t suggest anything but maybe having the jump still be able to be translated into the falling animation, if this even works like that :D
When riding against another horse from the side you also will get thrown down. Consider this beeing part of point 5.


5. Invisible walls which dismount riders
Plain and simple, riders should never be dismounted unless it’s in a damage receiving way. Riding against a wall, no dismount, riding into spikes or similar (ending in damage), dismount. Having written about this in point 4, riding against another horse and receiving a hit from an enemy lance should not trigger the dismount.


6. Heavy Warhorse “Unstoppable”-Skill
Another, just very less used skill is the Unstoppable skill for a Heavy Warhorse. The problem isn’t reaching the skill or having a Heavy Warhorse, it’s the idea and the function behind the different horse speed states. I’m talking about “Top Gear” @ Devs’s :D
For the community: A horse has 10 different speed states. 0-Backwards 1-Standing still 2-10 different speeds. Galloping is considered a state when the horse speed reaches 16. Speed is not the speed state!!
For a heavy warhorse, the max. speed is 16. So you have to be able to reach your max speed. For everyone beeing a rider you know you would never speed up your horse to the max nor is it possible to maintain this speed very well in a battle situation. So this skill is, even beeing the sole reason Heavy Warhorses could be considered a good alternative to mobility, a total waste.
Idea to change this? Give the Heavy and Royal Warhorse different speeds, have the skill work earlier, maybe at Trot speed (speed needed is 10).

For further explanation:
Image


All in all I think those changes could be a way to increase the skill needed for lancers to attack enemies, make it easier for them to deal fatal blows. It would speed up the fights against horses and support group approaches like a shock cavalry. The current way it works is not nice to watch nor nice to play. It’s frustrating for both anti cavalry and cavalry because of the bugs, incredible mobility differences and the horse working more as a worthless second life than a companion to fight with and use its advantages.
In the same way it would increase the chance to defend infantry groups with certain skills and make pikes viable in them without sacrificing mobility while reducing hybrid builds to be useful in both, anti infantry and anti cavalry fights.
As for the pike itself, I’ll add further information as I get the chance to work it out, which I currently do not have.

Edit: As of points 2 and 5, having a Spirited Warhorse or higher and the rider use "Iron Grip" should never stop a rider unless it's through a pike wall or anti cavalry buildings. As for other horses, "Iron Grip" should negate the chance for spears or pole arms to dismount riders on any horse but normal horses.

Edit 2: German translation (more or less) https://pastebin.com/w8LrpNSF
Changed some meanings. Will also change the ideas a bit as it's difficult for me to express myself understandable in this matter.

Edit 3: Title
Last edited by Mybrainisanut on 07 Sep 2017, 19:22, edited 3 times in total.
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Baal
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Re: Horse fights and anti-cavalry

Post by Baal » 04 Sep 2017, 15:06

There is many improvment like that to achieve to make this game as good as it should be. Those suggestions sound good.
I agree a running horse should topple any humain standing on the way like a bowling pin, taking little collision damage in the process.
In a realistic world a horse can easily topple one maybe two humans standing in the way (e.g. one ton's horse versus 100kg's human :crazy: ).
In game, each "humain bowling pin" toopled should significantly (and instantly) decrease horse's speed, so a horse shouldn't be able to topple more than 2 or 3 foot soldiers in a row (i.e. depend of the starting speed of the horse).

No doubt dev's are investigating what can be done to solve or improve combat mecanics and physics. It as always been the goal to make an immersive realistic feudal game with all that needs and make it good to play.

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Azzerhoden
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Re: Horse fights and anti-cavalry

Post by Azzerhoden » 04 Sep 2017, 16:06

I'm not going to argue against any of the things you just mentioned, but I will point out that much of the things you see in the game are that way from a balancing aspect, not a recreation aspect.
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Mybrainisanut
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Re: Horse fights and anti-cavalry

Post by Mybrainisanut » 04 Sep 2017, 18:40

Azzerhoden wrote:I'm not going to argue against any of the things you just mentioned, but I will point out that much of the things you see in the game are that way from a balancing aspect, not a recreation aspect.


I was hoping for a conversation about why the current system is fine or what can be changed or not, because I'm not the only one that thought about this. I was just thinking about giving those ideas a voice after I've discussed ideas with a few people.
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Azzerhoden
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Re: Horse fights and anti-cavalry

Post by Azzerhoden » 04 Sep 2017, 23:09

Mybrainisanut wrote:
Azzerhoden wrote:I'm not going to argue against any of the things you just mentioned, but I will point out that much of the things you see in the game are that way from a balancing aspect, not a recreation aspect.


I was hoping for a conversation about why the current system is fine or what can be changed or not, because I'm not the only one that thought about this. I was just thinking about giving those ideas a voice after I've discussed ideas with a few people.


The issue with making the game more realistic is where do you draw the line? Horses are actually rather fragile creatures (fragile when you consider swinging a sword at them). Falling off of them can also be quite dangerous. Let's not even get into jumping them off the ground at a dead run or riding them down a steep hill. Then of course, there is always my favorite 'realism versus game play comparison', putting them away in the handy dandy backpack.

The bottom line is that the devs have to balance realism, game balance, and fun. At this point I am most interested in game balance, as the game is too far along toward release to start making major changes in game design.
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Mybrainisanut
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Re: Horse fights and anti-cavalry

Post by Mybrainisanut » 05 Sep 2017, 04:13

Azzerhoden wrote:The issue with making the game more realistic is where do you draw the line? Horses are actually rather fragile creatures (fragile when you consider swinging a sword at them). Falling off of them can also be quite dangerous. Let's not even get into jumping them off the ground at a dead run or riding them down a steep hill. Then of course, there is always my favorite 'realism versus game play comparison', putting them away in the handy dandy backpack.

The bottom line is that the devs have to balance realism, game balance, and fun. At this point I am most interested in game balance, as the game is too far along toward release to start making major changes in game design.


Talking about realism, in terms of cavalry fighting you had several diffrent troups. Suppprting ones, shock cavalry, flanking cavalry... most of the time the sound and speed was a tool to scare the enemies and seeing as a armored giant creature approaches as a group of several riders, you would most likely shit yourself if you're not well trained. There are scripts from around that age where a handfull of knights slaughtering down hundereds of farmers and only one knight lost it's life. And the reason was falling off the horse in full plate armor while trying to mount it.
So in terms of reaslim we would need machines to mount horses. We would need them to have blinkers, dismount riders the moment they get hit hard, have them take significantly more damage when hit in the feet...

Most of the suggestions are about game fun or I wouldn't even try to suggest them. Realism in this matter is long failed.
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Re: Horse fights and anti-cavalry

Post by Sharana » 06 Sep 2017, 18:32

Mybrainisanut wrote:Most of the suggestions are about game fun or I wouldn't even try to suggest them. Realism in this matter is long failed.


Well they are ... fun from your perspective, just not everyone's :)
If you talk about fun what about the horse bumping in cavalry vs cavalry fights? Is it fun?

Also the thing is - lancers and (mounted) archers are the ultimate weapons in small scale or MMO field battle with no objectives. That's the "Mongolian warfare" meta. Yet this is not a goal to balance out. The combat in LiF is tailored for large scale fights with point based objective (this is Instance battle, JH and siege as the 3 main forms of MMO battle). The goal is to have diversity there. If they see many lancers there then they will know they need big nerf, but guess what - they don't and won't see big numers of lancers there. So they are not seen as problem - the slow lancing nerf was needed as it was too easy to kill the anti-cav guys, esp in small scale battles.

So pretty much all the changes you propose are about addressing their over-performance in small scale. Which for now they have no plans to do as it will change the balance of the large scale which they started to like as the troops composition are way more diverse then they were 6 months ago and the cavalry part in particular is reduced significantly.

What you see is never what it really is. For example I'm in the alliance that fielded huge amounts of cavalry for the CBT MMO battles and the alliance with the highest % lancers as was obvious during those battles. But do you know what it really means? Probably no, so let me show you:

Image

This is from middle march, like 2 weeks after the current PvP skilltree was implemented. Based on the active fighters in the alliance at that time (170 or so).
Yes less then 25% lancers. What was boosting them was 10% more infantry in the role if light cavalry. And of course the mounted archers and crossbowmans for another 45%, so when you draw the line we had 80% fighting "Mongolian style".

Now it does look much different after the IBs, but I can't share you the data pulled out of 190 or so guys on my side as it's not old enough. The devs like such stuff, so they've seen the latest too. On top of that they have logs from IBs, so they can see what the other side had in case they aren't showing them some data like me (like the 106 vs 156 last Sunday that killed the servers). And Bobik said he likes the diversity now, much better then in the past.

The ones that really need love right now are the 2 handers in plate - the poor guys are close to 5% because of various factors. They are the first getting attention, very soon as stop gap they will see lowered strength requirements for their builds and increased damage on their weapons. A bit later reviewed chopping damage multipliers vs durability to allow weapon like broad axe to destroy a shield in 2 to 3 hits + some other stuff. The unpopular melee weapons are getting a pass as well to get them more useful (they need to sell skins for them after all :) ).

So the cavalry is not seen as a problem and when you get to the MMO IBs you will understand why - if you did already that topic wouldn't have existed, so I assume you didn't experience them - only small % are involved after all.

About the heavy horses - they do have their use, but only in large scale battle - in YO or open world battle their speed is huge disadvantage, so they are not used at all. The full speed is achieved for about 5 seconds riding in a straight line - you do use them as shock cavalry to break shieldwall lines covered by pikes, after that charge it's the other's job to play the maneuvering game where you don't go 5 seconds in a straight line. And yes Wall of Pikes doesn't stop the heavy horses atm as part of their buff, otherwise they would be useless even for that.
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Mybrainisanut
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Re: Horse fights and anti-cavalry

Post by Mybrainisanut » 06 Sep 2017, 19:39

I did experience large group battles. Not those 100 on 100 lagfests but rather 20-20 - 40-40. And this thread isn't about making cav or anti cav "more viable" in IB's.

In any PvP game, you take what's working best to win. Neither cavalry nor anti cav is usefull in the current state because you can't really defend a small area around the totem with them effectivly.

And the cavarly is currently just an abuse of mobilty and running into people in chance to instantly kill them or for cav and anti cav to deal stupid amounts of damage you can't defend against.
Heavy Warhorses aren't used currently as they do not benefit their use. Other are faster and have the same abilities as the heavy warhorses currently have. More speed ends in higher damage due to the damage system(even after the adjustements). Faster speed means more mobility.
As the turning system with horses works, Heavy Warhorses have way less agility even having less speed.
Every small edge on the map, every turn you do with a Heavy Warhorse adjusts it speed to lower than 16. That means you never get a chance to even use "Unstoppable" as there is no flat place in instanced battlefields to use this skill. The two times I saw the totem being placed was either near a forest or on a hill.

And I was playing anti cav for a certain time, and I can assure you you can't do anything against a good rider, regardless of your skills because the animation times are ridiciulous. If you ever hit someone with a long pike it's like a oneshot for no reason, too. The luck to skill involved chart is bad, for both sides. Cavalry as anti cav.

On the same line horse riders do dismount like 80% of the time because they either can't ride and crash, crash into other horses during a fight meanwhile neither deals damage to the other or stuck on invisible walls.

Noone can tell me, that's fun.

Another matter is, to just ask how many of your horseriders do need horses after those battles. As said, they are tools to just crash into others more than a tool to fight with and use the abilities you get. Hardy Warhorses are the to go, good speed, enough life and stamina, easy to produce for wasting.

Also I'm totally on your side with thoe 2H weapons. I started playing LiF with 2H weapons and whatever they've becoming is totally unclear to me, still another topic.

Anyway, I'm not asking for a instant "urgent change" in this matter, the point was to create a topic to discuss it.
Believe it or not, I do have my experience in game development and I rather see a LiF finished with what they want to finish and those things polished more than a perfectly balanced fight system but totally bugged and unplayable game as a whole.
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Re: Horse fights and anti-cavalry

Post by Azzerhoden » 07 Sep 2017, 16:28

Sharana, for those who were using shields - were they using spears + shields? I ask because I almost never see anyone running around with a shield and piercing weapon, or even a shield + sword anymore.
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Sharana
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Re: Horse fights and anti-cavalry

Post by Sharana » 07 Sep 2017, 18:03

Azzerhoden wrote:Sharana, for those who were using shields - were they using spears + shields? I ask because I almost never see anyone running around with a shield and piercing weapon, or even a shield + sword anymore.


Gross messer is quite popular. Piercing weapons are indeed rear yes, so it's either boar spear or gross messer for like 90% of them.
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Re: Horse fights and anti-cavalry

Post by Camil199197 » 07 Sep 2017, 19:00

Sharana wrote:The ones that really need love right now are the 2 handers in plate - the poor guys are close to 5% because of various factors. They are the first getting attention, very soon as stop gap they will see lowered strength requirements for their builds and increased damage on their weapons. A bit later reviewed chopping damage multipliers vs durability to allow weapon like broad axe to destroy a shield in 2 to 3 hits + some other stuff. The unpopular melee weapons are getting a pass as well to get them more useful (they need to sell skins for them after all :) ).



The main problem with the 2H players are that they have almost zero snyergy effects with other classes in large battles. As a 2H you need a lot of space to attack the enemy to not hit your own mate. With Shield +Sword or Spear you can form a formation to stop the attacker easy and can even push hard to the position. Thats not possilbe with 2H at the moment.

The IB is at the moment the worst thing that can happen to a 2H. You cant push or defend that place with a 2H. You are almost useless^^

The new formation buffs even makes it worse for 2H players. You cant play with a 2H good in a formation because of huge space needed to attack.


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Re: Horse fights and anti-cavalry and IB stuff

Post by Mybrainisanut » 07 Sep 2017, 19:45

Changed the title, whatever helps the community to talk about changes... lol.

Sharana wrote:lowered strength requirements for their builds and increased damage on their weapons. A bit later reviewed chopping damage multipliers vs durability to allow weapon like broad axe to destroy a shield in 2 to 3 hits + some other stuff. The unpopular melee weapons are getting a pass as well to get them more useful (they need to sell skins for them after all :) ).


Camil199197 wrote:With Shield +Sword or Spear you can form a formation to stop the attacker easy and can even push hard to the position. Thats not possilbe with 2H at the moment.


About those two hit the nail point blank. 2H weapons deal less damage in contrast to the defense those builds give. With a two hand weapon you're currently a glass cannon compared to shield and one handed weapons.
With the change for bolts beeing equipable on the belt-nodes and the agility reduces for crossbows, shield builds are useable for every situation quite well.
Also 2H weapons lack the close combat fight, quite ironic as they were designed to "berserk".
Their hit boxes in close combat are inferiour to one handed weapons, the reason many people aim down when htting.
In contrast a nice move for the enemy is to just dodge the weapons as the attacker "moves back" the hitbox of the weapon with this move.
In the time you try to strike again the 1H guy just walk up, hits you once and moves out.

Also the hitbox for side swings is big and as said by Camil, doesn't support group play because of the danger of htting friends.
Both thrusting hits and forward hits do deal less damage or have longer animations with a greater chance to miss the enemy as walking to the sides is an easier way to dodge attacks. Also the attack speed compared to other weapons is off the limits slow.

Buffing the damage and lowering the strength requirements in the same patch would just switch the meta from shields to whoever get's killed last in a slaughter fest wins. Same boring way as it's with horses currently on open ground. No skill requiered, just rush and hack down enemies.

Lowering stamina used for hits, lowering the weight in accordance with increasing the damage multiplier for weight would be a nice way to increase the speed with 2H weapons and give a chance for less strength reliable builds without lossing damage. This is because weight defines how much stamina is spent attacking, less stamina used means more available for movement meanwhile less weight also means faster movement.
If someone still wants to be a high damage dealer, it's possible but without the benefits of beeing tanky.

Increasing chopping damage against shields seems like a nice idea but in contrast the damage against characters and animation speed should be the same as the sole reason 1H players would win against 2H players is getting reduced to the shield alone.

The problem that weapons can still hit the arms through shields and ignore them is still not fixed.

As for the formation problems, it's just the situtation as you all already said. In IB's you can't favor all builds.
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Re: Horse fights and anti-cavalry and IB stuff

Post by Sharana » 08 Sep 2017, 00:32

Mybrainisanut wrote:Buffing the damage and lowering the strength requirements in the same patch would just switch the meta from shields to whoever get's killed last in a slaughter fest wins. Same boring way as it's with horses currently on open ground. No skill requiered, just rush and hack down enemies.


I don't mind. If they wanted it to be really skill based we would have other combat system and entirely different design of IBs concept where tactics and movement would matter a lot unlike the simple take or hold a point that we have now.

But we don't - we have a design promoting big battles with minimal tactics involved in short amount of time like sessions based game. You come in the evening, do few IBs and log out. That's what casuals creating the mass do. On top of that we have a design where the personal skill matters less and less with the scale increase. If you have 5 great warriors + 5 avarage against 3 + 7 avarage (10 vs 10 scale) that will be VERY obvious and you will notice those 8 standing out from the other 12 and deciding the outcome with their actions. Yet add the mass to get the 100 vs 100 scale that isn't even big in OBT terms and the picture is completely different - the personal skill has less and less influence. In those blob vs blob standoffs it's the minimal skill level and the team work (following commands, etc) that decide the outcome, not skill of your best fighters that are few in those scales. Also it's 1 thing to get shot from 3 archers and completely different from 30 (the same 30% which are even higher in the real thing) - the unlucky (focused) players and horses die with totally different speed as the arrows still to the same damage. More lancers which means easier blocking of individuals that are fucked if they get catched etc.

The point is the large scale isn't based on individual skill - never was and most likely never won't be as I don't even see how. It's not Mount and Blade where you chop NPCs and feel the superhero :D

And the current meta is archers bombarding both blobs for 5-10 minutes with arrows and naphtha causing as much damage as possible before the 2 melee groups meet to determine the result. Yet what actually has the highest impact is with how much hp both groups have at that point (which archers did better), the skill, formations and the rest are secondary. For that reason all sides still pick more then 1/3 of their composition to be ranged (bows+crossbows), the only difference is they don't fight mounted in the IBs.

So on the topic of boring - for me personally (as lancer, not melee fighter) it will be way more interesting to see bigger melee battles (if they have higher influence on the outcome their numbers will rise) instead of the medieval counter strike we get atm. With less demand on cavalry, because of the different meta in the IBs we are back to the archers party and it's not really more fun compared to the "mongolian warfare". With so many arrows flying around if you are the unlucky guy that catches few of them in a row it feels exactly like this:
https://i.imgur.com/jC3B9sD.gif
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Mybrainisanut
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Re: Horse fights and anti-cavalry and IB stuff

Post by Mybrainisanut » 08 Sep 2017, 17:00

Sharana wrote:So on the topic of boring - for me personally (as lancer, not melee fighter) it will be way more interesting to see bigger melee battles (if they have higher influence on the outcome their numbers will rise) instead of the medieval counter strike we get atm. With less demand on cavalry, because of the different meta in the IBs we are back to the archers party and it's not really more fun compared to the "mongolian warfare". With so many arrows flying around if you are the unlucky guy that catches few of them in a row it feels exactly like this:
https://i.imgur.com/jC3B9sD.gif


Spoiler


Anyway, I'm confused as my thread was to get ideas on how to increase the chance cavalry is usefull in any situation. I did sum up a few ideas and to be fair, focusing the cavalry on more durable horses and lower the chance of random dismount would actually help them to sustain all the arrows - stronger horses do have a faster health regen btw.
If you're of course someone that rides right into the range of archers to get your character hit, than I have no idea on how to deal with that.

Also I know that cavalry currently is in a disadvantage to Defensive Fences. But what's the point in not using them if not for king of the hill fights? So implement variety in points to fight over udring IBs?
Gefangen vom Kreise lichten Scheins,
von unsichtbarer Pflicht nicht zu befrein,
sieht Tage lang das selbe Treiben,
ein Student zu Prüfungszeiten.


Paparia
Beta Tester
 
Posts: 39
Joined: 25 Sep 2014, 07:45

Re: Horse fights and anti-cavalry and IB stuff

Post by Paparia » 09 Sep 2017, 03:28

Azzerhoden wrote:Sharana, for those who were using shields - were they using spears + shields? I ask because I almost never see anyone running around with a shield and piercing weapon, or even a shield + sword anymore.



at the moment piercing weapons (not spears) are not so popular since they are very skill point demanding and don't perform better than spears that are cheaper to use and make

( this are exactly the same reasons spears was more common in ape history)
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