100% Player driven economy

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Monxer
 
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Joined: 22 Feb 2014, 21:00

100% Player driven economy

Post by Monxer » 26 Mar 2014, 08:19

This has be discussed and brought up in several different threads and topics but I don't think this specific idea was exactly pondered on among the discussions and I really want to put a spotlight on it with this thread.

Now I understand the concern with developers thinking that they need to artificially inject currency into the game via the starting city and the very basic merchant NPC's, but to be quite frank I kind of see it as them doubting us. The game has a level of player freedom that I haven't seen in a long time which makes me thrilled to play it, but I can't help but feel as if developers are afraid to go all the way with it.

So my suggestion. Get rid of the starting city. Get rid of the artificial currencies implanted into the game. Instead, make precious metals like silver and gold be able to be pressed into coins by guilds/kingdoms with their specific insignia to give the game a whole new playing field of economic warfare among these factions and trying to press their economic influence across the land.

This idea has so much potential and adds so much more to the game as far as player involvement is concerned. I know this might seem incredibly ambitious but you need to realize there are some players that are more than willing to involve themselves so deeply into the game that they are willing to fuel this dream of a entirely player fueled economy filled with so much political influence tied in with it.


Archaegeo
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Re: 100% Player driven economy

Post by Archaegeo » 26 Mar 2014, 11:04

Our lead designer has a doctorate in Economics so it gives me some hope that the economy will be ok.

The starter city also serves as an extra real world cash source for the company so I do not see it going poof.

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Flannery
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Re: 100% Player driven economy

Post by Flannery » 26 Mar 2014, 11:30

The starter City has its use, do doubt - and also adds real funds to the game. I personally will not argue about the importance of it for the income of the game, even though I wish the map was totally empty when it starts - and I personally would have liked to not seen it in the game. But I still understand why it is there and the importance of it ;)

And even though the OP's idea is a very ambitious idea - I personally like it. I would definitely like something like that in the game, as I have wished it was so in many other games as well. I

In many ways I think you are right that the devs would be reluctant to add such a system - as it is for the more hard-core Realism player - and that narrows the player base quite much. Even though I know many people who would play it if it were like this.
(me personally as well)

But from a dev's point of view it is quite a gamble to take.

Even though the devs try to keep this closer to realism than fantasy, they also have money invested in this - both from them selves, players and investors.

So a source of income is needed - and also compromises must be made about how that flow will be secured for many years. Meaning more players.

And the overall focus is (whether one likes it or not) more towards PvP warfare and crafting - rather than RP and realism - even though both those last categories are very much so present in the game.

Its hard to balance the content and mechanics of such a game - cause there are so many factors to take in to consideration when it comes to play-styles...

And in the end - No one will have it all their way I guess (except maybe for the Dev's :D ), but hopefully it will land on something that still pleases all those player-styles, and the LiF world will still be filled with a diverse mass of "LiFers" (that should be trademarked by now..... :Yahoo!: )
"The enemy of my enemy - is my friend"

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Archaegeo
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Re: 100% Player driven economy

Post by Archaegeo » 26 Mar 2014, 11:43

One drawback to being an economist in the real world is you cannot control many of the variables so it is hard to conduct scientific experiments.

In an MMO he controls all the variables save the reaction of the consumers, so like I said, its kinda nice we have a Doctorial Economist to keep us on track when the time comes.


Antiblitz
 
Posts: 79
Joined: 27 Oct 2013, 17:07

Re: 100% Player driven economy

Post by Antiblitz » 26 Mar 2014, 12:59

Monxer wrote:make precious metals like silver and gold be able to be pressed into coins by guilds/kingdoms with their specific insignia


No, and i only say it because its just excessive.


We havent seen the economy system in action at all, so we arent sure what will happen, however my conclusion until its working is simply this. They will add the ability to make coins from gold you find, however it will be a generic gold coin that can be used in the starter city for purchases or exchange between players. However, just like in Haven & Hearth, which has a player driven economy, they toss aside the coins altogether because you literally cant do anything with them, its a worthless item, you cant eat it, or make things with it. My assumption is that players will begin trading items as currency, trading crops, weapons, or critters in exchange for items they need, which have similar values. The gold will only be used for the purchases within the city, and thats it. I am not alone in this view, and have witnessed it first hand.

Dont forget, the people who are hermiting, or the groups who just dont have the manpower to find ores(under 10), which according to Bobik are quite rare, will suffer in these gold driven economies, they wont have it, while the large player communities will. What do assume they will trade when they have no gold? they will like all others divert to goods, and goods will become the standard item. Why would a hermit, or a village of farmers care for a few coins, when they could receive goods that could help their overall lively-hood in their current situation.

My view is all speculation, but considering its source, i can only concur with it.

This has been discussed before, all of it, the coin pressing kingdoms coat of arms in it and all, so its not new discussion really, if anything its a rehashing of the same 4 pages.

monetary-system-t480/?hilit=coin%20press


Proximo
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Re: 100% Player driven economy

Post by Proximo » 26 Mar 2014, 20:36

Too my knowledge you already smelt gold and silver (Which is very rare) into coins or jewelry or at least that's how it's planned to be. The money you can get from the starter town is to exchange basic resources for basic tools. The market will probably not be flooded with gold because food and all resources will be gold sinks to spread it out and everything decays or breaks over time.


LordWiese
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Re: 100% Player driven economy

Post by LordWiese » 10 May 2014, 23:10

Gold could become of value if a group of players forms a "bank" of sorts, that takes part in trade, nation building, financing etc. They could run it out of the commoner town. Just an Idea, tiss all.


Grimfest
 
Posts: 122
Joined: 26 Apr 2014, 21:45

Re: 100% Player driven economy

Post by Grimfest » 23 May 2014, 19:23

Will someone please link me info on the "starter city" and what will be sold there for real money? or any info on their business model?

Thank you,
-Grimfest


Ragtimer
 
Posts: 19
Joined: 23 Sep 2014, 15:30

Re: 100% Player driven economy

Post by Ragtimer » 23 Sep 2014, 16:20

So here are my thoughts on this:

Let us recall why gold was used as currency in history at all? At the beginning - people traded goods until some goods became way too expensive to be paid by raw/simple goods (like a crossbow paid by 10 iron bars). This way it was cumbersome to travel with iron bars to purchase a crossbow so people started to take other expensive goods that are lighter and easy to transport to trade. This way gems and rare metals became common => Gold became common.
- As bobik stated in a stream the ammount of metal/gold will be limited on the world and this way it never becomes dispensable.
I imagine it to be like this:
First players start with nothing and produce some goods until they have spares or overproduction. Then they wander or meet merchants and offer it for trade for other goods they need. After gold is discovered and mined (bobik stated that gold can be smelt and coins could be made) it can become a wealth-substitute.
The currency for the vanity-items and such does not need to be gold. Let it be Dollars or Stars or crystals or what ever. It is real money anyways so why not let it be like this and not mess with the ingame economy. As I understood the stream, people will be able to buy some vanity stuff, logos, dyes but since you devs want to make money with it it is out of question that this shall not be paid with gold earned in game. - I not even understand why we need an npc for this. Let it be a special building or an interface-shop that shall not intersect with the game economy in any ways.
About buying tools: well the start will be hard but soon basic tools shall become cheap since many players will make them.

The idea about merchants - merchandising / trading:
The very Idea about traveling and trading is so exciting but it needs a prerequisite: no world-market-auction-house << this just destroys the very idea to travel and sell stuff because everyone knows the prices and the cheapest price is the market-price
(i think I start an extra thread for this)
UPDDATE: here it goes:
http://lifeisfeudal.com/forum/how-life-of-a-feudal-merchant-should-be-t2504/
Last edited by Ragtimer on 23 Sep 2014, 22:52, edited 1 time in total.


MrSeagull
 
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Joined: 23 Sep 2014, 19:14

Re: 100% Player driven economy

Post by MrSeagull » 23 Sep 2014, 21:26

The currency doesn't have to be gold, it can be a variety of commodities. Gold and silver were used mostly because of their scarcity, their ability to resist corrosion, and the aesthetic value, though it wasn't some decision from authority that brought currency into being - it was necessity.
The purpose of currency is to allow the division of labor, and money is just a way to transfer one's labor unto a more fungible form that can be exchanged with people who would not otherwise value the products of one's labor. This was a necessity as a greater diversity in labor grew, and individuals found greater efficiency in specialization.

Problem is, with what I've seen of this virtual world, there are a limited amount of options when it comes to products of labor. A small group of people in a tiny village could master all trades to where no currency would be needed. The only thing making trade a necessity is the manner in which the resources are spread out away from each other - but then it's just a matter of trading one sought resource for another. This could be cause the formation of currency when members of towns trade fully crafted good instead of just raw resources.
Maybe if there were ways to specialize further - such as a skill farming a specific type crop, making a specific type of clothing, etc. - Or, if gaining ranks in one skill didn't require ranks in a host of other skills. As an example - A blacksmith that doesn't need high ranks in mining and smelting would have reason to trade with a dedicated miner, and a dedicated smelter. Three jobs diversified and specialized in such a manner would require a means to trade value outside of only the products of their labor. The blacksmith needs the iron bars to work, but a baker has no use for them. Currency would evolve out of necessity.

I'd love to see the game have a completely player-driven economy. In regards to monetization of the game, I understand there will be some sort of fee to claim land over a certain size, but otherwise maybe they could offer in-game "blessings" for real world currency, such as EXP boost or the like.

I think the greatest folly of economists is the belief that any economy can be truly controlled... at least in real life :D

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