Make a good game. We'll pay for it! (Ditch the free-to-play)

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Wes
 
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Make a good game. We'll pay for it! (Ditch the free-to-play)

Post by Wes » 22 Oct 2014, 01:33

Let's look at this from two different perspectives.

The standard $15 subscription model paired with a great competitive game yields the best results long term for both the company and the game's life. As long as you provide a great game with plenty for people to do we'll be around to pay our monthly fees. If someone isn't willing to pay fifty cents a day to play the game you've spent years developing, you don't want them anyway.

Let's look at some features. Terraforming, incredibly complex crafting, enormous seemless world, and full loot pvp are just a few. With all of the great features you've implemented this game will thrive for many years to come. People will play for the rush of hearing someone knock an arrow beyond the bushes, or discovering that new source of gold in their mine. People will always be exploring, building, and altering the world.

That means an average of $120 per year per player you have. I believe this game will open up a new genre that's been missing for some time.

Now, the free-to-play model. Most modern MMORPG have gravitated towards this model because companies have realized people will pay absurd amounts of money for even the smallest advantages in these games. This works great in most games, but not the hardcore competitive games. It's easy to say you'll only sell cosmetics and convenience items, but can that really sustain your company and your wallets? Eventually people will demand more. Can you guarantee you'll average $15 per player every month just by selling fancy clothes and some house decorations? Sure, there's a large number of things you can sell that shouldn't hurt the game or make it pay to win, but it only goes so far. Eventually, people will have everything and you won't have any income aside from the stray few people who find your game years after release.

Wouldn't you rather guarantee the income of $120 per player per year and have no chance of destroying your integrity by being tempted to give in to the huge market which wants pay to win? It wouldn't take long and you would realize people will pay for 50% faster craft times, or double resource extraction, or faster skill gain. These things seem pretty minor but they would cost you players and eventually lead to even more transactions, gravitating towards pay-to-win. How do you keep that from happening and guarantee your income?

In conclusion, I vote for a buy the game and subscription model plan. I would gladly pay $30-$50 for the game and get the first month free with the purchase. And I would gladly stay subscribed for $15 a month for as long as there was a population to pvp and play with.

It's difficult to word these things exactly like I want, but this should explain the just of it.

Subscription = guaranteed income while keeping integrity forever for only ($0.50) a day.
Free-to-play = small burst of money at beginning of the game but risks integrity long term; also has no guaranteed long-term income without new things on the cash shop (eventually people will want more than cool colored equipment)


Bledathehun
 
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Re: Make a good game. We'll pay for it! (Ditch the free-to-p

Post by Bledathehun » 22 Oct 2014, 03:43

What are you talking about, if you want to pay to win buy 5 characters and play with 5 different computers. Also means you support the game more :).

Making it a one off payment allows younger people to join the game who have other things to do in life, also allowing for no worry about wasting time not playing a game they must pay for every day.


Siegbert
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Re: Make a good game. We'll pay for it! (Ditch the free-to-p

Post by Siegbert » 22 Oct 2014, 05:01

There is no free2play model in this game. It's basically buy2play.

I don't think subscription will work for this. Most people wouldn't want to pay it and neither would I.


Uno
 
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Re: Make a good game. We'll pay for it! (Ditch the free-to-p

Post by Uno » 22 Oct 2014, 06:45

Bledathehun wrote:What are you talking about, if you want to pay to win buy 5 characters and play with 5 different computers. Also means you support the game more :).


Or just play 1 character and buy ingame currency.


Kjaskar
 
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Re: Make a good game. We'll pay for it! (Ditch the free-to-p

Post by Kjaskar » 22 Oct 2014, 10:25

Xsyon was / is buy2play and afaik is/was pay4premium and suffers low playerbase. I never played it because it had a monthly fee to it and wasn't close to what I'd call a playable game. It has similar features to LiF.

I'd take that as an argument against monthly fees. Keep it as it is, I like the Idea of paying once for the game and once for every character, as it allows anyone to pay a price that fits their style of gameplay. I'd imagine you can have lots of fun with just one character in the finished game, if you've only got time to play _one_ character over time.

But I'd go as far as to say that if the game is actually going strong in a year or two, with the MMO being launched and the game being featurecomplete (meaning: it has everything in the game that currently is InDev), they should raise the price. If the game attracts enough people to warrant localized servers (EU, US, AUS, etc.) or similar, it will give positive results.

But thats far ways off.


Treetall
 
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Re: Make a good game. We'll pay for it! (Ditch the free-to-p

Post by Treetall » 22 Oct 2014, 10:45

I vote for a monthly sub fee. I would much rather pay for a good game to play so the devs could keep working on it. There are thousands of free games out there but there are zero good full loot mmo's. Let the people that want free games go play free games and give us the one good full loot pvp game. We WILL pay for it.


Kaltivel
 
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Re: Make a good game. We'll pay for it! (Ditch the free-to-p

Post by Kaltivel » 22 Oct 2014, 12:44

Sub Fee is an outdated and dying model. I would not pay $15 a month for any game, no matter how good it is, because that's ridiculous. Say what you want about server costs and whatnot, they'll make all the money they need by having the game (and extra characters) be Buy To Play. Please don't say 'We'll pay for it!' in the title because your opinion isn't shared by all of the players. I am just as willing to support the devs for their hard work but Sub Fee is a deal breaker.


Shu
 
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Re: Make a good game. We'll pay for it! (Ditch the free-to-p

Post by Shu » 22 Oct 2014, 16:15

To me, free2play always has the taste of a failed game with little to no ongoing development or support, where the makers try to lure at least some folks in to at least cut their losses that way. I usually don't even bother trying a game if it's f2p, because it outright admits that it's not worth my time (and money). And because it more than likely will bother me with nerve wrecking reminders that I pretty please should buy this and that and whatnot and .. GTFO MY SCREEN FFS!

Sub based makes me expect, that the devs can state with full confidence, that their game is round and near perfect, rock solid enough to lay down some good money. And it's also the promise to keep going at full power. But don't you dare not meeting these expectations.

LiF is going an interesting middle way, which I feel could pan out really really well.


Siegbert
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Re: Make a good game. We'll pay for it! (Ditch the free-to-p

Post by Siegbert » 22 Oct 2014, 16:38

Shu wrote:Sub based makes me expect, that the devs can state with full confidence, that their game is round and near perfect, rock solid enough to lay down some good money. And it's also the promise to keep going at full power. But don't you dare not meeting these expectations.


Yeah? To me it feels like a cashgrab. I can hardly imagine a game that worth paying on a monthly basis where the best game I ever played in my life didn't cost me much more than 20-30 Euros once.

And in defense of free2play:
PlanetSide2


Tonto
 
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Re: Make a good game. We'll pay for it! (Ditch the free-to-p

Post by Tonto » 22 Oct 2014, 22:21

Woah man, this game isn't in its last death throws. It just made a bunch of money from steam release.

Breathe man. Give the development team time to properly invest what they already have.


Jaxomadar
 
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Re: Make a good game. We'll pay for it! (Ditch the free-to-p

Post by Jaxomadar » 23 Oct 2014, 19:07

I think a lot of players currently are confused on the way the game is setup.

You paid your money to help get the game to a finish product. At this time its "ALPHA". This is not a finished game it need constructive bug finds and suggestions on what does or doesn't work.

Pay to Play still exist for some games, most started doing Free to Play after you buy the game, and some are straight Free to Play, but you pay for added stuff.

I wouldn't mind if this went monthly sub for the MMO version, and buy once for the YourOwn. However the cost per month will be the deciding factor on if I'd play the MMO.

I paid to try out the game and try to find bugs and make suggestions. I'm willing to give the devs time as they work towards the end product. Most games people love to say how polished it was when released were in Development for 5-10 years before they even let Beta out. Today most do Alpha and get some capital and testers by releasing way too early for most players. It use to be Beta Testers by invite only for games. Just something to ponder.


Mcasflurry
 
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Re: Make a good game. We'll pay for it! (Ditch the free-to-p

Post by Mcasflurry » 25 Oct 2014, 13:53

Free2Play is fine, but Pay2Win istn, if this is becoming a pay2win where players that pay have any kind of advantage a lot of players will be gone. A p2w format will not work in a game where everything is about hard work and about the work you put into it, a system that would give advantages would ruin this game. Id much rather pay monthly to play then to have a f2p game where its actually p2w. In my experience with f2p games there are enough people to carry the asses of players that use the free part of the game.


Shu
 
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Re: Make a good game. We'll pay for it! (Ditch the free-to-p

Post by Shu » 26 Oct 2014, 12:42

There is a question right there, I ask myself a lot about f2p: If a game does not offer ANY progress oriented payed services, what are players incentives to buy something?

Apart from the occasional "I'll by this or that with the sole purpose of supporting the game, although I have minor interest in my purchase itself.", which I deem rarer than I wish for, there pretty much only are non-mechanics relevant services like vanity items and such. How big and how generous is the fraction of players, that cares enough for just looks to make f2p par with a subscription or even better in a real pure non-p2w case?
If I was a developer, I'd NEVER be okay with such a volatile source of income. Especially because it probably would have to range in the realm of micro payments to be viable at all.

Do we have some people here with actual insight into a f2p game behind the curtains enough to make some rough statements about that? (I am aware that this is no longer relevant to LiF. It's a matter of my personal interest. I hope that is okay.)


KingOfHell
 
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Re: Make a good game. We'll pay for it! (Ditch the free-to-p

Post by KingOfHell » 27 Oct 2014, 12:35

i personally will not play if its monthly sub, thats just way too much, no games are worth that much money, on the other hand EVEN if they make items buyable, they can do it with minimal P2W, lets say u can buy ANY item ingame but only Q0 or Q1. i'll not take those items even for free, cause in this game Q of item is everything, but ppl will buy them, good for starting out and stuff like that, i mean even if they make buyable items they can EASILY balance it so that its just a little boost and absolutely nothing gamebreaking. this was just 1 of the ways of doing it, i'm sure they'll find even more and maybe even better. so no, game should be as it is, buy to play and then ingame items which u can buy, maybe only cosmetics maybe some 0-1 Q items, maybe even all the items that exist in game (0-1Q ofc) i'll support any of those, i dont see anyone having advantage over me by having Q 0-1 items, they can also add label to it "Made In China".


Siegbert
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Re: Make a good game. We'll pay for it! (Ditch the free-to-p

Post by Siegbert » 27 Oct 2014, 13:10

Shu wrote:There is a question right there, I ask myself a lot about f2p: If a game does not offer ANY progress oriented payed services, what are players incentives to buy something?

Apart from the occasional "I'll by this or that with the sole purpose of supporting the game, although I have minor interest in my purchase itself.", which I deem rarer than I wish for, there pretty much only are non-mechanics relevant services like vanity items and such. How big and how generous is the fraction of players, that cares enough for just looks to make f2p par with a subscription or even better in a real pure non-p2w case?
If I was a developer, I'd NEVER be okay with such a volatile source of income. Especially because it probably would have to range in the realm of micro payments to be viable at all.

Do we have some people here with actual insight into a f2p game behind the curtains enough to make some rough statements about that? (I am aware that this is no longer relevant to LiF. It's a matter of my personal interest. I hope that is okay.)


Usually it's cosmetics. In PlanetSide 2 there's a whole bunch of different camo uniforms, helmet, decals and the like. I think in a medieval oriented game there's even more room for such things:

different armor, banners, horsies, castles, houses... I know I would pay for my own individual style.

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Somerlot
 
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Re: Make a good game. We'll pay for it! (Ditch the free-to-p

Post by Somerlot » 27 Oct 2014, 16:08

From the beginning Path of Exile has also been a vanity purchases only and seems to be doing pretty well.
Image


PavloBeikon
 
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Re: Make a good game. We'll pay for it! (Ditch the free-to-p

Post by PavloBeikon » 28 Oct 2014, 07:28

Siegbert wrote:And in defense of free2play:
PlanetSide2


You're kidding right? I'll buy extra character slots and bank tabs, but you can buy weapons and get a sub for boosted cert points. It's pay to win and it sucks.


Shu
 
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Re: Make a good game. We'll pay for it! (Ditch the free-to-p

Post by Shu » 28 Oct 2014, 15:22

It just occurred to me: Those, that voice loudest about p2w being so bad and unfair, probably also make up the majority of those who by far prefer f2p over a sub.
Therefore it seems, that most are simply asking (some even demand) basically a completely free game. But with AAA quality please. And the industry even made us believe that this is possible. How screwed up is that!?

I'm an old fashioned man. I prefer to straight up pay honest money for goods and services. That is the only way two parties can do proper and honest business with each other.
Anything else is just consumers weaseling out of payment, and businesses trying to slip in payments in a way that makes you not feel like you really payed much. A constant dance around a pile of coins.

I'd even be distracted from enjoying a game by constantly having to decide if some payed service would be worth it for me. I'd much rather just pay you up front, and you give me the full product with all options enabled. I just don't like to be lured around and peskered with "please buy X" while trying to play some good game. I just don't see how that could enhance the fun. Maybe I'm too old for gaming these days.


Teras
 
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Re: Make a good game. We'll pay for it! (Ditch the free-to-p

Post by Teras » 11 Jul 2015, 18:08

Free to Play is no bad thing that makes all bad when its free its ok or not?
I mean the Workers on that game have Decied it
And F2P will be in Future a better way than too Pay for a Game
Sure the workers on that game cant live without money :)
But there are other ways too get it
F2P means not that you can play with all Features it means only that you can play ingame For Free :)


Siegbert
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Re: Make a good game. We'll pay for it! (Ditch the free-to-p

Post by Siegbert » 20 Aug 2015, 16:59

PavloBeikon wrote:
Siegbert wrote:And in defense of free2play:
PlanetSide2


You're kidding right? I'll buy extra character slots and bank tabs, but you can buy weapons and get a sub for boosted cert points. It's pay to win and it sucks.


Idk, I used to play it casually and didn't know what to do with my cert points anyway... I log in, kill a bunch of dudes, get killed a bunch of times. I always had a fun time.

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SirWinston
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Re: Make a good game. We'll pay for it! (Ditch the free-to-p

Post by SirWinston » 23 Aug 2015, 16:20

I think a lot of people will be ready to pay for additional character slots once they have maxed out their first character. Sure you can forget skillpoints and spend them somewhere else but what if you don't want to lose your character ? What if you want to play a bandit but still log on your peaceful farmer from time to time ?

Buy once, play forever, and pay more for additional character slots is the most legit deal in my opinion. If the game is good, people will keep buying it for themselves and their friends no matter what.

I'm not against a cash shop selling vanity items like special clothes, unique banners for your guild, etc. Because that's just the way online games roll these days. But it has to remain strictly cosmetic (no faster Grind, or buy high quality components for real money) and not over the top. (no devil horns, angel wings, or bunny ears but I'm not too worried about that, I know Bobik played Face of Mankind so he won't let it happen here. :ROFL: )
Sure you can call this a "cash grab" but that's the state of the industry right now. The money is there, people are ready to spend it so why wouldn't they take it ? This is not a Non-Profit organization.
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