Life is Feudal Official Forum

[Stormsblade]

High quality and complex food should be useful beyond just skilling up quicker. It would be a shame to see its value diminished for developed characters.

Why not also tie it to combat in some way - A higher stamina or health regen rate would provide benefit to those who keep their army well fed.

[Willbonney]

Food Multiplier does effect Hard and Soft Hitpoint regen.

Not sure on Stam.

[Tymefor]

The multiplier affects everything to do with stats aswell. They call it "regeneration" (very confusing). so for example stamina regen rate is a product willpower. higher multiplier therefore affect the rate at which it will regen. same with Constitution and health regen. Your con stat provides the base regen and the multiplier speeds that up.

Need to work at clarifying this on the wiki. and figuring out the formula.

[Willbonney]

Once animals get put back on my server, will do tests of 50 Soft and 50 Hard regen rates at 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 multiplier rates with times. Will be a fun test in my opinion.

[Tymefor]

Yeah I was going to do a set like that.

Also want to look into wether hunger affects the rate aswell. As I swear that the rate is faster at 100 hunger and slows as your hunger drops.

Also want to test what the actual rate increase is from sitting as opposed to just standing there doing nothing. that will be a very boring test though lol.

The wiki suggests 40 seconds for 1 hard stamina. So I'd assume that's with 100 hunger and 1x skill multiplier while standing not sitting.

I haven't really done much weapon work. But I wonder if it also affects strength and agility multipliers for that.

[Tymefor]

Food Multiplier does effect Hard and Soft Hitpoint regen.

Not sure on Stam.

definitely on stam. Very useful for if you are in a marathon granite shaping session. if I keep my multiplier at >3 while shaping I can do about 400 granite before need into rest and restore my 185 stam. If I let that mulitpier drop by eating lower complexity I only mange to do about 200 granite before needing to rest.

And thats using the granite dupe and a bot for the actual work, so its very consistent amount of work per minute.

[Willbonney]

Hmm, this would be another "double-edged sword" deal going on then.

If natural (non-resting) Hard Stamina rate of increase is higher with higher quality food, that would mean your hunger is going down at a much higher rate. (1 Hunger for 1 Hard Stamina still applies no matter Food Quality.)

This is another broken part of the food tech then. Eating higher tech food raises your ability to raise stats/skills, but also would Increase the rate of which you would have to eat again, is a lot less filling (100q tech 5 food [master] is only 50 filling where as 100q tech 2 food [basic cooked] is 100 filling), and requires a lot more advanced resources for less gain... Most Tech 2 food does only produce 1 edible meal at a time, but some Tech 2 (basic cooked) does produce 2 meals, as does tech 3 through tech 5, only 2 meals.

This at the moment seems way counterproductive, and is something that ya'll might want to look into. I would suggest again like I did a couple weeks ago, at minimum, increasing the number of meals produced at tech 3-5 to balance things a bit. Like 3 meals for 3, 4 meals for tech 4, 5 meals for tech 5 (matching the number of different types of ingredients with the number of meals produced).

[Tymefor]

yeah I get where your going with that. It is a bit broken, but probably only needs the fill amount raised on high complexity or lowered on lower complexity.

its one of those preference things I think. looking at it from a gameplay perspective the benefit of the multiplier could be made to be HUGE. It arguably already is. So if you are trying to play while using high multipliers for skill gain or increased regen. Because you are getting a large advantage over someone who isn't. It should be a larger amount of effort to achieve.

So in that example, you are balancing the difficulty in maintaining the higher multiplier against its benefit to gameplay. Not so much against other foods.

[Willbonney]

You have to eat more because it's less filling.
You have to eat more due to increased rate of Hunger loss due to higher rate of Hard Stamina gain.

It's something I noticed a couple weeks ago and was annoyed with, and am only now fully understanding. The fact that higher quality food with the Higher Food Multiplier makes you end up burning through food at a pretty insane rate.

With 100q Tech 1, in 8 hours play I would burn through 10-15 meals during normal play (non-terraforming).

With 100q Tech 5, in 8 hours of normal play (non-terraforming) I was burning through close to 40 meals.

At least now I guess I don't have to only rely on fishing to get good food, eh. This still seems rather unbalanced.

[Tymefor]

im impressed you managed to make 100quality 5 ingredient food. let alone 40 meals of it. Seems to me that would have taken more than the 8 hours of normal gameplay to achieve in the first place.

what I was trying to get at was that there are 2 ways to balance this problem. either up the rate of hunger replenishment from a foods average complexity. or increase the benefit to gameplay from constantly eating high complexity foods.

You are only looking at it from the perspective of your hunger bar.

try thinking about it this way.

maintaining a 1 food multiplier should be trivial as this is "base line" of effort and benefits. (pick an apple and eat it)

maintaining a 2 multiplier should therefore be twice as hard. and good gameplay balance should leave the player feeling we are getting twice the benefit from that multiplier.

maintaining a 5 multiplier should be 5 times the effort and then feel 5 times the benefit.

Now it doesn't have to be such a straight linear progression like that. But I hope you get where I'm going with that idea. So from a feedback perspective, I would say the benefit to effort of the high multipliers isn't really there. So I would suggest the devs choose to either lower the effort (give more hunger/items) or raise the benefit.

raising the benefits would be a big question mark about what to do. I feel it would have to be a new effect not just tweaking what it already does. My 2 cents would be quality multiplier also effecting "cast time" of abilities, something like a 25% possible cast time reduction.

really depends on wether bobik looks at this as a problem. Introducing multiple benefits to a mechanic can bring more balancing headaches than it solves. But hes made that choice with a lot of their mechanics so it seems to be something they like.

[Willbonney]

im impressed you managed to make 100quality 5 ingredient food. let alone 40 meals of it. Seems to me that would have taken more than the 8 hours of normal gameplay to achieve in the first place.

Isn't that rough to be honest. One good pea harvest and one good onion harvest of 95ish quality, and 2-3 hours fishing on water with good quality sand to get 75+ quality fish. 20 salmon, codfish, and herring later and you have 40 fish stew.

Edited to add: Oh, and a well built kitchen.

[Tymefor]

Also this talk of Tech 1 food bothers me a bit. Resultant complexity of a food isn't ONLY based on the number of ingredients. just because it has more ingredients doesn't mean that it is a better complexity than a lower ingredient food.

In your example you are stating 100q foods so I guess it moot at that level. but the quality effects resultant complexity not just ingredient amount. So if you are just throwing around the 100q statement and the food is actually 80q make sure that you are doing the resultant complexity calculation before testing a particular food.

Max Complexity = Number of ingredients * 20
Result Complexity = (Quality / 100) * Max Complexity

I'm assuming Result Complexity is what you are trying to say by Tech1 and soforth????

ps FoodMult = Last5MealsResultComplexity × Hunger × 0.0001

[Willbonney]

Also this talk of Tech 1 food bothers me a bit. Resultant complexity of a food isn't ONLY based on the number of ingredients. just because it has more ingredients doesn't mean that it is a better complexity than a lower ingredient food.

In your example you are stating 100q foods so I guess it moot at that level. but the quality effects resultant complexity not just ingredient amount. So if you are just throwing around the 100q statement and the food is actually 80q make sure that you are doing the resultant complexity calculation before testing a particular food.

Max Complexity = Number of ingredients * 20
Result Complexity = (Quality / 100) * Max Complexity

I'm assuming Result Complexity is what you are trying to say by Tech1 and soforth????

ps FoodMult = Last5MealsResultComplexity × Hunger × 0.0001

Nah, I refer to Tech 1 now as being the "gathered" edibles.

Tech 2 being the "Basic" Recipes (1-2 ingredient cooked)
Tech 3 for Advanced. (3 ingredient)
Tech 4 for Expert. (4 Ingredient)
Tech 5 for Master. (5 Ingredient)

[Willbonney]

also, Misspoke in earlier post. Was Tech 2 food I was eating, the basic cooked stuff, not gathered.

[Willbonney]

Subsequently as well, is also the max food quality level you're able to apply to yourself for eating that "Tech" level of food over 5 meals at the appropriate time at 100Q. The appropriate time being when it exactly fills you to 100 Hunger with that food type at 100q.

[Tymefor]

also, Misspoke in earlier post. Was Tech 2 food I was eating, the basic cooked stuff, not gathered.

gathered or cooked doesn't matter in complexity calculation. cooking just lets you slide in more quality from pot, cooking place and cooking skill.

so a q100 gathered apple is complexity 20. A "basic" 2 ingredient recipe must be of a quality >50 to beat that and a "basic" 1 ingredient must be 100 quality to match it but cannot beat it.

basic, advanced, expert and master are just names assigned to recipes that are unlocked at cooking level 0, 30, 60 and 90.

[Willbonney]

also, Misspoke in earlier post. Was Tech 2 food I was eating, the basic cooked stuff, not gathered.

gathered or cooked doesn't matter in complexity calculation. cooking just lets you slide in more quality from pot, cooking place and cooking skill.

so a q100 gathered apple is complexity 20. A "basic" 2 ingredient recipe must be of a quality >50 to beat that and a "basic" 1 ingredient must be 100 quality to match it but cannot beat it.

basic, advanced, expert and master are just names assigned to recipes that are unlocked at cooking level 0, 30, 60 and 90.

Eh, is just a way I've simplified it in my mind bud. I'll have to do a bit of testing/playing with it even more now though. All the recipes which use Boiled Eggs as in ingredient should now be more effective than their counterparts that don't. As in Mutton Pie, Waterzooi for most complexity, then Beef Cabbage Hash, King's Beef Stew, Beef Stew (uses 2 boiled eggs, hmm, will be interesting), Ghoulash (4xboiled eggs).

I'm interested in seeing this because Boiled Eggs should be a "more complex" ingredient as it must be cooked to have, and thus should push the finished product further than the rest complexity wise.

[Tymefor]

also, Misspoke in earlier post. Was Tech 2 food I was eating, the basic cooked stuff, not gathered.

gathered or cooked doesn't matter in complexity calculation. cooking just lets you slide in more quality from pot, cooking place and cooking skill.

so a q100 gathered apple is complexity 20. A "basic" 2 ingredient recipe must be of a quality >50 to beat that and a "basic" 1 ingredient must be 100 quality to match it but cannot beat it.

basic, advanced, expert and master are just names assigned to recipes that are unlocked at cooking level 0, 30, 60 and 90.

Eh, is just a way I've simplified it in my mind bud. I'll have to do a bit of testing/playing with it even more now though. All the recipes which use Boiled Eggs as in ingredient should now be more effective than their counterparts that don't. As in Mutton Pie, Waterzooi for most complexity, then Beef Cabbage Hash, King's Beef Stew, Beef Stew (uses 2 boiled eggs, hmm, will be interesting), Ghoulash (4xboiled eggs).

I'm interested in seeing this because Boiled Eggs should be a "more complex" ingredient as it must be cooked to have, and thus should push the finished product further than the rest complexity wise.

Yeah I agree with that. same with recipes that require cheese and wine. Max complexity is actually a DB value for each recipe so it shouldn't be much to adjust the max value for those recipes. That would then roll the resultant complexity of those foods.

although would make explaining food complexity even harder lol.

[Stormsblade]

Cool, learned something new!'

Could tie it into something combat related beyond soft HP regen, to make it even more valuable for a fighting force to be well fed.

[Stormsblade]

Aye, the more I think about it, the more I realize that Hard HP regen isn't that much of a meaningful combat bonus (and certainly not hard stam regen.)

If they increased soft HP regen to something like 1 per minute, and multiplied that by the food multiplier, that would be a nice feature addition I think.

[Tymefor]

Aye, the more I think about it, the more I realize that Hard HP regen isn't that much of a meaningful combat bonus (and certainly not hard stam regen.)

If they increased soft HP regen to something like 1 per minute, and multiplied that by the food multiplier, that would be a nice feature addition I think.

first aid skill is where that will feature.

[Stormsblade]

First aid just converts hard HP damage to soft HP.

I don't understand your point.

[Tymefor]

well soft hp regening should be more of a first aid thing. although atm they seem to be going with it being able to shift Hhp loss to SHP loss. which doesn't really make sense to me. makes more sense to me that healing is for Hhp and first aid is for Shp.

anyway with first aid set to work like it does being able to regen Shp to fast would really make banaging to OP.

[Stormsblade]

I don't see how it would make bandaging too OP, stopping to bandage someone in the battlefield is a difficult process as it requires both parties to not move while fully erect and vulnerable.

Furthermore, even if it was 1 soft HP per minute, multiplied by the multiplier, the FASTEST your SHP regen could get would be one point per 12 seconds.

Assuming an enemy is hitting you for 50 damage, it would take a full 10 minutes to mitigate the damage of one swing at the maximum possible healing rate.

In fact, unless you can recover Soft HP in some way, the moment that you convert your hard HP damage into soft HP you are basically being taken out of the battle entirely (as you will drop very, very, quickly.)


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That said, the system we have right now is very realistic, which is cool. It just doesn't leave a lot of room for "healing", which is a shame because we have two skills dedicated to healing!

I am not attached to the idea that having a high food multiplier be attached to increased soft HP regen, but it would be nice to see being particularly well-fed having some sort of positive effect on combat performance.