Life is Feudal Official Forum

[Stormsblade]

It has been said that territorial conflict is a key feature for the upcoming MMO. "Battles" between Kingdoms to fight over land that they both claim is a core concept that will drive Realm v. Realm action.

However, we have also been told that monuments are the method for improving the size of territorial holdings for a realm.

post42506/#p42506

The numbers show that clans will be able to control only 85 cells from their monument in any direction, at the maximum possible size of their realm (the Tier 4 "Glorious Monument.")

That means that walking from the very north tip of a realm, to the very south tip of a realm, is only 170 cells. A cell is 2x2 meters, which would figure that the largest possible realm is less than .4 kilometers across, a distance that someone jogs in two minutes time, or sprints in one.

The world is planned to be 21x21km. That is 441,000,000 square meters (or 110,250,000 cells.) Even if a full half of this was water, there would still be over 55 million cells of land.

You don't need to see the sheer size of the numbers to see why this might be a problem - Try to imagine how many people are going to opt to build realms within a few hundred meters of one another - Not many.

There is an immediate problem that there will likely almost never be a realm that touches another realms territory unless people consciously choose to build right next to one another. They *might* happen every now and again, but not enough to build gameplay around.

Certainly, it would be unfortunate to build a really nice city out in the mountains, become a powerful realm, and have no reason to battle for territory because nobody else lives within a couple hundred meters!

Without frequent abutting borders there won't be battles over territorial control, and as far as I know the territorial control system has never been explained to include any method of border expansion beyond upgrading your monument.

Is there some other mechanic for expanding a realms territory beyond upgrading a cities monument? What plans do the devs have to create, and provide incentive for, conflict? Is there some other reason to declare battles beyond territory conflict and bragging rights?

[Hoshiqua]

I'm not sure, but I think you'll be able to build multiple cities, so multiple monuments. Plus, with the vassalizing mechanic, you'll be able to subjuguate other countries, settlement included, expanding your territory. I don't think there will be any vassal number limit, so you'll be able to increase the size of your kingdom as much as you want.

[Stormsblade]

One city per guild.
Infinite vassals, to be sure, each can have a singular city - But this is not your territory, just allied territory.

I am interested in learning more about forcing other territories to provide tribute though. IIRC it was only speculative.

[Hoshiqua]

Vassal =/= allies. Vassals will be under your command, and effectively part of the kingdom you control.

[Azzerhoden]

Great question Storm. I really like that guilds are going to have to travel across the land and establish a base in order to successfully wage war, but if only one monument, does a guild have to destroy it to build another? That seems - laborious.

Also wondering how long it will take to build a monument, and what that would require. I saw some sort of block of material once in the GM item listing that I thought might be it, but cannot find it now.

[Stormsblade]

@Hoshiqua
Of course that is how it works in real life.
Good luck ordering people against their will in an online video game.

Bobik has described the realm vassalage system as being like alliances in other MMOs, with the lead guild acting as the holder of the realm.

If there is going to be a tribute system that is a fundamental part of the endgame it will likely need to be a game mechanic.

[Stormsblade]

Great question Storm. I really like that guilds are going to have to travel across the land and establish a base in order to successfully wage war, but if only one monument, does a guild have to destroy it to build another? That seems - laborious.

Also wondering how long it will take to build a monument, and what that would require. I saw some sort of block of material once in the GM item listing that I thought might be it, but cannot find it now.

Are you maybe referring to Vostaskus Steel?
As far as I know, monuments have been described as "expensive."

I also believe that losing your monument actually causes you to lose status as a Kingdom and become simply an order. You lose all land claims.

The territory system does seem like it is cumbersome and static, which I think does no justice to the freeform and sandbox nature of LiF.

I think it would be an excellent idea to allow Kingdoms to extend their influence and territory with lesser monuments they could construct in smaller forward forts.

[Tymefor]

I know the personal claim shape has been changed to be more of a rectangle. and that's not on the wiki yet. also something is totally worng with town claims on the wiki

Town Claim[edit]

Approx. 3,850 cells total area. Circular areas within a diameter of 70 cells from a Tier 1 guild monument

with a diameter of 70 from the monument that's a radius of 45 giving and area of that circle of 6358.5 cells almost double what they are stating the total area actually is......

so its more likely to be an ellipse (a = pi * r1 * r2) with the long radius at 45 and short radius at 27 cells which gives the stated area of 3850 cells.

the realm upgrades are then circles radius 45,60,85 around that central point for a max total claimed land of 22.7k of cells

now really looking at the MMO map half the map is water maybe a bit less, but then there are also a hell of a lot of mountains that I find it very unlikely for people to want to build tier 4 monuments on. In fact I feel that the Choice tier 4 land will be less than 25% of the total land really.

we also don't have a feel for how hard travelling will actually be. as you said is really fast to travel atm. so it will be very fast to get to a realm even 15 km away I think.

territorial battles will most likely be more about particular resources points that don't really have to be within a realm. just being accessed and guarded by them. Also the currency generation being locked to 1kmx1km blocks means that you will want to war with people on 1km cells to knockout their tradepost and stop it cutting into your available pool of currency.

[Stormsblade]

I know the personal claim shape has been changed to be more of a rectangle. and that's not on the wiki yet. also something is totally worng with town claims on the wiki

Town Claim[edit]

Approx. 3,850 cells total area. Circular areas within a diameter of 70 cells from a Tier 1 guild monument

with a diameter of 70 from the monument that's a radius of 45 giving and area of that circle of 6358.5 cells almost double what they are stating the total area actually is......

Hehe, silly little math mistake Tymefor, oops!

Diameter of 70 = Radius of 35.
(a = pi * 35 * 35) = 3848

The numbers are correct as calculated.

Territorial battles will most likely be more about particular resources points that don't really have to be within a realm. just being accessed and guarded by them.

"Battles" are instanced events that are tied to a game mechanic that degrades your opponents territorial control.

If they have anything to do with resource points outside of a realms territory, that is entirely new information the devs have not stated. So either pure conjecture on your part, or something I am not aware of and would like you to link for reference.

Also the currency generation being locked to 1kmx1km blocks means that you will want to war with people on 1km cells to knockout their tradepost and stop it cutting into your available pool of currency.

Asset destruction is also tied to a different system entirely. Battles won't have any assets, they are clean fields with only natural terrain.

[Tymefor]

not sure I agree with the changes you made to the wiki there storm.

doesn't make sense now.

before it was in meters not cells and that made sense.

Previous version:-
town claim
Approx. 3,850 [[cell]]s total area. Circular areas within a radius of 70 meters from a Tier 1 [[guild]] [[monument]]

so that's 15386m² a cell is 4m² (2m x2m) so you get 3846 cells as stated

in the talk you are using 2m² so I think that's where you are getting confused???

in regards to the battles I was talking more about open world conflict over a point which would lead to a town deciding to enter into the WoO monument battles to "stop" them as it were. destroying someones town is sure going to put a dent in them using "your" unclaimed open world mine.

I thought I was commenting more on reasons for conflict really, not the actual mechanics of how we do it. my responses were more about how you suggest that a realm that's separated in distance wouldn't want to battle unless another realm was within a few hundred meters.

[Falcion]

It would be great if realm members could make something like a personal claim that the king could give as land to his lords.
This would make possibility to make villages and even colonies outside of realm (maybe with limitations like 100-200 cells away from boarders)

They wouldn't be fully protected by the boarders just with personal claim protection. Another group could just come and place their monument near and take it for their own.

Smaller battles could be implemented for such outposts or small staged sieges that would limit enlistments to 1/2 or 1/3 of full battles.

All of it would make a realm look like a real realm. Not one bigger city.

Someone already mentioned that it will not be easy to make someone subdue in this game. That even if someone is threaten and dies he can just get his lost skills back and move somewhere else and start a new or just log out of the game and he's out of your reach you cannot harm him. Also we think in modern ways we are used to more democratic rules not tyranny of the stronger and we instantly oppose it.
In medieval times it was hard to oppose someone who has stronger because killing was quite easy and when you were dead then that was it, in a game you know you'll come back with just slight losses.]

Considering all that vassals will be scarse in my opinion. It will b more like a large guild making sub guilds to expand their territory ( I hope it will not be abused and one large guild will not build 4-5 cities close to each other blocking a significant piece of land inside or blocking a path between two mountains).

[Stormsblade]

That would be a fun idea.

I am sure the developers have some ideas as well, as the initial system was talked about so early in the development cycle. It would be awesome to hear what the changes or additions that they have considered are.

[Orsus]

I would be interested in them posting the ideas that they decided against. We would not have the info of what might be in the game, but we would know what they did not like at least. Might be fun as well with some of the really strange ideas the decided against.

All it would take for someone to place a monument, a small one, outside a large city's borders to extend the range of a kingdom or empire. The is how a kingdom spreads, as the lords and ladies and so forth spread ther kingdoms influence.