Points about armors

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Hoshiqua
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Points about armors

Post by Hoshiqua » 26 Jul 2015, 02:11

Hey ! I just wanted to make a few points about armors currently in the game, and how they were back then (as best as we know it of course).

I have done research, yes, before you ask. All my points, you can find serious places on the internet that agree with me. Again, I may be wrong, but I know that there aren't MORE evidence that I'm wrong than that I'm right.

Now, to the points.

1 - Armor protection values.

I KNOW you can mod those for YO, but what interests me is the MMO. I would think the devs would go for the unrealistic "Each armor counters one type of damage, except for padded and leather who are weaker, but lighter".

Well, listen to me, and get that into ya brains :D
Plate armor is NOT vulnerable to piercing. It deflected arrows, spears, pikes, morningstars, and obviously swords. Except in SOME cases where the weapons / projectiles were made to penetrate heavy armors, but in that case, it would still be a bad idea, because the weapon would get stuck, and if the guy in plate is still alive, you're dead. Those skeptical : remember that plate armor is never worn alone. In the game, it is overlapping mail, and padded armor. So.. yea.

As for Scale.. it was not really used actually.. not by western nations that is. It was used quite a lot by Byzantines I think, but that's it ! I have no idea how protective it was. I guess kinda like mail.

Mail alone was VERY good against slashing damage, but weak against thin tip arrows and piercing in general, so that's already doable in game.

Leather ? Leather alone is as good as clothing. Leather by itself provides very little protection, almost nothing. I'm not even sure it really existed, probably invented my movie makers, like a lot of other things we can *sigh* see in this game.

BUT, some armors were made primarily of leather ! There were such armors called Lamelars, Cuir Bouillis..

Very interesting video made by Scholagladiatoria about them :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUPIUHpkK88

Finally, Padded Armor : Padded armors, were EXTREMELY common and it is GOOD that it is in the game. I'm fine with those ones.. they were quite vulnerable to slashing, very vulnerable to piercing, but they were good to absorb energy from blunt strikes (that's why men at arms in plate also wore such padded armors bellow their plate and chain, not only to make it more comfortable !).

So that's it about protection values.. basically the game got that all wrong except maybe for padded armors.

2 - WEIGHT. Really. That's one of the typical things invented by movies.

Armors were NOT so heavy that they would slow you down dramatically. The weight was applied on all parts of the body, evenly, and as such, you could go very fast with full plate, the only difference would be that you would consume more energy, so you could run at almost the same speed as a guy in cloth, but you would exhaust yourself quite a bit faster (not THAT faster tho).

Let me give you some facts to explain.
Let's take the heaviest armor in LIF : Plate. In LiF, unless you have crazy high strenght, full set of full plate makes you reallllllly slow compared to "lighter" kinds of armor. So slow that it affects how you fight in melee.. way too much.

But in reality, FULL set of FULL plate weighted maximum 25 kilos.. and as I said, it's not like having 25 kg in your hands.. it is spread evenly on your body, which makes it feel a lot lighter.

So the fact that people in full plate were slow pokes that couldn't move or pursue someone for shit is just.. a myth. Invented by movies just to have an excuse to make bad / unimportant characters (the armored ones) slow in combat for the heroes to kill.

So what to do in game ? Simply remove the speed debuff of having an armor, and also remove the crazy extra drain of stamina while running.. remake the system, so, in general, fighting in armor will demand better stamina management (not to the point it is the best / only way to defeat one in such equipment tho). For example, make swinging take a bit more, running also, spinning..



Listening to those points is the only way to make armors actually worth something, and for ever remove the naked fighters from the game (because that's what we want, right ?). Plus, it would be more realistic, and so far, combat wise, realism as been SERIOUSLY lacking.

You must be already writing stuff about balance, so let me give you a few example of simple game design to keep stuff realistic.

Same example : plate armor. If the devs would be so good to make it realistic, it would be essentially impregnable to slashing and piercing damage.. all swords, most axes, all arrows, most bolts (except the very heavy ones shot at close range with an arbalest.. that would definitly penetrate). And, at the same time, it wouldn't make you that much slower..

So, yea, it would be OP. Now, think for a bit. How could you fix something being OP, except by nerfing / removing it ? Well, make it hard to obtain ! If you make the process of making plate very time consuming and expensive (time consuming part is very important, as ressources can be easily accumulated, little matters the needed quantity), plate armors are going to be hugely expensive, so only the most successful players will have access to full plates.

You could also make full / royal plate only wearable by members of countries with a certain rank, so only kings / dukes / generals.. could use them (that's a lot dumber, I know, I would largely prefer the previous idea).

Same thing for other very heavy armors..

Sorry for the wall of text. If any of you have any points to add against / in my favor, feel free to do so here ! I will happily answer. I also really hope the devs read this, but I know this is a lot to ask ofc !

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Stormsblade
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Re: Points about armors

Post by Stormsblade » 26 Jul 2015, 18:36

I enjoyed reading your post. Thank you for contributing.

I do disagree on some points, however!


Hardened Leather and Lamellar armor (Either scale or hardened leather scales) were very popular throughout much of antiquity and the medieval period.

Plate was hardly impervious to piercing weapons: Awlpikes, Bec De Corbins, full pikes, guisarmes/hookbills (+similar weapons), and all sorts of Pole Axes were employed with great success against it. Spears and other light piercing weapons could easily penetrate the structural weak points of plate, and if there was enough momentum would clear straight through.

Your right though that it was largely impervious to slashing attacks and many ranged weapons out of close range, and that it hardly slowed sprint speed - But such plate armor was so good and effective it rendered shields, axes, slashing swords, and many forms of combat virtually obsolete.

It would be anachronistic to see swords/shields (except piercing ones like the Estoc) on the same battlefield as full plate, even if the full plate was expensive.

Its best to pretend that the plate armor your seeing is just the medieval periods early coat of plates, and not full, molded, plate sets.

I think I agree with you on most points related to realism, but I suggest we can't be strictly real with weapons/armor, or there will simply be a few weapons/armors that are "viable" and will define the meta.

We aren't going to have horse archers either. Some things you just need for balance.

I would rather have slightly unreal gameplay than have to play in a world where everyone that can afford to wears plate or does horse archery because they are OP.


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Re: Points about armors

Post by Hoshiqua » 26 Jul 2015, 19:30

Thank you for your answer !

Yes, I agree with you, and I think it is stated in my post.. Leather armor such as lamellars did exist ! But they were not made and didn't look like those in the game.

As for plate usefulness.. Yes, as I said also, some weapons were MADE to counter plate. But.. no, I do not agree that a spear would go through. It just isn't the case.. go on youtube and watch tests, you will see for yourself ! However, bill hooks were used with success against them, yes, simply because they are HOOKS. They were used to draw people to the ground, then you could get a lethal hit through one the armor's weakness much easier.

Now, about your point on gameplay vs realism.. TRUST ME I WILL DISCUSS IT FOR YEARS TO COME IF NEED BE :D

Jokes aside..
Yes, if you took the game right now -> added armors like suggested in this thread, plate armor would basically be the end game thing that would put you at a huge advantage against any of your foes.
But... why not ? Almost every players I've known complain because this game lacks end game content. If a player is very successful, and works a lot / is very smart to get his full set of plate, then I think he deserves an advantage on the field.

I think if we allow people to keep alive who they think is important (very rich / influent persons), it will add a whole lot more realism (middle age battle was a lot about keeping important people alive :D) and also will attract a lot of people that like the POSSIBILITY of being that kind of person.

Now, yes, it would still be kinda unfair, because you could kill hundreds of players just with the sheer advantage the plate would give ya.

But it also gives a REASON for the developers to add loads of new content combat related ! Half swording (grabbing the sword by the blade to use its pommel / guard as a mace), bill hooking (draw the guy to the ground so he is at a serious disadvantage), more stuff about stamina, aiming for gaps..

Combat is very broad and stupid, and it's surely not going to get a lot better. But with a reason to make it better.. more content -> better game !

EDIT .. I forgot about your point on having different era weapons on the same field.

Well, mind ya, we don't really have true evidence that shields were just gone when plate armor became widely available.

And I think they weren't. Why ? Because a shield is not only a portable wall you use to stop arrows. It is / can be a lot more than that ! A good example is the buckler. It's made to deflect blows, and trust me, even infantry in full plate would use that kind of shields, simply because they were not invincible.

As for large shield.. It's the same thing, really. Yes, huge round shields became kinda obsolete, but that's like saying because M4A3 became available, Ak47 suddenly wasn't used anymore.

In a weapon / armor, you must not only look at its efficiency. You must also look at its convinience to carry around (by the way, the fact that they carry 2h weapons in their back.. yea.), and of course its cost.

Large shields is not the best choice against plate, and not that useful when you have plate yourself, but they are useful against.. basically everyone else ! Remember, plate would be EXPENSIVE, and most people you'd fight in battle would not be using that, simply because they don't own one.


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Re: Points about armors

Post by Sequester » 27 Jul 2015, 11:42

You might be onto something. But how do you explain the outcome of the Battle of Agincourt, generally considered proving the superiority of longbowmen over plate wearing knights? There might have been exceptional circumstances but still it seems the plate armor was penetrable.

Also I think your idea of making plate armor simply more scarce will only help in the short to medium term. If it's just more scarce in the end everyone will have it. For example when I started playing Darkfall everyone war wearing regular armor and only the richest players would turn up in selentine armor. Then - although rare - selentine became more commom, essentially turning into the new minimum standard. A few months down the line everyone and their dog were wearing veilron armor. Even without trying I did have a bank full of highlevel armor sets.

The same is happening in Eve. Given enough time every highsec miner can buy a battleship, dreadnought, T3 cruiser, whatever is considered OP at the moment.

Essentially you will just postpone the time when full plate armor is commonplace.

I also question the wisdom of giving the (arguably) best players almost invincible items in a pvp game.


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Re: Points about armors

Post by Hoshiqua » 27 Jul 2015, 13:07

The battle of agincourt was a victory for the english for many reasons :

- Very bad tactics on the french side, and over-pride ("Slaughter this cowardly filth" was one the orders given by the french duke.. not the english, but the french crossbowmen who were falling back because the cavalry forced them to get too close to the longbowmen)

- The archers were mostly aiming for the horses, who couldn't be very protected. Kill the horse, and surely you will disable the rider with the fall, especially if he is armored

- The french weren't a huge army of knights in armor like most people believe. Most of the soldiers on both side actually, were common soldiers in padded armor, maybe with some mail, and a helmet. No plate.

As for scarcity.. LiF is a different kind of game. I don't know for Darkfall, but it sounds like it was a lootable, or something that could drop, so people would just farm it. As for Eve, I have played it for many years, and I can tell you, the economy is a lot different. Given you have enough money, you can easily buy what is required to build a big ship. Plus, those big ships are not "OP". Like all others, they can be countered by bigger / smaller kinds (when smaller, generally in greater number).

While what I am suggesting here, is an armor that cost a lot of ressources to make, and also takes a lot of time for the crafting itself ! Yes, if half of the player base decides to focus on making plate, it will become common. But remember, player base can not just worry about armor. It must also worry about construction, farming, alchemy.. and logistics also. If quantity is high enough, in order to craft a large number of plates, you'd have to have a huge number of player dedicated to hauling the good ore around (because you wouldn't want to pay for a bad plate armor..).

I was also thinking.. plate is a very "rigid" type of armor. There are no loose parts. If you don't fit, there is no way you can put it on.

Well, why not implement a "size" parameter for that kind of end game armor ? So you can't just manufacture them into a huge stock of battle ready plate armors an army can just grab. People would have to give the size they need beforehand, and while you could still supply an army with that, it would be a lot more difficult.

And all of that trouble, for just plate armor ? It's not like you become invincible with it. As I said, it gives a reason to devs to implement things such has hlaf swording, bill hooks, balistas..

As for giving the 'best' players very good armor..
Well, it's a good question indeed.
As I said, I think the fact that you CAN achieve such a point where you can obtain a very good set of armor in the game might add some spice. Plus, this game aims to create a realistic middle age world as far as I know, and plate armor was a big part of warfare (there have been many treaties on how to fight with / against plates for example). It was a huge thing.. and the fact that you go through it like butter I think is going to be.. wierd.

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Re: Points about armors

Post by Azzerhoden » 28 Jul 2015, 21:29

Hahahaha, we said Hoshiqua, regarding Agincourt. I always laugh to myself when someone brings it up as an example of superior weaponry, yet leaves out the [urlhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Patay]Battle of Patay[/url]. (Not that I am much of an expert in this area though).

I semi-recall seeing a video though regarding the use of various weapons against plate armor (and pig meat underneath). I think it was produced by the BBC? Anyhow, axes did decent damage against the plate, as the weight/momentum of the axe head was conveyed along a smaller, focused blade area. Not enough to cut flesh in half, but enough to penetrate the armor and a few inches into the flesh.

Can't find the video though.... :(

Updated: Still looking for the specific video, but this one is interesting to watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98hRtOJqOYE
Which raises the question, which part of the feudal age are we talking about with LIF? ;)
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Hoshiqua
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Re: Points about armors

Post by Hoshiqua » 28 Jul 2015, 23:20

They probably tested the plate alone.. not with chainmail, and a padded jacket underneath, which is what it is in game (and what it was in real life !). Maybe some weapons could penetrate the plate, a bit (only the heaviest axes I'd say, if we talk about slashing), but they would never go deep enough to bust chainmail and the padded jacket underneath !

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Re: Points about armors

Post by Azzerhoden » 29 Jul 2015, 14:52

I can't find it, so therefore it doesn't exist... :D

The above video provides some pretty interesting testing though, and shows the impact damage from plate being struck (even though not penetrated). This was with chain and padding as well. So while plate may prevent slicing of damage, the blunt force trauma would still cause harm, which is reflected in a loss of hit points.

It's interesting that he also talks about the distributed weight of the armor, and how today's US Marines actually carry twice the weight that a knight in full plate carried. He also demonstrated the limited vision, the difficulty in breathing, the heat, and best of all, how a knight in full plate would have no trouble getting up off the ground if knocked off a horse. In fact, he got up after purposely falling off a moving horse a hell of a lot faster that our characters in game do!
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Hoshiqua
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Re: Points about armors

Post by Hoshiqua » 29 Jul 2015, 16:18

Haha yea :D

Well, the blunt trauma from a sword blade is.. almost nothing, because of its shape. But if they implement half swording, it would make sense that there is some force when you use the pommel and the guard to strike !

And yes, armor impeding your movement is a myth. But this game has already a lot of myths from hollywood in it.. I wonder if they actually care about that xD


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Re: Points about armors

Post by Hoshiqua » 27 Aug 2015, 11:39

This is a big debate about armor so I'm bumping :D Plus I didn't write all of this for it to get lost in the old pages :crazy:

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Re: Points about armors

Post by Deus-X-Incognita » 27 Aug 2015, 18:20

Padded Armor actually has quite good stopping power against arrows (which woul fall in the piercing category I think), so good, that it probably would stop most arrows on common distances that hit the armor itself.

For example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CULmGfvYlso


Chainmail (authentic one, that was riveted) has surprising defensive power agains piercing weapons as well. Arrows and Bolts would pierce it, but especially arrows would not pierce very deep, that wouldn't be such a bad wound, and if - which would be quite common - you wore padded armor underneath, that would stop the rest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kl-ec6Ub7FM


With Platemail, I agree with the parts about arrows, spears, pikes and swords, i am not so sure about morning stars and similar weapons. like mace (falnge mace) and Warhammer, that acted as a piercing weapon with a lot of force behind them, and were the weapons that could actually penetrate plate armor, and therefore were used by knights when knights wore plate, that swords couldn't touch anymore.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_hammer
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mace_(club)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morning_star_(weapon)

In the game, on the piercing category, you see the pictrure of such a warhammer, which would make the weakness to piercing what it should be. Sadly, there is no easy distinction between low power piercing and high power piercing.
What could help (and I do not actually have any idea how the damage and armor work ingame) is, that there is a absolute AND a relative reduction in damage, so that low damage is mostly absorbed, and of high damage goes through, but its not really the right representation either.
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Hoshiqua
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Re: Points about armors

Post by Hoshiqua » 27 Aug 2015, 18:40

Thank you for taking the time to make such a developed answer ;)

I have troubles believing an arrow wouldn't go through padded. I remember agincourt you know, my ancestors died by arrows, pretty sure about that :D

I guess it depends on other factors. Quality of linen, movement of the target (here it was a static target that was pinned on wood, so the wood must have taken some of the energy), area hit..

MAIL (and not "chain"mail, that's a modern term), that's the one I know the least about I'd say, so surely you are right. Still, it is known a sword could pierce a mail armor easily. Why ? Because that's how you killed people in plate armor with a sword, by using half swording, you would drive the tip into one of the gaps. And also, in the video you linked, there is also padding, so I don't know.. I have yet to see thrusting tested against mail alone.

About plate, in reality, people think the weapons that were useful, like the one you mentionned, did actual piercing damages, and wounded people that way.

But in reality, they only dented the armor, it didn't go through. But think about it, if it DENTS the armor, it means it is stuck inside, more or less. That means ALL the blunt energy would go into your target, there wouldn't be any of hit glancing off the armor.

So that's how morningtars, or any spiked hammers / maces were useful against plate. They were a lot more efficient at transfering the energy of the hit.

But you can not completly thrust through a metal plate with metal, except in a few rare exceptions (bolts at point blank range, some very heavy polearms..)

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Re: Points about armors

Post by Deus-X-Incognita » 28 Aug 2015, 00:41

Maces / Spiked Hammers / ... only denting the metal and so transferring force sounds right, I guess that was how they did the most damage - the dent would be a weakspot for other blows coming through though, as they would land there easier, because the deflecting quality of the armor would suffer at the point of hit.

I have no real experience with half swording, but in the videos i saw it looked as if the weapon didn't get through very far - there would still be quite some power behind it in anyway, if that hit the body directly it would do damage - but not as much if there hadn't been Mail (maille / chainmail / whatever (not native english, so I do not care so much about the right term, as the game term)) between. It was no test against a more robust (less moving) target, only protected by maille though, as that would have probably more damage, as you said.

I do not have deep knowledge about the Battle of Agincourt, but from what I read up, the main damage of the arrows went into the horses - and most of the opponents that were cut down, after the many tactical errors, were knights, so wouldn't have worn only a gambeson. The people cutting them down (with their hand weapons in many cases) were trained longbow archers though.

That said, Armor penetration videos and literature are not clear on what would have worked how well. That one for example gives some protection to thicker padded armor, but it is also done with calculations for a heavy longbow on large distances.
http://www.currentmiddleages.org/artsci ... esting.pdf

That one shows quite some protection with a gambeson, but the arrow still pierces (but very much less as without it)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NMYv5wtNm8

Sadly I could not find the video, I watched some time ago, which tried several attacks against different armors (no plate as far as I remember), and piercing arrows were best stopped by padded armor.


In conclusion, if probably depends on many things, so a comparison is not easy, some take small dentures behind the protection as fatal, others only penetration by a large amount - and not one I found really tested thoroughly several methods with the same system, on many different, realistic, targets.


Game term wise, the slowing down is probably too high, speaking form a realisitc approach.

But as already said in the opening post, the problem is the counter to plate. And there we have difficulties in the game.

It starts with plate being easily and fast built - while we have to wait a long time for wheat to grow, I can build armor very fast. Thats the point, where a balancing would have to start, to make it realistic.

1) it should take long to make, with many steps between
2) it should be made for one person, or fit maybe 1 in 7 (e.g. make it like with the herbs, and there are 7 armor sizes, each one has one assigned, plate armor has to be fitted exactly, while other armor can go up or down one or two steps.) That way it cannot easily be mass produced for everyone.

Its always the question what is aimed for though, and if the way to do it works. The "realistic" thing would be common fighters in padded armor or with chain, and only few with plate.
That can be reached by having padded armor effective somehow, so its probably hard to make plate armor as effective as would be realistic, in a game with respawn and easy loot (how much you can carry far). Even if it is very hard to make.

But as a compromise it could be hard to make, and for that get a few benefits.
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Re: Points about armors

Post by Eidolan » 29 Aug 2015, 06:28

I also feel there are other options to balancing armor for the game that people are not looking at.

Maybe make it so its almost impossible to perform any non combat tasks while wearing heavy / full suits of armor, this would also have the add bonus of not having entire CITIES of people milling about in armor while they plant crops or chop down trees, it just looks silly if you ask me.

Discomfort: Now I have never worn plate armor and some one feel free to correct me but I would think it was not the most comfortable thing to wear for long amounts of time. Maybe make it so you SLOWLY lose hard stam if you wear your armor for too long, I'm talking about hours not minutes.

Weather: In the MMO there will be weather/ seasons/ climates, so if it is high noon on the southern part of the map (the Dessert looking area) you are probably going to have a heat stroke in full plate and fighting. Not sure how being in a big metal can would effect you in the cold, sure metal gets cold but all the padding under it might keep you warm.

Putting the armor on: Maybe make it so you need help to put your suit of full plate on, this combined with some of the other points I made (not having your armor on all the time due to stam or needing to craft) would leave you VERY vulnerable to a surprise attack as you and you're helper (squire?) would need to take precious time away from defending your town to equip your armor.

Maintenance: We have all talked about making armor cost more to make but what about its cost to up keep? If you make it so it took a lot of time and skill to fix the armor after every battle it would hamper the wide scale use of plate.

Custom fittings: You go to visit your local master black smith, he would need take your measurements (an item in his inventory?) and with them he could make you a set of custom fitted armor, this would help prevent people from stock piling armor in a box and handing them out like candy to every new person who joins their kingdom.

Needing more then a blacksmith to craft: Full plate would likely need a leather worker to make the straps, a tailor to make the padding and maybe an engineer to design the armor it self. With the skill cap of the MMO you now need 4 people JUST to make the armor, not counting the other people needed to get those 4 people running at a level to make the high end parts you need.

More crafting specializations: Now this is kind of a whole game changer but hear me out. Normally the blacksmith who is making the Knights armor is NOT the dude making nails and horseshoes down in the town, if you made armor crafting replace regular blacksmith that would mean all your armor smith could do is MAKE ARMOR, nothing else, and if you made it so only HIGH end armors needed this skill (Plates, High end scale and chain) not many people would want to be a one trick crafting pony, so the few people who are willing to forsake all other crafting would be a HIGH demand for the larger kingdoms who need many suits of high end armor.

This I feel would also separate larger Kingdoms from smaller towns as the small village might not be able to afford the super specialized armor smith when their town defenders can make due with simple chain and leather armors.

More combat skills needed to use plate: If plate needed, Leather, Padded, Chain and Plate skill to use it would GREATLY limit plate spam. You would need to sink 400 out of your 600 combat skills into just wearing plate, at this point you could only learn to use (assuming you went too 100) two kinds of weapons or one weapon and a shield, making you a VERY specialized shock troop. I think only die hard heavy armor fan boys (such as my self) would go to these heights to use plate, making it the rare and powerful sight on the battle field it should be.


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Re: Points about armors

Post by Eidolan » 05 Sep 2015, 02:09

Did my giant post kill this discussion? I was looking forward to some feed back on my ideas lol

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