Tree Growth in beta

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Sanguinius
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Re: Tree Growth in beta

Post by Sanguinius » 18 Oct 2016, 05:45

I feel like in an in game week, a group investing a good amount of time should be able to get palisade walls up. A large group, could theoretically still clear cut around them for a long while and build a massive wall, but that is not really a good thing. If you made this change with this in mind, making clear cutting the option unless you want to wait, then you either need to heavily increase the time it takes to make stone walls, or make palisade walls easier to make, or they will just be leapfrogged. IF done properly the economy should support making a quick palisade wall easily enough.


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Re: Tree Growth in beta

Post by Gastenns » 18 Oct 2016, 11:29

Sanguinius I do agree stone walls should be harder to build, and I'm sure that's something the devs are looking at. But you can see form a simple forest change from 7 to 20 or 13 to 30 that people become excessively concerned. I think many people expect this to be chivalry with GM abilities to make your own battleground than a survival game.
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Re: Tree Growth in beta

Post by Sharana » 18 Oct 2016, 12:49

Also everyone keeps forgetting that they are working on the MMO and ready features just land in LiF:YO. Trees had very slow growrates in wave 0 already - you feel them as resource, not as something granted. The MMO is not expected to have the longlivety of a LiF:YO server - 1-2 months at very best. In LiF:YO you even make the charcoal with 95q+ trees after 1 week or so... And no one said you will have to wait for them to get fully grown, we will figure out the most time efficient tree types to cut when they reach medium state (logs per days waited).

As of YO - it's Your Own. Who says the servers should be x1 when the lifetime of most servers is 1-2 months? The GMs will just change the server settings to their taste to keep the grind realistic for LiF:YO.
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Arrakis
 
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Re: Tree Growth in beta

Post by Arrakis » 18 Oct 2016, 13:27

Good news folks. We have decided that we will lower the growth time period a bit. We're not sure yet by how much. Once we'll decide, we'll give you some exact numbers. ;)



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Re: Tree Growth in beta

Post by Dobbles » 18 Oct 2016, 22:13

I think that is a good decision. But I am not really sure there is an easy way to solve the problem in general. And I say 'problem' because even in YO, where tree times are only 1-3 days, you regularly see players plant tree farms so they have plenty of wood for all their needs. And once that starts happening you lose the entire idea of making wood scare or hard to get. Essentially, you will just be encouraging players to make even larger tree farms so that they can still have the adequate supply of wood they need. Sure it will make the first few weeks hard for players, but really once someone picks their spot and sets up the tree farm, then its no longer worthwhile to make them wait.

Unless you are also going to put in mechanics that make planting tons fo trees close together impossible, make replanting in the same places over and over impossible, or perhaps making the process of digging up a stump take an incredible amount of work, then there is really little point in long tree cycles. (aside from making the game more grindy for the millionth time)


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Re: Tree Growth in beta

Post by Sanguinius » 19 Oct 2016, 00:15

Gastenns wrote:Sanguinius I do agree stone walls should be harder to build, and I'm sure that's something the devs are looking at. But you can see form a simple forest change from 7 to 20 or 13 to 30 that people become excessively concerned. I think many people expect this to be chivalry with GM abilities to make your own battleground than a survival game.


I hear what you are saying, but palaside walls are nerfed the hardest by this change. I would accept something like 14 days, but I still feel like 7 is a good number.

I would also propose though, that the resource costs for anything made of stone be increased (the stone cost). We should make wood structures have value, by making them economical first steps, or used as quick outposts. A castle with walls should take many months for a group to build, and palaside walls and wood keep should take a few weeks to a month. I will say though, castles and stone walls need to be worth that grind, currently they are not really unless you make besieging harder. I think some counter siege equipment, like large balistia would balance out the high cost of walls at that point.

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Re: Tree Growth in beta

Post by Azzerhoden » 19 Oct 2016, 02:47

Folks are still hung up on the need to rush to palisade walls or stone walls for protection, but these will not make you safe in the MMO. Full tree growth at 14 days is too soon in my opinion. Ideally trees that produce the highest amount of wood will take the longest time to grow.
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Sanguinius
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Re: Tree Growth in beta

Post by Sanguinius » 19 Oct 2016, 04:51

Azzerhoden wrote:Folks are still hung up on the need to rush to palisade walls or stone walls for protection, but these will not make you safe in the MMO. Full tree growth at 14 days is too soon in my opinion. Ideally trees that produce the highest amount of wood will take the longest time to grow.


If walls dont help make you safe then what is the point of walls in the first place? Just remove them from the game.

Walls do not make you invincible, but they must force attackers to spend some resources and a lot of effort to get around them, Especially if you are actively defending them.

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Erling
 
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Re: Tree Growth in beta

Post by Erling » 19 Oct 2016, 05:48

Long-term growth of trees is a very good idea, because rapid growth makes the game sitting in one place next to planted trees.

The extraction of the trees shall be accompanied by settlements of woodcutters in remote locations of forest resources.

To this mechanics it would be ideal to tie the mounts and carts for transportation of logs, of course.

So I'm all for increasing the growth cycle of the tree up to 200 days.

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Karabas
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Re: Tree Growth in beta

Post by Karabas » 19 Oct 2016, 06:08

Azzerhoden wrote:Folks are still hung up on the need to rush to palisade walls or stone walls for protection, but these will not make you safe in the MMO. Full tree growth at 14 days is too soon in my opinion. Ideally trees that produce the highest amount of wood will take the longest time to grow.

even may be both amount and quality.... but it will force to make a special rules of Q rising during growing.... not the easy way i guess and will take more morning/everyGameDay lags

need a wood right now - cut a young tree, but u will get a little amount of poor quality wood....
if so - the material reqirments for palisades should be changed......

may be it could be done in later stages of game development....

the problem is - when server starts (including MMO) - no trees are fully grown, they are all young (or i am wrong???).... so all the server will not have any good wood for building even little hats....
or some GM will be forced to manually plant lots of adult trees at server start =))))
for MMO it will be at least thousands =)))

btw the end of october is close =))) any good news about #1 ? :angel:

plaster shack built of logs will be too expensive at start =) make a little tent from branches and grass =) "shalash" (шалаш) :angel: ImageImage
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Re: Tree Growth in beta

Post by StuntmanBob » 19 Oct 2016, 09:36

Dobbles wrote:I think that is a good decision. But I am not really sure there is an easy way to solve the problem in general. And I say 'problem' because even in YO, where tree times are only 1-3 days, you regularly see players plant tree farms so they have plenty of wood for all their needs. And once that starts happening you lose the entire idea of making wood scare or hard to get. Essentially, you will just be encouraging players to make even larger tree farms so that they can still have the adequate supply of wood they need. Sure it will make the first few weeks hard for players, but really once someone picks their spot and sets up the tree farm, then its no longer worthwhile to make them wait.


I think this is a good and important point!
Please make it difficult to cultivate sapplings for planting. Maybe collecting the sapplings from trees like now but you have to cultivate them bevor you can plant them and this tooks time. Maybe like grafting in a cold frame or a greenhouse.

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Gordon der Eiserne
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Re: Tree Growth in beta

Post by Gordon der Eiserne » 19 Oct 2016, 10:02

I think so to Bob :good:

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Laertes
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Re: Tree Growth in beta

Post by Laertes » 19 Oct 2016, 18:28

Somewhere on the voting page, there was a suggestion to dry woodlogs some days for effective use as building material or fuel.

I didn´t find it yet, but it should have a similar effect here.
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Sanguinius
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Re: Tree Growth in beta

Post by Sanguinius » 19 Oct 2016, 23:50

I just solved the problem, make trees that are planted naturally grow in 14 days, make tree farm trees take 2 or 3x as long.

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Azzerhoden
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Re: Tree Growth in beta

Post by Azzerhoden » 20 Oct 2016, 02:51

Karabas wrote:even may be both amount and quality.... but it will force to make a special rules of Q rising during growing.... not the easy way i guess and will take more morning/everyGameDay lags

need a wood right now - cut a young tree, but u will get a little amount of poor quality wood....
if so - the material reqirments for palisades should be changed......

may be it could be done in later stages of game development....

the problem is - when server starts (including MMO) - no trees are fully grown, they are all young (or i am wrong???).... so all the server will not have any good wood for building even little hats....
or some GM will be forced to manually plant lots of adult trees at server start =))))
for MMO it will be at least thousands =)))



I think quality versus the age of the wood is a good idea. It certainly has application in the real world (trust me, I live in Oregon and my family has a long history of working in the woods).

The MMO server MUST start out with trees that are in various stages of age with the majority being fully mature. If the basis of the background is that we all arrived from elsewhere, then the forests should be primeval (old growth). To have the server start with young trees would be disastrous.
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TheZar
 
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Re: Tree Growth in beta

Post by TheZar » 20 Oct 2016, 23:59

What about making forest soil more important by making it, the higher the forest soil q that the tree is planted on, the faster it will grow.


Booyaah
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Re: Tree Growth in beta

Post by Booyaah » 21 Oct 2016, 15:48

I expect ppl will just terraform deep moats and high raised land for walls anyways making it near impossible for ppl to get through even without walls. Make a narrow ramp to your gate and you're somewhat set. Although the thought of them nerfing terraforming even more to prevent it...eh I don't want this turning into a KR MMO with huge boring artificial timesinks.

Maybe a better alternative (from a wall standpoint) might be to not allow one to build stone walls from scratch. Require stone walls to be upgraded from a finished palisade wall and then just get rid of the wood requirements and add more stone maybe. This would make the defensive progression seem a little bit more natural IMO.


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Re: Tree Growth in beta

Post by Apollyon » 23 Oct 2016, 13:01

The answer is definitely some combination of what has been suggested here. The answer is definitely not "make players wait longer."

Another hugely important factor to remember is that wooden items/buildings can be made more expensive without making tree growth itself more expensive.

There are a lot of angles to approach this from, but again, making people wait longer for a basic resource as a blanket solution helps nobody.


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Re: Tree Growth in beta

Post by Xiaotaoozong » 26 Oct 2016, 07:27

oh may god~ very long time~

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StuntmanB0b
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Re: Tree Growth in beta

Post by StuntmanB0b » 01 Nov 2016, 13:11

How long does the trees now need to grow to a major tree?


Onyx
 
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Re: Tree Growth in beta

Post by Onyx » 05 Nov 2016, 18:42

This seems silly.

We just went to a new server cause the old one got shut down, and now we have to wait 19 in game days.... for trees? I guess i'll start playing xbox games while waiting on the trees. :(


Seems like a wierd decision

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Re: Tree Growth in beta

Post by XeenMcKenna » 07 Nov 2016, 05:43

I think the decision makes sense... and is a very good idea for the life of the game.

We are talking about the MMO here, on a persistant server... If everyone has everything they need built in a week or two then whats the point? The game will get boring real quick. We need to be still working on our skills and our cities 6 months out to keep the interest in the game.

As for YO, servers are run by players... there are database changes and mods to solve that. So use as you wish.
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Re: Tree Growth in beta

Post by Saar » 07 Nov 2016, 09:24

In my opinion, more important than tree growth duration is about having no natural tree quality >50 (arbitrary number).

Because if it exist only one Q100 tree, these spalings will probably break all the game mechanisc.
All guild with trade this sapling on the first month and then all forest will growth in Q100 and then, for all the year after it will have "no improvement work" for woodcutters.


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Re: Tree Growth in beta

Post by Gruber » 07 Nov 2016, 13:19

XeenMcKenna wrote:We are talking about the MMO here, on a persistant server... If everyone has everything they need built in a week or two then whats the point?


With the tree growth now, you will see Stonewalls within a week instead of pallisade walls. Whats the point in being forced to wait 2-3 weeks to build up your wood projects, unable to build anything?
Pallisade walls are designt as a cheap and easy low defence building.
What are you doing while you wait for your trees to grow? RPing and getting raped by pvp Player shadowelitekiller?

XeenMcKenna wrote: The game will get boring real quick. We need to be still working on our skills and our cities 6 months out to keep the interest in the game.


MMO makes it possible to play in really big groups, clans with 200+ members already waiting. Cities will be build up even faster than in YO. The only thing you can do against this is increasing the time to farm resources by like 100times. Is it realy fun to spent 15 minutes to get 300 Stone? Spending 3 hours to build up a single wall unit?

XeenMcKenna wrote:As for YO, servers are run by players... there are database changes and mods to solve that. So use as you wish.


If someone from the dev Team had thought about the tree growth changes for a single second, they would have implented a variable in the server.xml. Tree growth now makes no sens in YO and without some coding knowledge you are not able to change this. For most gamehoster, you cant even touch the gamefiles which you have to edit.
Devs simple fucked up here, they changed the whole game mechanic and didnt think about it for a second. Nothing good for all the changes that will come with the ongoing developement of mmo.

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Re: Tree Growth in beta

Post by XeenMcKenna » 08 Nov 2016, 01:09

Gruber wrote:
XeenMcKenna wrote:We are talking about the MMO here, on a persistant server... If everyone has everything they need built in a week or two then whats the point?


With the tree growth now, you will see Stonewalls within a week instead of pallisade walls. Whats the point in being forced to wait 2-3 weeks to build up your wood projects, unable to build anything?
Pallisade walls are designt as a cheap and easy low defence building.
What are you doing while you wait for your trees to grow? RPing and getting raped by pvp Player shadowelitekiller?


They said they would be looking into the walls as well. Regardless, there are plenty of trees to get things rolling, take a look at the MMO map. Dont see a problem there.

If your going to be a part of an RP group, thats fine and all... but I would suggest that you become a Vassal to one of the larger groups for support.

Gruber wrote:
XeenMcKenna wrote: The game will get boring real quick. We need to be still working on our skills and our cities 6 months out to keep the interest in the game.


MMO makes it possible to play in really big groups, clans with 200+ members already waiting. Cities will be build up even faster than in YO. The only thing you can do against this is increasing the time to farm resources by like 100times. Is it realy fun to spent 15 minutes to get 300 Stone? Spending 3 hours to build up a single wall unit?


Yes, groups of 200+ are in the works. I know that full well as I am part of one. Cities will not be built up faster than in YO. Skills alone will slow that down. Ever play on a 1x skill server? The last Beta run was set at 10x and from what I was told, they raised skills slower than a 1x YO server.

And yes, taking hours to build stone wall sections should be how it is... for small groups. Palisades will still be faster to build on day 1 of the MMO with the available trees.

Gruber wrote:
XeenMcKenna wrote:As for YO, servers are run by players... there are database changes and mods to solve that. So use as you wish.


If someone from the dev Team had thought about the tree growth changes for a single second, they would have implented a variable in the server.xml. Tree growth now makes no sens in YO and without some coding knowledge you are not able to change this. For most gamehoster, you cant even touch the gamefiles which you have to edit.
Devs simple fucked up here, they changed the whole game mechanic and didnt think about it for a second. Nothing good for all the changes that will come with the ongoing developement of mmo.


If you cannot change the xml files for your server... Find another provider. You are paying for it and there are several providers that have no problem with you modifying the database.

If you have no knowledge about database management, either find someone who does that can help you manage your server or study up to do it. There is a lot of changes you can do to the database that will make for some interesting things on your server.

There is a variable that can be modified to change tree growth... and I am sure there is a mod in the works to do this as well.

The Devs did think about it, and made a good call... It will slow things down, which is what is needed for an MMO. Yo servers last maybe 2 or 3 months tops, then either die off or get reset because everyone is built and ran out of things to do besides kill each other. And as an RPer, I am going out on a limb and guess that is something you avoid.

To each their own, the MMO may not be for everyone. When looking at this game, think of Eve Online over games like WoW. Sandbox style games are meant to be a slow build up not a fast grind Theme Park.
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Re: Tree Growth in beta

Post by Gruber » 08 Nov 2016, 09:11

XeenMcKenna wrote:They said they would be looking into the walls as well. Regardless, there are plenty of trees to get things rolling, take a look at the MMO map. Dont see a problem there.


You are not going to have q90+ Oaks around you. You will face a lot of trees that contain any or only 1-2 logs. You have to chop down 2-3 trees for a single pallisade unit. 200 Trees is nothing and its not a good idea to carry wood half an hour to your base, when there are faster options for a wall.


XeenMcKenna wrote:Yes, groups of 200+ are in the works. I know that full well as I am part of one. Cities will not be built up faster than in YO. Skills alone will slow that down. Ever play on a 1x skill server? The last Beta run was set at 10x and from what I was told, they raised skills slower than a 1x YO server.


Did you played 1x skill ever? It is not that slow. In "Big" groups in YO, there are usually around 10-20 people online at the same time. With 10x the people online, things will be even faster than 10times.

XeenMcKenna wrote:And yes, taking hours to build stone wall sections should be how it is... for small groups. Palisades will still be faster to build on day 1 of the MMO with the available trees.


When building up things takes too long, people will get bored. Maybe you will stay, but MMO will not be that good with 64 Players online.
With a q90 tree script and someone who provides you with alot of q90 oaks you can build up a base and pallisade wall with one tree growth, but thats your easy YO Server expierince. Go start your unmodded server and try to build up a base from scratch with buildings, all professions and a pallisade wall without planting trees.

XeenMcKenna wrote:If you cannot change the xml files for your server... Find another provider. You are paying for it and there are several providers that have no problem with you modifying the database.

If you have no knowledge about database management, either find someone who does that can help you manage your server or study up to do it. There is a lot of changes you can do to the database that will make for some interesting things on your server.


Getting your hands on xml files or database is not that problem. But you cant change tree growth there, unless you want a dirty workaround.

XeenMcKenna wrote:There is a variable that can be modified to change tree growth... and I am sure there is a mod in the works to do this as well.


Why do i need a mod ore recompile game files to change a mandadtory game element? Many people complaining about tree growth in YO, because it do not fit there. Why isn´t there a option in server.xml like skill mult and all that basic stuff? There is only one reason for this, devs didnt think this through. Dont be a fanboy and accept it.

XeenMcKenna wrote:To each their own, the MMO may not be for everyone. When looking at this game, think of Eve Online over games like WoW. Sandbox style games are meant to be a slow build up not a fast grind Theme Park.


Many people dislike the patch, thats a fact. In the end LIF is a game, and most people want fun while playing, not feeling to work 1000h and more. You may enjoy grinding for 100h to build up a single house, but most people dont. Even hardcore asia grinders got quests now...

I dont know how many people got an invite to the last beta we. so i dont know if we have to call the max players online numbers a disaster or not.

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XeenMcKenna
 
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Re: Tree Growth in beta

Post by XeenMcKenna » 08 Nov 2016, 09:26

Dude, seriously... minimal effort

http://steamcommunity.com/app/290080/di ... 321633855/

Not bothering with the rest...
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Re: Tree Growth in beta

Post by Tholld » 08 Nov 2016, 10:21

Are you all in a hurry?
Why modern games always must provide everything NOW or in a minute? Impatience kills your fun and let you go from one game to another after a few weeks.
I want to play LIF for a long time if it will be the product I hope for.
This tree growth means that I have to plan when to plant new ones like I would have to do in RL. So what?
When server starts you can use the trees already available and should start to plant new ones in time, that's all.

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Re: Tree Growth in beta

Post by Artemisriv » 08 Nov 2016, 10:50

@Gruber, ive been wathcing your posts and those of XeenmcKenna.. and i truelly must agree with Xeen, the way u like the MMO is the way World of Warcraft went, yes people will get stuff up soon and have time to PVP, but if thats the only thing u are looking for in a MMO, LiF is definately nothing for you.

This is not a No Brainer Hack and Slash game were you gear up to max in a few RL days. No, people will have to work together to achive something. And yes that takes a while. Ever seen a forest grow in a RL day? Dont think so. and neither does that have to be the way in Life is Feudal.

What i always liked in this game is the semi- Realism and feel the game gives you. Growing stuff takes time, take it into account and plan things. Actually achieve stuff together, not login with 200+ people, lvl in 1-2 days and rape everyone else on the server, get bored and leave the MMO.. if thats what u want go play CoD, Fast action, quick lvling etc etc.

19 RL Days for a forest to grow is a bit harsh, but a week should be ok. Makes you think about it and plan ahead. Like in the real old days. Noone build a town from scratch in a week. No they developed over time, and thats exactly what i like in this game.

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StuntmanB0b
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Re: Tree Growth in beta

Post by StuntmanB0b » 02 Dec 2016, 12:49

Hi what do I have to change to raise up speed of tree growth? I mean at cm_forest_maintenance.xml. I'm no programmer so I don't know what line I have to change. Please help.

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