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YES, I know, this will shock many of you, but I think skill lines should be flat removed. Don't get me wrong, not the skill themselves, but the fact that you have to level one skill up to go to the other.
On the peaceful tab, every skill should be independant. But, to prevent people from mastering too much, skill cap should be lowered to like 400, even 300. Imposed skill lines are stupid, I think. Why ? Because I don't want to be a chicken farmer to process leather, for example, or I don't want to be a miner to be a blacksmith.. skill lines will create themselves amongst communities, mainly depending on the population in one group of players who do trade : little communities would have to be jack of all trades, so they can provide their own wood to saw into planks, or they would have to provide their own flax to make their own basic cloth.. that's what will happen. Large communities who manage to run a city with a lot of specialised workshop will be rewarded by the fact that they should be amongst the only ones who can manage to make Q > 60 ~ items. Cities would be collections of people mastering their own little profession. That would bring a huge amount of trading, and cooperating. I see two drawbacks about the current system :
1 - People have to know how to more than decently make the basic materials they need for more advanced skill. That will make "lower" profession a lot less valuable, because, basically, you clients know how to do it too.
2 - Dumb lines. Chicken farmer to process leather ? People were making basic clothing out of leather before agriculture itself !
Now, you may think "Yea, but everyone is going to go for the high tier skills"
Well, if they wish, let them. But they will quickly see that it's not a good move. Why ? Because too little people would produce basic goods, the prices would rise, and there ; you make a lot less money for a profession you thought more "advanced".
Having this system would, as I said earlier, bring a lot more trade in the game.
Now, for the combat tab. It is a bit different. Yes, still remove all the skill lines.
I know, skill lines kind of make sense for some skills, like warhorse handling -> mounted combat. But since you will have to get up on a horse to practive mounted combat anyway.. And, again, "virtual" skilllines would still be there : a master mounted fighter with very low horse skill would be.. useless. But ALL the other lines should be removed, for a lot of reasons :
- It makes no sense you have to know how to use a particular kind of weapon to use a type of armor
- It makes no sense you have to know how to use a particular kind of weapon to use another
- It makes no sense you have to know how to use a particular king of weapon / armor for skills like warcry, battle preps..
- Being able to train in all kinds of weapons would facilitate new players arrival in a developed world.
- Being able to train in all kinds of weapons would make early game warfare more about axes and spears, and shields, and make the kind of
"technology" advancing make a lot more sense, and be a thing.
Oh, yea, NO, it would not allow to create "OP" combos. Why ? Because if there are OP combos in a realistic game, it is either a flaw of the game balancing (not the skill system), or it is a very costly equipment with a very hard and long training required. For example : archers in plate armor : they are already possible btw, but plate should give a malus to using bows and crossbows.. or even ranged weapons. helmets could hide some of your view, and gauntlets would make you take a lot more time to load in an arrow and shoot it.
As for armor skill themselves.. personally, I think they should be removed. Why ? Because.. you do know when you put an armor on a stomp, it gives it the same protection as it would give to you, right ? Armor skills should be removed and replaced by a unique skill : armor handling. it wouldn't have to be skilled up to unlock tiers of armors or anything, but having a high skill in it would take less stamina to move with it (a LITTLE less, it would still be more about strengh), but mainly would make you faster to get back on your feet after a fall if you're wearing heavy armor, it would diminish the animations / action speed malus.. that skill would be trained by doing combat, or even everyday action, wearing a more or less heavy armor.
To prevent people from too easily making tier 3 armies, higher than tier 1 armors should take a LONG time to make, and cost more, so when you see someone in tier 3 armor, you know he's not a nobody.
If you have any questions or want more details, don't hesistate to ask !
On the peaceful tab, every skill should be independant. But, to prevent people from mastering too much, skill cap should be lowered to like 400, even 300. Imposed skill lines are stupid, I think. Why ? Because I don't want to be a chicken farmer to process leather, for example, or I don't want to be a miner to be a blacksmith.. skill lines will create themselves amongst communities, mainly depending on the population in one group of players who do trade : little communities would have to be jack of all trades, so they can provide their own wood to saw into planks, or they would have to provide their own flax to make their own basic cloth.. that's what will happen. Large communities who manage to run a city with a lot of specialised workshop will be rewarded by the fact that they should be amongst the only ones who can manage to make Q > 60 ~ items. Cities would be collections of people mastering their own little profession. That would bring a huge amount of trading, and cooperating. I see two drawbacks about the current system :
1 - People have to know how to more than decently make the basic materials they need for more advanced skill. That will make "lower" profession a lot less valuable, because, basically, you clients know how to do it too.
2 - Dumb lines. Chicken farmer to process leather ? People were making basic clothing out of leather before agriculture itself !
Now, you may think "Yea, but everyone is going to go for the high tier skills"
Well, if they wish, let them. But they will quickly see that it's not a good move. Why ? Because too little people would produce basic goods, the prices would rise, and there ; you make a lot less money for a profession you thought more "advanced".
Having this system would, as I said earlier, bring a lot more trade in the game.
Now, for the combat tab. It is a bit different. Yes, still remove all the skill lines.
I know, skill lines kind of make sense for some skills, like warhorse handling -> mounted combat. But since you will have to get up on a horse to practive mounted combat anyway.. And, again, "virtual" skilllines would still be there : a master mounted fighter with very low horse skill would be.. useless. But ALL the other lines should be removed, for a lot of reasons :
- It makes no sense you have to know how to use a particular kind of weapon to use a type of armor
- It makes no sense you have to know how to use a particular kind of weapon to use another
- It makes no sense you have to know how to use a particular king of weapon / armor for skills like warcry, battle preps..
- Being able to train in all kinds of weapons would facilitate new players arrival in a developed world.
- Being able to train in all kinds of weapons would make early game warfare more about axes and spears, and shields, and make the kind of
"technology" advancing make a lot more sense, and be a thing.
Oh, yea, NO, it would not allow to create "OP" combos. Why ? Because if there are OP combos in a realistic game, it is either a flaw of the game balancing (not the skill system), or it is a very costly equipment with a very hard and long training required. For example : archers in plate armor : they are already possible btw, but plate should give a malus to using bows and crossbows.. or even ranged weapons. helmets could hide some of your view, and gauntlets would make you take a lot more time to load in an arrow and shoot it.
As for armor skill themselves.. personally, I think they should be removed. Why ? Because.. you do know when you put an armor on a stomp, it gives it the same protection as it would give to you, right ? Armor skills should be removed and replaced by a unique skill : armor handling. it wouldn't have to be skilled up to unlock tiers of armors or anything, but having a high skill in it would take less stamina to move with it (a LITTLE less, it would still be more about strengh), but mainly would make you faster to get back on your feet after a fall if you're wearing heavy armor, it would diminish the animations / action speed malus.. that skill would be trained by doing combat, or even everyday action, wearing a more or less heavy armor.
To prevent people from too easily making tier 3 armies, higher than tier 1 armors should take a LONG time to make, and cost more, so when you see someone in tier 3 armor, you know he's not a nobody.
If you have any questions or want more details, don't hesistate to ask !
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mattanjakos, omar_rolon_dx, henrylebichon0 and 123 others likes this post.
Comments (93)
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Accepted Answer
12Another great idea. The skill trees don't make sense and don't improve gameplay in any way. Scrap 'em. I would happily sacrifice a couple hundred skill points for the chance to be able to actually customize my template.
It's not so rewarding to spend hundreds of hours building a character that in the end is the exact same cookie cutter build as everyone else. I remember when I started playing UO so many years ago I was amazed at the freedom they gave you to create any character you want. My first character was a tamer/fencer with spears. An absolutely terrible build, but I had an incredible amount of fun nonetheless. Learning about the game and experimenting with different builds kept me playing for years afterwards. I hope LiF can keep me engaged for years to come as well. -
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8I am no fan to just remove skill tree.
In my eyes best possible option is server checkbox (like we have Judgement hour Enabled/Disabled, Decay Enabled/Disabled etc...)
"Skill lines" Enabled/Disabled
If server admin decides he wants skills linkedlike now, he can, if decides free independent skills, he can. And player can choose which server is best for his enjoyment.
Remember, its Your Own, so developers should provide as much variability to server admins as is possible to create "His Own" rules for "His Own" server
. Like Hoshiqua, capitaniojr, Metal and 5 others likes this post. -
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5Yes. Please remove skill trees. They are pretty ridiculous and confining. This feature is NOT an appeal to prospective players.Like AsherMaximum, Svangr, Blackcolt and 2 others likes this post. -
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1Totally agree that the skill lines are rubbish. Still there are some skills that in some kind depent on each other. For example if you are good at forging weapons you will have an advantage to forge other things.
So what about some kind of "skill field"? There you can learn everything whenever you want and every few points you invest in it give you a little bonus to every other skill in this field:Like Deantwo, flamingsoul65, Blackcolt and Soriki likes this post. -
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4No, I don't think you should have to "choose" skill lines when you create your character. Remember that each characters will have to be paid for, and I don't think most people will enjoy buying a new char just because they want to re-organise their skill lines. Remember, this post is about REMOVING any CONCEPT of skill lines in the game, except for those that REALLY make FULL sense like the one described in the post, and that wouldn't even be mandatory for "virtual" skill lines to still exist.Like JohnHunter, Aniimosiity, L0ngster and alexgvarela94 likes this post. -
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12I agree with Hoshiqua. Removing the skill trees adds a lot of customization options to the player, and drives the economy in a more complex way. Cookie cutter characters are not valuable to players. Also, the economy is driven by quality already so no additional skills are needed to inforce this. For example, if I am a bowcrafter and I do not have the skills for gathering high quality boards or linen ropes; however, I do have the skill to make high quality bows, so my only option is to trade with a lumberjack or a rope maker to make my high quality bows. This drives the economy effectively and efficiently.Like Aniimosiity, Dextrome and Durka likes this post. -
Accepted Answer
3Along with changing the skill lines. I thought that there might need to be specialties within many of the skills. Every blacksmith should not be able to make quality 100 anything. A blacksmith who makes farming supplies isn't going to make armor and weapons just as well. If we could have specializations that were logical such as that, it would make room for people to operate in a town.
You could go even further than this. Specializing in certain types of armor or weapons. If you need a scimitar, I'm the best blacksmith in town for that. But my colleague here actually makes the best knight swords. These specializations could go for many classes and could be made logical with different tiers. Even farmers who raised cows, sheep or pigs their whole lives would be specialized and raise better quality animals. So, farmer>animals>pigs, or Blacksmith>weapons>axes>war axe. It adds the possibility of extra tiers to help differentiate and expand the need for more people in a society at its highest levels.Like capitaniojr, Deantwo and Aniimosiity likes this post. -
Accepted Answer
5I agree with the idea of removing the skilltree as it is now, while changing it would also be an option removing it is the easier way since you dont need to do any more balancing.
Also making the armor a new tree wouldnt make any sense at all, I dont need to know how to use a shield or leatherarmor to wear plate, since its a totaly different story how to use these kinds of armor.Like Soriki and alexgvarela94 likes this post. -
Accepted Answer
-9Removing the skill tree would be good for make skills more accessible and aid having small groups create some kind of settlement more quickly (even if it's low QL). In removing it I think something else interesting needs adding such as having an output quality multiplier for a skills based on related skills.
For example, making bows: If you have just bow crafting at 100 you can make ok bows, QL 33 or something. If you have carpentry and bow craft at 100 you can maybe make a better bow, maybe QL 66. If you have bow crafting, forestry and, carpentry at 100 you can make a 100 QL bow (you know how to build bows, how to best craft the parts for or take best advantage of how the parts of made, and how to get the most from the grain of the wood from knowing how the tree the wood comes from grows). The weighting would not have to be even or require 100 in the secondary skill(s) to get the full QL modifier that skill contributes, the values could all be stores in the database somewhere to be nice and Modder friendly.
Example crafting equation:
Bow QL = max( [QL contributed by materials] * ( max(bowcraft, [x]) * [a] + max(carpentry, [y]) * [b] + max(forestry, [z]) * [c] ), 100 );
Where a, b and c are values scaling the contribution of each skill, and x, y and z are values specifying what is the maximum value in a skill that still give a contribution to the output. The primary skill in this case bow craft probably wants to have x as 100.
If you want even more detail the crafting QL equation could be per item, not per skill. So a primary skill is needed to craft the item, then other skills can contribute to the output QL.
Apologies for spamming this detail here, but it's dependant on the existing skill tree being removed, as per this vote. (+1 this post if you want to see this posted as it's own feature to vote on).Like AsherMaximum and aydjile likes this post. -
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4I completely agree with removing Skill lines, but I don't really support the lat part of your argument Hoshiqua because it seems like it is a different discussion.Like Oreios and alexgvarela94 likes this post. -
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2Thank you for your reply..
First off, I'd like to say, when I use the example of the blacksmith having to be a miner also, I don't mean he has to do it himself all the time, but I meant he has to spend precious skill points on something he will never do, because you're right, blacksmiths rarely go mine themselves, and it will be even rarer when MMO comes out, with ressources being regional. But removing the skill lines would allow you to be a blacksmith directly, without having to go learn to be a more than decent miner (which 60 skillpoints is, basically) before doing that, as long as there is ore available mined by someone else.
Second, yes, people would be able to go for engineer blacksmith architect etc.. but what would be the point ? You would be spread out over many very high tier skills which require tons of very different ressources. It would be more a pain than anything being all of that, because it is a lot less manageable. Let players do that if they will, they will soon find out that they are way better off focusing on one type of activity. But if they are willing to do all the work of organisation and collection needed to do all those advanced crafts, I don't see the problem..
Finally, the aim is not to craft what you want.. where did I say that ? No, lowering the skill cap wouldn't change much about what you can do : in the end, a lot of your skillpoints are used to raise skills you never use, because of the skill lines logic. Having no skill lines, like stated in the suggestion, would bring a lot more interactions between players, if you also lower the cap a bit. Why ? Because it will become a NECESSITY in order to make high quality products ! In most skills, you need to have 100 skillpoints in order to make QL 100 stuff, right ? Well, with a bit lower skill cap, you could level up a few skills to 100 if you wanted, but it would leave you with very little variability in what you can do : you would rely on other players to provide the ressources needed, and thus this would work only in big settlements (which makes sense !), while little groups will still have virtual "skill lines", because, skill lines or not, you can not be a carpenter without some way to get wood.
And that, my friend, would at least keep the amount of interaction needed alive, if it does not increase it, and would allow for much more freedom of activity. Don't tell me there is a lot of diversity, especially in early game.. it's always the same, boring stuff : get forge, get coops, get leather, get weapons, get walls -> fight. While this would allow for a free progression that would only be limited by the available ressources, which makes MUCH, MUCH more sense than the current system, don't you think ? I would also allow a lot more early PvP : spears and axes and clubs are craftable much quicklier than swords (which makes sense, also), and thus, the first few days, if not the first week, would mostly be composed of axe and spear fighting, instead of nonsense pitchfork.
Sorry for the wall of text, I hope you understand my point.Like MarcCeras and Aniimosiity likes this post. -
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2I have to agree, get rid of the tree. I want to be a ranger type who lives in the woods and lives off the lands. I can't do this because I have to have a skill (can't remember) before I can get leather armor, then I have to get leather armor before I get bows and arrows. This make it stupid and does not work for me. Also, I don't want a horse so why do I need to have this skill in order to get to other skills that I do want and make no sense that they are in the category for needing a horse first.
Get rid of the skill tree and give us the basic survival skills so we don't die, but let use decide how we want to play our characters.Again take a look at Skyrim, they actually have a pretty good system for being a relatively older game.Like Aniimosiity and Dextrome likes this post. -
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2I agree on this suggestion, it's pretty sound, especially if it's a toggle so different servers can choose.
Want to play a hunter (with or without friends) in a camp - just remember you can't cook your game until you've planted enough apple trees, shoveled enough dung and made enough rope. Only then are you learned to comprehend the masterful skill of roasting beef over fire.
In all seriousness though I do like that the devs take time to ask for our opinion, hopefully they'll look into this suggestion. -
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0I 100% agree on this! This would open many more options and specialties.bizaroblyatt08 wrote:
Along with changing the skill lines. I thought that there might need to be specialties within many of the skills. Every blacksmith should not be able to make quality 100 anything. A blacksmith who makes farming supplies isn't going to make armor and weapons just as well. If we could have specializations that were logical such as that, it would make room for people to operate in a town.
You could go even further than this. Specializing in certain types of armor or weapons. If you need a scimitar, I'm the best blacksmith in town for that. But my colleague here actually makes the best knight swords. These specializations could go for many classes and could be made logical with different tiers. Even farmers who raised cows, sheep or pigs their whole lives would be specialized and raise better quality animals. So, farmer>animals>pigs, or Blacksmith>weapons>axes>war axe. It adds the possibility of extra tiers to help differentiate and expand the need for more people in a society at its highest levels. -
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2I play on a 1000 skillpoints server, so you can't do everything. Also I used to play the MMO pre alpha tests which had 1* skill multi and 600 skillcap and almost no one to help you in kilometers so don't lecture me on difficulty.
Skill lines only bring bottlenecks to groups' progress, with bottlenecks such as animal lore or herbalism. Those are neither enjoyable, nor do they feel rewarding when you get past them, because it was just a pain in the ass. Beside, as I said in the main post, most skill lines make no sense whatsoever. People that are here for immersion aren't really.. satisfied by this.
To counter for the fact that players will be able to just "rush" whatever job they want to do, you can just lower the skillcap to make up for the the points that won't be spent anymore in "useless but required" skills.
As for time, well, just lower the skill multi. I mean, jeez, was it realy that hard to find a solution to those problems ?
Beside, skill lines make it easy and unpunishing to choose a certain profession. While here, with no lines to guide you, and hard to train skills, you would have to choose VERY carefully, and as such it will bring either a lot more specialization = more trade, or more diversification of skills one player has, depending on the group's population (as such, only big groups that can afford to feed and equip people who specialize in one or two skill will be able to have master craftsmen).Like Dexploratio and Durka likes this post.
