Current state of the game

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Agathius
 
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Current state of the game

Post by Agathius » 27 Dec 2017, 14:07

Recently there have been a lot of complaints in the Discord, and from friends that i know personally, but i did not really see a post befitting of rounding up all those complaints and making a point to why there are a lot of people quitting the game, a lot of old players, and why the current game is sadly going straight downwards. In a few words:

Firstly, an RP world was made, tickets were granted. This threw our ambitions of a Free world withought player made rules where PVP, PVE and RP-PVP RP-PVE clans would get along, go to trash withought a second say. This was why we were waiting for the MMO in the first place, but we got dumped. We endured it, hoping that the Devs, who have been shaping up their game years now successfully taking into consideration the right people, would see why it was bad. Nothing happened, it passed, no one ever said anything about it after.

Then, people started realising that it is impossible to maintain "Feudalism", the very word and world the game stands for, as people who are weak do not really need protection, and everyone knows why. No one will spend Vostaskus ingots to wipe out a T1 monument (Which is, by the way, impossible as of now) and no one is going to ever be able to harm you. Why implement feudalism if everyone can live like that? Where is the essence of the game?

Afterwards, even more, PvP slowly got disabled in a lot of ways. Using objects to scale was disabled... JH was enabled but only on Realm claims... IB's (Both siege and Field) are expensive and as of now, pointless too, just a measuring of *****. Then climbing on horses or people to get over walls was disabled. The only thing not disabled so far is jumping over walls from a mountain, in the case of 1 to 100 where people do not build properly. Even then they will simply hide in houses and logg off.

So i have to ask the Devs, why? Why did you shape the game up in a way that reflects YO? We were waiting for something far different, our expectations were thrown to trash. Why is the game Feudal and why is it Hardcore as of now?
Is it too late for LiF to take a different road and suit the playstyle of everyone, finally uniting RP, non RP, PvE and PVP, or will it continue it's road into a sure wipe and a dead game?

This i type with a heavy heart, having 3200 hours in YO, 2000 least in the MMO, having helped YOU in CBT as much as i would, hoping for a good game, but instead seeing mine ambitions and everyone else's thrown to the Trash can. I believe most people can reflect to this, whether it is Enemy, Ally, Neutral.

Now do not mistake me for an idiot, you'd say that if i have so much shit to throw on this i'd simply go to another game. Yes, if the Devs were crippled and if the Community was non existent, i'd gladly do so. But we can see the Devs work on the game almost Daily, that they like what they do, that there is a community of all fruits out there, so why quit? Instead we should change how it is now, request it to be changed, at least, from whoever agrees that the game is taking the bad road.

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Re: Current state of the game

Post by Frontal » 27 Dec 2017, 14:23

Just posting to counter this 100% safe world bobik is creating.
Roaming is dead, there is no resource you can't get from the safety of your claim, which are now 100% safe if you put in any effort (drying rack spam).

This game will devolve into a login for JH/IB/Siege and logout.
Nobody roams this isn't darkfall or MO where you have to go out into the world to get materials. Roaming pvp will never be a solution on LiF because there is no reason to roam.

Don't kill the PvPers reasons to login.
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Re: Current state of the game

Post by Neocron_draico » 27 Dec 2017, 14:35

I wanted to avoid being dramatic so I didn't make a post during the last round of changes

but how much more can they do before people start quitting the game?

Emergent gameplay is the lifeblood of this kind of MMO, and making constant efforts to undermine the ability of emergent gameplay to occur is so bloody harmful I don't think the appreciate it fully.

Everything is predictable now, you have completely safe spaces to pve for the vast majority of the time with some pre-planned pvp action every now and again. This is not the good basis for a solid, engaging, dynamic game.

There is huge potential in LiF, and there is a huge demand for a genuine hardcore MMO with all the interesting politics and drama that comes along with it. Bitbox is squandering this potential to appease a few vocal carebears.

Its dangerous.


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Re: Current state of the game

Post by Dziqn » 27 Dec 2017, 14:43

Arrakis wrote:This patch contains a good chunk of fixes, along with an important feature, which should make players slip and fall if they step on top of other players or horses. This should prevent the abuse of the mechanics that allowed some players to climb over perimeter walls outside of JH periods by making a human centipede siege ladder.


For me it was last method to make ppl fight in small scale pvp.

How you will make ppl leave castles for pvp now ? I and my friends like to go to do pvp every evening for 2-3h. And most of the time we only see people on walls ...


Can u pls make some kind of small battle totems (10vs10) for "fun purpose" and small wagers ?? So ppl who like to do pvp have daily access for it.


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Re: Current state of the game

Post by VindicteMortis » 27 Dec 2017, 14:46

These might sound like small changes to protect 'vulnerable elements' of the community - but they're setting the game down a path that honestly doesn't make it a very interesting game to play anymore.

I actually miss being barkboxed and attacked at any time of day.

Now its hard to motivate myself to log in because whats the point lol

no emergent gameplay just scheduled lobby pvp I can't even meet because of time zoning. Just sterile pve with no real purpose.

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Re: Current state of the game

Post by Hodo » 27 Dec 2017, 14:48

The OP is dead on accurate with his assessment of the state of the game.

I am not a big PVPer but the removal of EVERY way to get to your enemy if they are behind a fence is getting stupid. Any child can build a palisade wall around them and keep people out, permanently now. Which is flat out retarded.

The easiest fix would be cut the cost of battle totems in half, remove Vost steel ingots from the siege totem and let us develop a feudal world the way it should be... through force, might and diplomacy.
Don't build what you can't defend- Rule number 1.


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Re: Current state of the game

Post by VindicteMortis » 27 Dec 2017, 14:54

I think smaller scale pvp should exist as well though

not just huge planned battles

the only way to raid or small scale pvp is to literally wait outside an rival claim and hope they try to push you off.

But the combat is meaningless.


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Re: Current state of the game

Post by Agathon » 27 Dec 2017, 15:14

It wasn't fair that 200+ man groups could just take out anyone they please by stacking horses and people over 30+ ft walls, and stacking unrealistic floating bark boxes and camping groups. More people quit the game because they were camped 24/7 because of stupid game mechanics, then the devs making the game more playable with these patch fixes.

Make siege ladders... where you can craft them, push them up against the wall and they can be kicked off with a certain timer.
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Re: Current state of the game

Post by Peegee77 » 27 Dec 2017, 15:20

There is absolutely NOTHING preventing you all from doing as much PVP as you want. You can form up, meet up and fight 24 hours a day. But that isn't actually what you want, is it? You want easy targets, people who don't have the skillpoints, the equipment or the inclination to fight. You want to gank people because you don't actually have the skills to explore the combat and formation mechanics that the game has given you.

Oh dear, how sad for you. You'll actually have to get out in the field and learn some proper PVP skills for a change.

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Re: Current state of the game

Post by Agathius » 27 Dec 2017, 15:27

Am sorry now, but who are you to insult as if you know me? Make up actual arguements to back your selfishness and your inability in certain sectors of the game. You do not know if i pvp, you do not know if the above pvp. I want to enjoy this game like i did in the old times. I PvP with everyone and then i shake hands with them for a reason. Please, give us an arguement, give me an arguement that i can reply on, an arguement made out of logic and sense, and not things you hear repeated every day by the known unknown people who are so good at pvping that do not even have to get out of their houses, walls and safespace to prove it.
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Re: Current state of the game

Post by Peegee77 » 27 Dec 2017, 15:31

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Mid afternoon on a weekday. Doesn't look like the game is dying to me. Add the server pops together you've got over 4,000 people playing, compared to 26,000 in EVE at this exact same time. I'd say the devs are getting it right.

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Re: Current state of the game

Post by Agathius » 27 Dec 2017, 15:33

It is indeed the first time i see a person being content with the player amount when the Servers are supposed to hold 10 K people and when the MMO in it's OBT day had 4,5 K people, and now reaches 2.5 K to 3K. Log in to Your Own, see how many people do not play the MMO, ask them why they do not. You will understand.

But i am honored, i have the first Clan leader of 10 people commenting on my post. It is good that people know what forced this game to go where it is now.
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Re: Current state of the game

Post by Zeran » 27 Dec 2017, 15:41

I agree this new "fix" of using people and horses to get over walls and the fact bark boxes can only be dropped in JH has completely ruined the game. There is now no motivation to log on properly apart from IB and JH but even they aren't a stable pvp environment atm.

The devs wanted to stop or at least lessen the use of macros however this is just encouraging it people can just afk macro in their base with no threat what so ever.

With what the devs are doing to the Avalon servers means that they have wasted their money on hosting the epeland servers because they are turning Avalon the supposed pvp server into a pve roleplaying server with no danger/threat for the player I bought this game because I wanted a challenge I didn't want to be safe sitting behind walls afking all day.

Using methods like this is completely realistic there are many instances in real life where people used each other to scale a small castle wall to sneak into a castle and kill some inhabitants. It is also easy to counter as well getting over the walls like that takes time and many attempts whilst the enemy is shooting you.

The fact the devs have done this is a great shame and IMO if they keep this in the game or don't come up with an alternative soon they have killed the Avalon server and any PVPers that want to come to the game which is the majority of players.


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Re: Current state of the game

Post by VindicteMortis » 27 Dec 2017, 15:47

Peegee77 wrote:There is absolutely NOTHING preventing you all from doing as much PVP as you want. You can form up, meet up and fight 24 hours a day. But that isn't actually what you want, is it? You want easy targets, people who don't have the skillpoints, the equipment or the inclination to fight. You want to gank people because you don't actually have the skills to explore the combat and formation mechanics that the game has given you.

Oh dear, how sad for you. You'll actually have to get out in the field and learn some proper PVP skills for a change.



Sorry for wanting meaningful gameplay content and emergent gameplay along with all the politics and intrigue that goes with it.

I certainly didn't sign up for a glorified duelling mechanic.

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Re: Current state of the game

Post by ObedSG » 27 Dec 2017, 15:50

+1 for claim raiding/looting in some form. Bark box ladders, boosting, & whatever people come up with next are just work-arounds for missing game mechanics.

On that note wattle & drying rack walls should be vulnerable.
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Re: Current state of the game

Post by Frontal » 27 Dec 2017, 15:53

Peegee77 wrote:There is absolutely NOTHING preventing you all from doing as much PVP as you want. You can form up, meet up and fight 24 hours a day. But that isn't actually what you want, is it? You want easy targets, people who don't have the skillpoints, the equipment or the inclination to fight. You want to gank people because you don't actually have the skills to explore the combat and formation mechanics that the game has given you.

Oh dear, how sad for you. You'll actually have to get out in the field and learn some proper PVP skills for a change.


I like killing my enemies. I can get pre-arranged meaningless pvp in mount and blade.
If I can't kill my enemies then what's the point really.
JHs are unplayable and have no element of surprise and will never be small scale.
IBs are a once in a while occurrence and again don't cater to any sort of small scale pvp.
There is no reason to roam the world so roaming pvp is non existent.
RIP small scale pvp.
AQ

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Re: Current state of the game

Post by Monco » 27 Dec 2017, 16:03

Zeran wrote:I agree this new "fix" of using people and horses to get over walls and the fact bark boxes can only be dropped in JH has completely ruined the game. There is now no motivation to log on properly apart from IB and JH but even they aren't a stable pvp environment atm.

The devs wanted to stop or at least lessen the use of macros however this is just encouraging it people can just afk macro in their base with no threat what so ever.

With what the devs are doing to the Avalon servers means that they have wasted their money on hosting the epeland servers because they are turning Avalon the supposed pvp server into a pve roleplaying server with no danger/threat for the player I bought this game because I wanted a challenge I didn't want to be safe sitting behind walls afking all day.

Using methods like this is completely realistic there are many instances in real life where people used each other to scale a small castle wall to sneak into a castle and kill some inhabitants. It is also easy to counter as well getting over the walls like that takes time and many attempts whilst the enemy is shooting you.

The fact the devs have done this is a great shame and IMO if they keep this in the game or don't come up with an alternative soon they have killed the Avalon server and any PVPers that want to come to the game which is the majority of players.


I 100% agree with this guy, this game is turning into a macro/autoclicker farming with only instanced PvP.

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Re: Current state of the game

Post by Ubaciosamse » 27 Dec 2017, 16:04

For quite a while now the game has been taking strange paths and no one knows the destination either, it is working VERY HARD on protecting the LOWEST part of its COMMUNITY, the ones that COMPLAIN the MOST and those that want every possible protection they can get to make the game MORE CASUAL, while the MAJORITY of the COMMUNITY that actualy is here for years that love the BRUTALITY and the PVP of the actual game have to SUFFER to these CAREBARES.

In short I agree with Agathius.

Make lif great again.

Kind Regards, UBA from Vanirs, been here since 2014 and very sick of how alot of things are handled (im trying to stay on topic, there are tons of other issues).
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Re: Current state of the game

Post by Bodil » 27 Dec 2017, 16:07

Most of my guild is playing other games rather then logging in because they have maxed out PVE and are bored.


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Re: Current state of the game

Post by VindicteMortis » 27 Dec 2017, 16:08

Bodil wrote:Most of my guild is playing other games rather then logging in because they have maxed out PVE and are bored.


same

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Re: Current state of the game

Post by Ubaciosamse » 27 Dec 2017, 16:09

Bodil wrote:Most of my guild is playing other games rather then logging in because they have maxed out PVE and are bored.

Alot do the same everywere. It is a fact.
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Re: Current state of the game

Post by Hodo » 27 Dec 2017, 16:34

This is the typical discussion in our discord at night with our PVPers.

"Hey wanna go raid that Chinese guild to the south of us?"
"Nah they will just sit behind their walls and shoot at us instead of fighting."

"Lets spar on the YO server."
"Yeah that sounds cool afterwords we can play a game of xxxx"

And shortly there after, we see less and less of them till they no longer login at all.


From 50 members active to less than 20... why because of bad PVP nerfing choices.
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Re: Current state of the game

Post by TheBruce » 27 Dec 2017, 16:40

Without raids, small scale pvp and reasons for the people to go around this game is going to die really fast once you release it on steam. People will rush and grind all day long their pve skills and once they've maxed them, if they don't have small pvp to do, they'll start loggin in only for jh or ib and the rest of the time they'll play other games. First week there were all day long 3.5k ppl online (and probably more but server couldn't handle more than that), now you go from 2k to 2.5k, 3k if you count also the epleland server. It's a 15-30-40% loss of players, and obt started less than 2 months ago. Do yourself some questions and then give you the answers.


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Re: Current state of the game

Post by VindicteMortis » 27 Dec 2017, 16:41


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Re: Current state of the game

Post by Grimmblut » 27 Dec 2017, 16:42

I remember when Bobik said during one of his AMA sessions on TS that he saw other MMO's die because of casual gamers getting ganked out of the game by "wolves" (meaning pvp-players). He said that he wanted to make sure that such things won't happen in LiF.

I ask myself if this isn't a case of wanting to eat the cake and keeping it at the same time.

LiF is not Rust and it's not supposed to be. Agathius however made a good point when he stressed the feudal aspect of the game. Single players or small groups, who are not able to defend themselves against larger groups, are supposed to become vasalls of other large groups that will protect them in exchange for taxes and feudal services (e.g. military service). That's pretty much the definition of a feudal system and at least from my point of view what I have expected of the game for years.

The idea is supposed to be that large groups protect small groups - who are a part of their kingdom - against other groups, be they small or large, from outside of their kingdom.

The direction in which LiF is going however is another one, and once again Agathius described it correctly: The devs try to protect small groups from large groups. Period. That, however, kills any incentive for both pvp- and pve-players to work together. When everyone is save from everyone else, and that's currently the case, then we don't have a MMO but a lot of single players who don't need to interact with each other. It saddens me to say this, but there are other single player games that do a far better job in entertaining people than a single player version of LiF will ever be able to.


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Re: Current state of the game

Post by Baratta » 27 Dec 2017, 17:24

I personally don't think the PVP is the issue at all. The issue is many newer players don't have housing yet and can spawn hours away from the place they live. Also the massive amount of skill loss is brutal if you don't have insurance.

The new players coming in can barley make it across a server tile let alone the entire map. I say let the the bark boxes and other ways to enter a keep work but reduce the skill drain and have an option to select a server tile to spawn in when you die.


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Re: Current state of the game

Post by bowlin12 » 27 Dec 2017, 17:31

I think there is 2 types of people that want the game to be more hardcore, those who are able to survive in this world but not necessarily want to destroy others. And those who care about nothing but killing players and destroying anything they've got. I have many friends spanning through titles like DF, MO, RUST, basically any full loot largescale pvp games and majority of them like blood for blood and just jump to the next new title that allows them to gank, grief, and destroy all in their path. Now this is good and dandy for them but I've seen to many games die out because casuals have no place to live. So these "fixes" are, hopefully, bandaids to keep the population living. The first few moments of the MMO had large raiding groups of people jumping into claims and killing anyone inside which didn't allow for a healthy population of smaller groups to sustain themselves. So some people might be part of small guild that go around and have fair fights or even outnumbered fights and get that "ive accomplished something" feeling and that is good, but the mechanics favor huge megazergs that go around and destroy anything in it's path.

Think about the living 30 minutes from a mega zerg, your first few weeks are great and safe while you build up your settlement with 10 or so friends. Now comes in the megazerg because they've eaten everything up to you and your choice is essentially to join or die. Well now because your walls mean absolutely nothing and your traps are easily thwarted because of janky placed sleeping bags your defenses are pointless. Not to mention if the system was still the way it was back at launch you wouldn't be able to log into the game as this small group because 24/7 raiding would be allowed and your settlement would become a killing pit.

Now I understand that having people on your claim that you do not want is a problem. As of now your only choice is to camp around their base and starve them out or wait till judgement hour and take anything out that is realm. Yes this sucks, but at the same time this is good for the game because it allows for big guilds to be forced to drop expensive siege totems to get rid of anyone which then allows for these big guilds to rather vassalize players and let them live but with tribute rather than doing more of a "join or die" style. On the same point this makes smaller guilds want to find common ground more often then just simply saying, because the mechanics don't easily support it, "fuck you lets go to war". This, in a way, is simulating the fear of death and the heavy cost that war would have.

I don't think this game was ever meant to be a PvP arena where you just go around killing people for a good ol time (which you can still do just not to the extent where you could play the game solely to kill people). This game is more like Wurm online or EVE. Not DF or MO. I recognize names here of people posting about wanting more PvP and it makes all too much sense.

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Re: Current state of the game

Post by Agathius » 27 Dec 2017, 18:02

No one said we want it to be an arena. The zerg is normal, it is the feudal aspect. What I - or what WE want is that it works the way it is upposed to work. Does not need to be Rust to achieve that, does it? Apart from that i do not see how the rest of what you said corresponds with the above and how it goes in contrast. Please explain further :D
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Re: Current state of the game

Post by Khonco50 » 27 Dec 2017, 18:16

All i here in this thread is, help i can't kill naked anymore cause they built a wall to keep me out and now they patched it so i can't climb over walls with my little gang of 5 people LOL

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Re: Current state of the game

Post by Agathius » 27 Dec 2017, 18:17

The other way, they build walls WITH gangs of 5 people and keep 300 man warbands outside safely forever :D
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