Life is Feudal Official Forum

[Iil]

We found a solution for the problem at our server by lowering the needed amount of flux for creating steel. We just changed the recipes in the database.

The new recipes are:

• 1 steel bar needs 1 flux instead of 6
• 1 steel ingot needs 2 flux instead of 12
• instead of 5 mortar you get 30 mortar for 1 flux

Everything else is unchanged.

We started our server today, so if you wanna join us and start on a new server, you can find us here. We're a german server, but everybody else is welcome, too.

The name of the server is:
[DE] Eiseninseln 24/7 Red.Stahlkosten(1 Flux/1 Bar) Start 9.10.

[Thylbanus]

We found a solution for the problem at our server by lowering the needed amount of flux for creating steel. We just changed the recipes in the database.

The new recipes are:

• 1 steel bar needs 1 flux instead of 6
• 1 steel ingot needs 2 flux instead of 12
• instead of 5 mortar you get 30 mortar for 1 flux

Everything else is unchanged.

We started our server today, so if you wanna join us and start on a new server, you can find us here. We're a german server, but everybody else is welcome, too.

The name of the server is:
[DE] Eiseninseln 24/7 Red.Stahlkosten(1 Flux/1 Bar) Start 9.10.

Good luck with that. That seems WAY too easy and will imbalance things, but good luck. I'd like to see what comes of that.

[Thylbanus]

If you make no difference between a little village of 3 tiny shacks and a fortified town with hundred of "real" houses with castles and all, you have a serious problem. Of course building the biggest constructions possible in the game is an important sign of progression, getting 120 hares and chikens for no reasons in your inventory is not. Moreover a builder have to build huge constructions if he wants to increase his last skill. I mean you cannot argue with irrational demands, if you want to increase your skills and/or build a nice looking little city you don't need one hundred snare traps every day but you need a lot of flux. And i think there is a reason if this thread is called "flux demand to high/production rate to low" instead of "it's too hard to make hundred of snare traps".
Then i don't have problems with all the systems, i have a problem with the alchemist.

This just shows that you don't get it. If it weren't for the hares and chickens you wouldn't have complex food for quicker learning nor light leather for more complex buildings and armor. You should really learn how all the pieces of the game interact before going off on them. Each skill tree is of VITAL import to a community. Because you can't see it doesn't make something invalid.

I never said hares and chickens were useless but nothing forces you to trap hundred hares and chicken everyday. You could have to trap some to increase your tailoring skill but when your skill is increased it's done. Then if you want to make complex food, well you must understand the best way to get chickens is not trapping them everyday but making them reproduce inside your coops. If you think the coops doesn't create new chickens faster enough, it's a problem with the coops and you should wait for an update and try to make some complex food with something else. You know i'm carpenter and a farmer so i know pretty well how it works. I even tried to be an alchemist to help our slave before writing on this thread (by the way crafting naphta is as boring as crafting flux).
You seem to enjoy a lot doing the most repetitive and boring task of the game but i don't understand why you want to keep it that way. If you enjoy the pain it's cool for you but i don't and i want this game as fun as possible.

It's no more boring or repetitive than any other part. That's what you miss. You clearly aren't speaking from experience, so it's a moot point discussing this.

[Jalpha]

Seriously, are you guys arguing against other people having fun playing this game? If you fine with how it works now, why you even bother to reply here? It's not going to get worse if it becomes more interactive and engaging.

You don't have to enjoy all aspects of the game. Personally I don't mind gathering herbs, and the things I'd like to see improved (like fleshed out tooltip info and an autostack option) do not inherently involve the ability to gather more flux in less time.

I would rather gather herbs in it's current state than ever again have to sort through the chickens and hares I caught from the sixty snares I made the other day. At least herbs can be stacked...

If there is some aspect of gameplay that you don't enjoy, nothing is forcing you to do it. Recruit someone who does enjoy it and do something different.

If you are having problems collecting enough flux right now then you are doing something wrong, and all of the attempts at explaining what that is have thusfar been ignored.

I don't want to play a game where gold coins fall from the sky every time I kill a monster, but I think that is the style of gameplay many gamers are used to nowdays.

[Viik]

Then you fail to see the difference between hard game and boring game or grind. There is nothing hard about getting flux it's just boring. I don't care if it takes much time as long as it's a variate process which engages your brain at least a bit. Good example is prospecting. Your argument about snares is a good one and that aspect of the game rather be changed as well. Do you realize that right now you technically trying to preserve a status quo in game-mechanics for unfinished game!
I understand that some of you really like this game, so do we, that's why we all here and we want to make it better. I don't see a reason why we should have any of the mechanics of the game to be boring.
You can have emergent gameplay which can be boring, as for example being a watchmen at remote castle, but I don't see any good reason for actual processes of crafting and gathering to be boring.

[Thylbanus]

Then you fail to see the difference between hard game and boring game or grind. There is nothing hard about getting flux it's just boring. I don't care if it takes much time as long as it's a variate process which engages your brain at least a bit. Good example is prospecting. Your argument about snares is a good one and that aspect of the game rather be changed as well. Do you realize that right now you technically trying to preserve a status quo in game-mechanics for unfinished game!
I understand that some of you really like this game, so do we, that's why we all here and we want to make it better. I don't see a reason why we should have any of the mechanics of the game to be boring.
You can have emergent gameplay which can be boring, as for example being a watchmen at remote castle, but I don't see any good reason for actual processes of crafting and gathering to be boring.

You fail to see the difference between your interest and disinterest. ALL of the classes are "boring." If you find it interesting, it's less boring. If it's not, well you think it's a grind. EVERYTHING is a grind. Interest is the difference. Jalpha illustrates this well.

Answer two things for me:
1. How many ingredients are there that have a Flux quality?
2. Time yourself (and only you) cutting 400 building logs for a wood house. How long did it take you?

[Otaku]

2. Time yourself (and only you) cutting 400 building logs for a wood house. How long did it take you?

I see where you are going with this, would only be a valid point if while attempting to cut building logs you are given boards,logs,billets,sticks and bark all randomly all with randomly assigned character specific usefulness.

I suggest as a possible fix while still keeping the mechanic largely unchanged, is to allow the herbalist to cultivate given herbs once found (in much the same manner as the farmer) Keep the properties random to encourage trading, keep the same mechanic for finding the herbs in the first place, and possibly place a larger "hit box" around the herbs to make them easier to click on.


On our server we have tried to get a Herbalist but nobody wants to go near the task, it is too tedious, random and difficult.
(yes I am aware of the Alpha state and am/can only comment on the current mechanic of herb gathering.)

We did have 3 people all working together attempting to gather flux for our building projects on our server, they have all since shelved the game because of sheer tedium, causing many others to stop playing due to a lack of being able to advance. Killing our ability to fully test (at least on our server) all current facets of the game.

We are all aware that the game was an Alpha and are all keen to test this game to its fullest extent to help make the full release as polished and wonderful as possible (we all love the game.) but we just cannot do it without flux and 3 people grinding for days on end to no avail quickly saps a persons resolve to continue.

[Thylbanus]

2. Time yourself (and only you) cutting 400 building logs for a wood house. How long did it take you?

I see where you are going with this, would only be a valid point if while attempting to cut building logs you are given boards,logs,billets,sticks and bark all randomly all with randomly assigned character specific usefulness.

I suggest as a possible fix while still keeping the mechanic largely unchanged, is to allow the herbalist to cultivate given herbs once found (in much the same manner as the farmer) Keep the properties random to encourage trading, keep the same mechanic for finding the herbs in the first place, and possibly place a larger "hit box" around the herbs to make them easier to click on.


On our server we have tried to get a Herbalist but nobody wants to go near the task, it is too tedious, random and difficult.
(yes I am aware of the Alpha state and am/can only comment on the current mechanic of herb gathering.)

We did have 3 people all working together attempting to gather flux for our building projects on our server, they have all since shelved the game because of sheer tedium, causing many others to stop playing due to a lack of being able to advance. Killing our ability to fully test (at least on our server) all current facets of the game.

We are all aware that the game was an Alpha and are all keen to test this game to its fullest extent to help make the full release as polished and wonderful as possible (we all love the game.) but we just cannot do it without flux and 3 people grinding for days on end to no avail quickly saps a persons resolve to continue.

That's all well and good, but you didn't answer number 1. The answer to that makes your point invalid.

[Kaltivel]

Remove flux from the recipe for mortar and make it so any metal can be used for any metal item except those specifically named or intended (steel pickaxe for example). There is no logical reason why I can only create a sickle or lock from steel.


Flux production itself is fine; it's the ridiculous requirement of specifically steel and only steel for a few key items that is the problem.

[Otaku]

That's all well and good, but you didn't answer number 1. The answer to that makes your point invalid.

Between 7 and 12 out of 67 herbs. So in a worst case: (correct my math if I am wrong as I am no genius)

you have a 7:67 chance of getting a "useful herb"
or
around 1 useful herb every half an hour of harvesting time (excluding time spent looking for herbs)

Therefore about 1 flux an hour

meaning 1 alchemist must harvest for 14 hours to make one steel ingot.

That point is moot when it is nigh impossible to find anyone willing to suffer the herb gathering drudgery in the first place. even 3 people collecting for a 6-8 hour period could not (in our case) come up with enough flux for one pesky little steel ingot (and as has been stated flux is not used in steel production.)


When I saw boards I get boards, when I mine iron I get iron, when I gather herbs I play a feudal slot machine.
You must agree that in the pursuit of realism this game is attempting cultivation of herbs is a must have mechanic.

[Otaku]

Remove flux from the recipe for mortar and make it so any metal can be used for any metal item except those specifically named or intended (steel pickaxe for example). There is no logical reason why I can only create a sickle or lock from steel.


Flux production itself is fine; it's the ridiculous requirement of specifically steel and only steel for a few key items that is the problem.

"Flux" is not even required to make steel in a Bloomery at any rate.

"In operation, the bloomery is preheated by burning charcoal, and once hot, iron ore and additional charcoal are introduced through the top, in a roughly one to one ratio. Inside the furnace, carbon monoxide from the incomplete combustion of the charcoal reduces the iron oxides in the ore to metallic iron, without melting the ore; this allows the bloomery to operate at lower temperatures than the melting temperature of the ore. As the desired product of a bloomery is iron which is easily forgeable, nearly pure, and with a low carbon content, the temperature and ratio of charcoal to iron ore must be carefully controlled to keep the iron from absorbing too much carbon and thus becoming unforgeable. Cast iron occurs when the iron melts and absorbs 2% to 4% carbon. Because the bloomery is self-fluxing the addition of limestone is not required to form a slag."

-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloomery

[Sunguardian]

I don't know if anyone has shared this yet, but I found a way to make herb gathering more efficient although still in a tedious way.

I found that finding all the herbs that spawned rather difficult to see sometimes, and especially at night so I figured out a good method that makes finding the herbs way easier.

What I did was plough or cover a 11x11 area so that fertile soil is the only thing visible, but keeping the very middle cube grassy. The reason it's so big is because once you have nature's lore up high enough you search for herbs up to 5 cubes away I believe. So now when you search for herbs they appear on dirt so you don't have to look through grass and on green grassy textures to find them.

Like I said it doesn't help the tedium of harvesting/sorting the herbs or making flux, but it atleast helps you find the herbs much more efficiently. Alittle off topic.

[Otaku]

Just turn grass off, much easier.

[Sunguardian]

That's no fun, takes away the spirit of ingenuity.

[Otaku]

That's no fun, takes away the spirit of ingenuity.

Herbalism is already a tedious enough grind fest why make it harder?

I enjoy every other process in this game and have enjoyed countless other MMO (which I wont list here) and find this Herbalism mechanic to be hands down the single worst process of primary resource gathering of ANY MMO I have played in the last 17 years.

Let us plant herbs!

[Thylbanus]

That's all well and good, but you didn't answer number 1. The answer to that makes your point invalid.

Between 7 and 12 out of 67 herbs. So in a worst case: (correct my math if I am wrong as I am no genius)

you have a 7:67 chance of getting a "useful herb"
or
around 1 useful herb every half an hour of harvesting time (excluding time spent looking for herbs)

Therefore about 1 flux an hour

meaning 1 alchemist must harvest for 14 hours to make one steel ingot.

That point is moot when it is nigh impossible to find anyone willing to suffer the herb gathering drudgery in the first place. even 3 people collecting for a 6-8 hour period could not (in our case) come up with enough flux for one pesky little steel ingot (and as has been stated flux is not used in steel production.)


When I saw boards I get boards, when I mine iron I get iron, when I gather herbs I play a feudal slot machine.
You must agree that in the pursuit of realism this game is attempting cultivation of herbs is a must have mechanic.

Odd. We have 6 herbalists and all of us have 11. If it was variable, you would think ONE of us would have a different number. Since I'm going with what I have confirmed, 1 in 6 makes producing flux possible every 3-5 minutes, or 12-20 per hour (once you figure out what ingredients make flux). Cooperation makes it go faster. I still don't see them problem, so I'm testing this on my own server (set to MMO standards) as well as a public server to find if this my experience maintains between different settings. Though as I see it now, people just have not played their herbalists properly.

[Otaku]

So as you have not provided any correction for my formula out side of some inputs I must take it that you believe it to be correct and will provide a corrected sum:

Spoiler

Taking the assumption that the number of flux bearing plants is 11

Working of the 8 second harvest time My herbalist has.
And assuming harvest time only again.

Odds of a favorable outcome 11:67

at 536 seconds to harvest 67 herbs

1 Flux bearing plant ever48.7272727272 seconds

2 Flux plants needed for a flux 97.454545454 seconds

or one steel ingot every 1364.363636 seconds 22 minutes.

With 11 plants your numbers are borne out, however I personally can only go on the 8 I have and the 7 my friend has.

Perhaps we can say that herbalism is not an overly tedious task if you are lucky enough to roll a high number of flux plants and quite time expensive if you do not?

Can you not agree that herbs should be cultivatable, as a level of realism is the stated intent of this game, and that this would be in line with that stated intent?
You have not answered this question I put in the last post and thought I should give you another chance to respond.

As an interesting aside at my quick count 20 people so far believe flux needs some form of change and 9 do not.

[Kaltivel]

Remove flux from the recipe for mortar and make it so any metal can be used for any metal item except those specifically named or intended (steel pickaxe for example). There is no logical reason why I can only create a sickle or lock from steel.


Flux production itself is fine; it's the ridiculous requirement of specifically steel and only steel for a few key items that is the problem.

"Flux" is not even required to make steel in a Bloomery at any rate.

"In operation, the bloomery is preheated by burning charcoal, and once hot, iron ore and additional charcoal are introduced through the top, in a roughly one to one ratio. Inside the furnace, carbon monoxide from the incomplete combustion of the charcoal reduces the iron oxides in the ore to metallic iron, without melting the ore; this allows the bloomery to operate at lower temperatures than the melting temperature of the ore. As the desired product of a bloomery is iron which is easily forgeable, nearly pure, and with a low carbon content, the temperature and ratio of charcoal to iron ore must be carefully controlled to keep the iron from absorbing too much carbon and thus becoming unforgeable. Cast iron occurs when the iron melts and absorbs 2% to 4% carbon. Because the bloomery is self-fluxing the addition of limestone is not required to form a slag."

-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloomery

I'm not disputing that "flux" shouldn't be required to make steel but the fact of the matter is that Life is Feudal is a video game and having charcoal + iron make steel would be way too easy. Like I said, it's not flux production that's the problem. The problem is the demand for steel; lessen the demand by fixing all metal item recipes to accept any metal (except things like the steel pickaxe) and you have a much more enjoyable game.


EDIT: Off-topic but why can't I make a hardened iron pickaxe like the steel one?

[Noaga]

Well six friends and I decided to all set down and work to gather herbs for flux. We spent a total of seven hours one evening to gather herbs. All we got for our efforts was a total of 73 flux. So for the next eight days we have spent a total of 339 hours of our time getting flux to only end up with 219 flux... Now every one has brunt out and gone on to other games again. An I pretty much thinking there is going to be a major issue with getting people to spend more effort on one thing to gather flux. So to my point of view this is going to be the breaking point of the game. Now if they allowed the farming of herbs or tending herb bush's in the forest and garden. Being that some herbs grow in different environments. To me a herbalist is a man that makes medicine for the wounded and sick. I don't see where the medicine man came into being the main pillar in development of building's for said village. An the fact that you need more than three to get any fair results is absurd. But this game is still alpha so things can change. So I guess I burnt 40 plus dollars on a game that I my never play again...

[Otaku]

The stated aim of this video game is realism.

therefor Steel made in a Bloomery would not require flux if the stated intent where to be adhered to.

[Otaku]

Perhaps we need a Dev to comment on this topic, namely:

Is there any plan to revisit the basic mechanic for herbalism? (outside of the mini-game)

After all this is the most viewed, most commented on topic in the feedback section.

[Thylbanus]

So as you have not provided any correction for my formula out side of some inputs I must take it that you believe it to be correct and will provide a corrected sum:

Spoiler

Taking the assumption that the number of flux bearing plants is 11

Working of the 8 second harvest time My herbalist has.
And assuming harvest time only again.

Odds of a favorable outcome 11:67

at 536 seconds to harvest 67 herbs

1 Flux bearing plant ever48.7272727272 seconds

2 Flux plants needed for a flux 97.454545454 seconds

or one steel ingot every 1364.363636 seconds 22 minutes.

With 11 plants your numbers are borne out, however I personally can only go on the 8 I have and the 7 my friend has.

Perhaps we can say that herbalism is not an overly tedious task if you are lucky enough to roll a high number of flux plants and quite time expensive if you do not?

Can you not agree that herbs should be cultivatable, as a level of realism is the stated intent of this game, and that this would be in line with that stated intent?
You have not answered this question I put in the last post and thought I should give you another chance to respond.

As an interesting aside at my quick count 20 people so far believe flux needs some form of change and 9 do not.

One steel ingot every 22 minutes. How is that a problem? That's 36 Flux every hour. So YOU proved my point for me. Thanks for doing the work.

As for the ratio of people who find it a problem, I find most people are pretty whiny when things aren't handed to them on a silver platter. Getting 36 Flux per hour is pretty good.

EDIT: Also,

The stated aim of this video game is realism.

therefor Steel made in a Bloomery would not require flux if the stated intent where to be adhered to.

Taking a look at the "continent" they made, that is pretty unrealistic, when it comes to the way worlds develop. So there are a few things that are stretched to fit into how things work in this world. Flux is one of them. Considering that many of the plant names are jokes, it's par for the course. Sinning Eagle and Night Light are pretty silly names for herbs.

[Otaku]

Yes I stated that the numbers bore out with 11 herbs (the number you provided), again I state I can only go with the 7 and 8 that have been discovered on our server.

Congratulations for pointing out the obvious.

Again I ask with the Stated Intent of the game being realism must you not agree a realistic mechanic of cultivating herbs would be in line with this Stated Intent?

intent
ɪnˈtɛnt/
noun
noun: intent; plural noun: intents

1.
intention or purpose.
"with alarm she realized his intent"
synonyms: aim, purpose, intention, objective, object, goal, target, end;

Just because 1 thing is not 100% realistic now does not mean it should not become so when the game leaves Alpha or is released. (i.e aim, purpose, objective, object, goal, target, end)

By your logic it is time to bring on hoards of skeleton warriors, dragon shouts and dragons because the herbs have silly names.

Why should this mechanic not change in some manner?
About 66% of people who have commented either way on this topic (20/29 based on a quick count by myself) believe that this mechanic could (or should) be better, these people are representative of the potential player base for the future MMO, to not to at least acknowledge the issue would be folly.

[Otaku]

Taking a look at the "continent" they made, that is pretty unrealistic, when it comes to the way worlds develop. So there are a few things that are stretched to fit into how things work in this world. Flux is one of them. Considering that many of the plant names are jokes, it's par for the course. Sinning Eagle and Night Light are pretty silly names for herbs.

You state all this yet you argue here:

weight-of-clay-tile-t3882/

That the laws of conservation of mass be observed albeit in a very simplistic manner.

Have you actually read this:

http://lifeisfeudal.com/game-info

Kind of destroys this statement:

So there are a few things that are stretched to fit into how things work in this world. Flux is one of them.

I put it to you that you are in fact being contrary for the sake of creating friction to no good end.

[Thylbanus]

Taking a look at the "continent" they made, that is pretty unrealistic, when it comes to the way worlds develop. So there are a few things that are stretched to fit into how things work in this world. Flux is one of them. Considering that many of the plant names are jokes, it's par for the course. Sinning Eagle and Night Light are pretty silly names for herbs.

You state all this yet you argue here:

weight-of-clay-tile-t3882/

That the laws of conservation of mass be observed albeit in a very simplistic manner.

I put it to you that you are in fact being contrary for the sake of creating friction to no good end.

You flatter me. I love when my fans follow me everywhere. Yes, the price of tea in China is too damn high!

[Otaku]

Simple minds, simple pleasures I suppose, I was in fact attempting to offer what I could to better this game when I came across your statement.

I see that you do not offer any explanation for your juxtaposition on the topic of realism, nor any constructive discussion on the topic of flux/herbalism and now intend to disregard you as a "troll."

[Jalpha]

If the difficulty inherent to the acquisition of steel is to be maintained whilst adhering to an element of realism then what option is there but placing a chance based calculation on the steel creation process.

Steel was not so common in the early feudal age because not many people knew how to make it. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not an astute history buff.

I'm all for making things more fun, but I disagree with making them easier. So if the system needs to be changed what are your suggestions for improving the system without simply making it easier while hiding behind an argument for realism.

[Viik]

I'm all for making things more fun, but I disagree with making them easier. So if the system needs to be changed what are your suggestions for improving the system without simply making it easier while hiding behind an argument for realism.

Some people asked for lowering requirement of flux in crafting indeed. But their reasoning is not to make it easier but less frustrating.
This profession seams off in comparison to the rest of game mechanics:
It takes about 1.5 hours or less to get 100 random quality logs and it scales linearly with amount of people working on it. In case of herbalism it get's progressively easier the more people you have working on it. Something is wrong with mechanics if you have to resort to create herbalist alts for half of your village, just to get flux in predictable manner.
It's like if you want to build a good quality loom but trees drop logs in completely random type and quality and then the same goes for boards and nail...

[Jalpha]

So far you have only compared this skill to logging and carpentry. Would you care to share your opinion of how Gathering compares to the grind for bone glue and flax?

[Viik]

Well, you need to grind for alchemy too. It's not as bad as grind for procuration but leveling up is one time thing. It's never the less frustrating to get flax seeds but after that you can farm it. You get plenty of other plants which are quite useful even at early stage of the village. I'm not saying it's not broken. Grind and boring clicking for random effect is not a fun gameplay. It's rather be addressed too.