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YES, I know, this will shock many of you, but I think skill lines should be flat removed. Don't get me wrong, not the skill themselves, but the fact that you have to level one skill up to go to the other.
On the peaceful tab, every skill should be independant. But, to prevent people from mastering too much, skill cap should be lowered to like 400, even 300. Imposed skill lines are stupid, I think. Why ? Because I don't want to be a chicken farmer to process leather, for example, or I don't want to be a miner to be a blacksmith.. skill lines will create themselves amongst communities, mainly depending on the population in one group of players who do trade : little communities would have to be jack of all trades, so they can provide their own wood to saw into planks, or they would have to provide their own flax to make their own basic cloth.. that's what will happen. Large communities who manage to run a city with a lot of specialised workshop will be rewarded by the fact that they should be amongst the only ones who can manage to make Q > 60 ~ items. Cities would be collections of people mastering their own little profession. That would bring a huge amount of trading, and cooperating. I see two drawbacks about the current system :
1 - People have to know how to more than decently make the basic materials they need for more advanced skill. That will make "lower" profession a lot less valuable, because, basically, you clients know how to do it too.
2 - Dumb lines. Chicken farmer to process leather ? People were making basic clothing out of leather before agriculture itself !
Now, you may think "Yea, but everyone is going to go for the high tier skills"
Well, if they wish, let them. But they will quickly see that it's not a good move. Why ? Because too little people would produce basic goods, the prices would rise, and there ; you make a lot less money for a profession you thought more "advanced".
Having this system would, as I said earlier, bring a lot more trade in the game.
Now, for the combat tab. It is a bit different. Yes, still remove all the skill lines.
I know, skill lines kind of make sense for some skills, like warhorse handling -> mounted combat. But since you will have to get up on a horse to practive mounted combat anyway.. And, again, "virtual" skilllines would still be there : a master mounted fighter with very low horse skill would be.. useless. But ALL the other lines should be removed, for a lot of reasons :
- It makes no sense you have to know how to use a particular kind of weapon to use a type of armor
- It makes no sense you have to know how to use a particular kind of weapon to use another
- It makes no sense you have to know how to use a particular king of weapon / armor for skills like warcry, battle preps..
- Being able to train in all kinds of weapons would facilitate new players arrival in a developed world.
- Being able to train in all kinds of weapons would make early game warfare more about axes and spears, and shields, and make the kind of
"technology" advancing make a lot more sense, and be a thing.
Oh, yea, NO, it would not allow to create "OP" combos. Why ? Because if there are OP combos in a realistic game, it is either a flaw of the game balancing (not the skill system), or it is a very costly equipment with a very hard and long training required. For example : archers in plate armor : they are already possible btw, but plate should give a malus to using bows and crossbows.. or even ranged weapons. helmets could hide some of your view, and gauntlets would make you take a lot more time to load in an arrow and shoot it.
As for armor skill themselves.. personally, I think they should be removed. Why ? Because.. you do know when you put an armor on a stomp, it gives it the same protection as it would give to you, right ? Armor skills should be removed and replaced by a unique skill : armor handling. it wouldn't have to be skilled up to unlock tiers of armors or anything, but having a high skill in it would take less stamina to move with it (a LITTLE less, it would still be more about strengh), but mainly would make you faster to get back on your feet after a fall if you're wearing heavy armor, it would diminish the animations / action speed malus.. that skill would be trained by doing combat, or even everyday action, wearing a more or less heavy armor.
To prevent people from too easily making tier 3 armies, higher than tier 1 armors should take a LONG time to make, and cost more, so when you see someone in tier 3 armor, you know he's not a nobody.
If you have any questions or want more details, don't hesistate to ask !
On the peaceful tab, every skill should be independant. But, to prevent people from mastering too much, skill cap should be lowered to like 400, even 300. Imposed skill lines are stupid, I think. Why ? Because I don't want to be a chicken farmer to process leather, for example, or I don't want to be a miner to be a blacksmith.. skill lines will create themselves amongst communities, mainly depending on the population in one group of players who do trade : little communities would have to be jack of all trades, so they can provide their own wood to saw into planks, or they would have to provide their own flax to make their own basic cloth.. that's what will happen. Large communities who manage to run a city with a lot of specialised workshop will be rewarded by the fact that they should be amongst the only ones who can manage to make Q > 60 ~ items. Cities would be collections of people mastering their own little profession. That would bring a huge amount of trading, and cooperating. I see two drawbacks about the current system :
1 - People have to know how to more than decently make the basic materials they need for more advanced skill. That will make "lower" profession a lot less valuable, because, basically, you clients know how to do it too.
2 - Dumb lines. Chicken farmer to process leather ? People were making basic clothing out of leather before agriculture itself !
Now, you may think "Yea, but everyone is going to go for the high tier skills"
Well, if they wish, let them. But they will quickly see that it's not a good move. Why ? Because too little people would produce basic goods, the prices would rise, and there ; you make a lot less money for a profession you thought more "advanced".
Having this system would, as I said earlier, bring a lot more trade in the game.
Now, for the combat tab. It is a bit different. Yes, still remove all the skill lines.
I know, skill lines kind of make sense for some skills, like warhorse handling -> mounted combat. But since you will have to get up on a horse to practive mounted combat anyway.. And, again, "virtual" skilllines would still be there : a master mounted fighter with very low horse skill would be.. useless. But ALL the other lines should be removed, for a lot of reasons :
- It makes no sense you have to know how to use a particular kind of weapon to use a type of armor
- It makes no sense you have to know how to use a particular kind of weapon to use another
- It makes no sense you have to know how to use a particular king of weapon / armor for skills like warcry, battle preps..
- Being able to train in all kinds of weapons would facilitate new players arrival in a developed world.
- Being able to train in all kinds of weapons would make early game warfare more about axes and spears, and shields, and make the kind of
"technology" advancing make a lot more sense, and be a thing.
Oh, yea, NO, it would not allow to create "OP" combos. Why ? Because if there are OP combos in a realistic game, it is either a flaw of the game balancing (not the skill system), or it is a very costly equipment with a very hard and long training required. For example : archers in plate armor : they are already possible btw, but plate should give a malus to using bows and crossbows.. or even ranged weapons. helmets could hide some of your view, and gauntlets would make you take a lot more time to load in an arrow and shoot it.
As for armor skill themselves.. personally, I think they should be removed. Why ? Because.. you do know when you put an armor on a stomp, it gives it the same protection as it would give to you, right ? Armor skills should be removed and replaced by a unique skill : armor handling. it wouldn't have to be skilled up to unlock tiers of armors or anything, but having a high skill in it would take less stamina to move with it (a LITTLE less, it would still be more about strengh), but mainly would make you faster to get back on your feet after a fall if you're wearing heavy armor, it would diminish the animations / action speed malus.. that skill would be trained by doing combat, or even everyday action, wearing a more or less heavy armor.
To prevent people from too easily making tier 3 armies, higher than tier 1 armors should take a LONG time to make, and cost more, so when you see someone in tier 3 armor, you know he's not a nobody.
If you have any questions or want more details, don't hesistate to ask !
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mattanjakos, omar_rolon_dx, henrylebichon0 and 123 others likes this post.
Comments (93)
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12Another great idea. The skill trees don't make sense and don't improve gameplay in any way. Scrap 'em. I would happily sacrifice a couple hundred skill points for the chance to be able to actually customize my template.
It's not so rewarding to spend hundreds of hours building a character that in the end is the exact same cookie cutter build as everyone else. I remember when I started playing UO so many years ago I was amazed at the freedom they gave you to create any character you want. My first character was a tamer/fencer with spears. An absolutely terrible build, but I had an incredible amount of fun nonetheless. Learning about the game and experimenting with different builds kept me playing for years afterwards. I hope LiF can keep me engaged for years to come as well. -
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8It is stupidly limiting I agree, everyone should be able to do everything but specialize into certin fields since obviously if the game is going for a realistic look its possible. "Oh look pritty leather in taning tubs, 2 bad im a blacksmith cant touch that...." it will reduce quality perhaps of things you get but still u can do it insted of going trough tons of same usless skills to the one u want. Same goes for combat "oh look a 2h sword 2 bad I cant even touch it to defend my poor life" etc. -
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1Totally agree that the skill lines are rubbish. Still there are some skills that in some kind depent on each other. For example if you are good at forging weapons you will have an advantage to forge other things.
So what about some kind of "skill field"? There you can learn everything whenever you want and every few points you invest in it give you a little bonus to every other skill in this field:Like Deantwo, flamingsoul65, Blackcolt and Soriki likes this post. -
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-6while I agree that the skill tree needs changing, I think the interdependencies are fine(ish) as is saying that I doo think that there needs to be a few changes to the combat tree
1. remove armour from the weapon trees, and give it a line of it's own.
shields - leathers - scale/chain - Plate. I mean it's silly that you need to learn an armour skill in order to learn weapon skills. most warrior's of the time are peasants and didn't Have any armour other than a skull cap and a (hopefully) large shield to protect themselves with.
2. 2 handed weapon tree should be moved to behind the corresponding single handed weapons. with Duel wielding 1 handed as the third step
3. Ranged combat line should be split into 2.
line 1 Brute ranged weapon's
Throwing Mass's (shot put, Hammer)
X-Bows
Rock throwing siege weapon operation (mule and oniger etc)
trebuchet's and other such extreme heavy weapons (Cannons ? ?) that could blow up in your face if you don't know what your doing.
line 2 Finesse ranged weapons
Slings
Simple Archery (light bows such as short bow and self bow)
Advanced Archery (Composite bows and longbows) which use a different but related shooting stile to simple archery
Heavy Archery (Arberlist and other such 'precision'/troop killer artillery)Like stewbailey likes this post. -
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5Yes. Please remove skill trees. They are pretty ridiculous and confining. This feature is NOT an appeal to prospective players.Like AsherMaximum, Svangr, Blackcolt and 2 others likes this post. -
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5I agree with the idea of removing the skilltree as it is now, while changing it would also be an option removing it is the easier way since you dont need to do any more balancing.
Also making the armor a new tree wouldnt make any sense at all, I dont need to know how to use a shield or leatherarmor to wear plate, since its a totaly different story how to use these kinds of armor.Like Soriki and alexgvarela94 likes this post. -
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-3i agree only i think the cap should be 450 or 500, plus 30 for pietyLike alexgvarela94 likes this post. -
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-9Removing the skill tree would be good for make skills more accessible and aid having small groups create some kind of settlement more quickly (even if it's low QL). In removing it I think something else interesting needs adding such as having an output quality multiplier for a skills based on related skills.
For example, making bows: If you have just bow crafting at 100 you can make ok bows, QL 33 or something. If you have carpentry and bow craft at 100 you can maybe make a better bow, maybe QL 66. If you have bow crafting, forestry and, carpentry at 100 you can make a 100 QL bow (you know how to build bows, how to best craft the parts for or take best advantage of how the parts of made, and how to get the most from the grain of the wood from knowing how the tree the wood comes from grows). The weighting would not have to be even or require 100 in the secondary skill(s) to get the full QL modifier that skill contributes, the values could all be stores in the database somewhere to be nice and Modder friendly.
Example crafting equation:
Bow QL = max( [QL contributed by materials] * ( max(bowcraft, [x]) * [a] + max(carpentry, [y]) * [b] + max(forestry, [z]) * [c] ), 100 );
Where a, b and c are values scaling the contribution of each skill, and x, y and z are values specifying what is the maximum value in a skill that still give a contribution to the output. The primary skill in this case bow craft probably wants to have x as 100.
If you want even more detail the crafting QL equation could be per item, not per skill. So a primary skill is needed to craft the item, then other skills can contribute to the output QL.
Apologies for spamming this detail here, but it's dependant on the existing skill tree being removed, as per this vote. (+1 this post if you want to see this posted as it's own feature to vote on).Like AsherMaximum and aydjile likes this post. -
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8I am no fan to just remove skill tree.
In my eyes best possible option is server checkbox (like we have Judgement hour Enabled/Disabled, Decay Enabled/Disabled etc...)
"Skill lines" Enabled/Disabled
If server admin decides he wants skills linkedlike now, he can, if decides free independent skills, he can. And player can choose which server is best for his enjoyment.
Remember, its Your Own, so developers should provide as much variability to server admins as is possible to create "His Own" rules for "His Own" server
. Like Hoshiqua, capitaniojr, Metal and 5 others likes this post. -
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4I completely agree with removing Skill lines, but I don't really support the lat part of your argument Hoshiqua because it seems like it is a different discussion.Like Oreios and alexgvarela94 likes this post. -
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12I agree with Hoshiqua. Removing the skill trees adds a lot of customization options to the player, and drives the economy in a more complex way. Cookie cutter characters are not valuable to players. Also, the economy is driven by quality already so no additional skills are needed to inforce this. For example, if I am a bowcrafter and I do not have the skills for gathering high quality boards or linen ropes; however, I do have the skill to make high quality bows, so my only option is to trade with a lumberjack or a rope maker to make my high quality bows. This drives the economy effectively and efficiently.Like Aniimosiity, Dextrome and Durka likes this post. -
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3Along with changing the skill lines. I thought that there might need to be specialties within many of the skills. Every blacksmith should not be able to make quality 100 anything. A blacksmith who makes farming supplies isn't going to make armor and weapons just as well. If we could have specializations that were logical such as that, it would make room for people to operate in a town.
You could go even further than this. Specializing in certain types of armor or weapons. If you need a scimitar, I'm the best blacksmith in town for that. But my colleague here actually makes the best knight swords. These specializations could go for many classes and could be made logical with different tiers. Even farmers who raised cows, sheep or pigs their whole lives would be specialized and raise better quality animals. So, farmer>animals>pigs, or Blacksmith>weapons>axes>war axe. It adds the possibility of extra tiers to help differentiate and expand the need for more people in a society at its highest levels.Like capitaniojr, Deantwo and Aniimosiity likes this post. -
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1While i compleatly agree that skill trees should be removed, I compelatly disagree that the skillcap should be lowered...
Mainly because forexample if we take a miner. You need to have prospecting, mining and terraforming to be able to mine, thats allready all 300 points spend.
And im sure we all agree that terraforming is one of the most boring jobs in the game and mining is basicly just different from of terraforming.
So as a miner all you would do is terraforming... and after doing few weeks of nothing but terraforming most people will get bored.
Thats why we need to have enough points so that we can get few different things to do so that we dont get bored by repeatedly doing same thing over and over again. -
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1I agree with the OP. some of the skill tree progressions simply make no sense.
I like the way that separate skills progress, but the trees for me, limit the game,
To me it is illogical that i'd need to know 2hd swords to wear plate, or I need to know how to use a crossbow before I can use a bow. There are a few that do make sence, namely warhorse line (with the exception of the chainmail requirement) and perhaps the construction tree line. Im not advocating them and to be blunt I think the idea is broken. -
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-8What needs to happen is as they continue to develop the game, each person at the beginning needs to pick the skills when they create their character or each character has a set skill line. I am for choosing skills when you create your character. Each person has basic survival skills so they won't die. Such as fishing hunting farming....etc but then like the original post says there are some skills I will almost never use because I don't want them. This would also increase trading/fighting in game because if you did not have some one as a part of your group that had say tanning skills for clothing you would either have to trade for it or kill. But having to use my skill points for things I don't want it is stupid when there is a cap. On the flip side the skill cap in real life is much larger than this game so why not increase the skill cap. I can tan hide hunt game fish build masonry sew shoot a bow fight with an axe or sword forge metal and a number of other things that this game has skills for so there is no reason why I couldn't actually learn the rest and more so why the cap. The reason you need other people is because it goes faster not because you couldn't do it yourself. -
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4No, I don't think you should have to "choose" skill lines when you create your character. Remember that each characters will have to be paid for, and I don't think most people will enjoy buying a new char just because they want to re-organise their skill lines. Remember, this post is about REMOVING any CONCEPT of skill lines in the game, except for those that REALLY make FULL sense like the one described in the post, and that wouldn't even be mandatory for "virtual" skill lines to still exist.Like JohnHunter, Aniimosiity, L0ngster and alexgvarela94 likes this post. -
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0I agree, no skill lines,
No armor skill,
About skillcap : I think it should be possible to learn/improve more skills when you reached skillcap but it would be exponentially harder. For example, learning till 300 skills points will take normal time, learning till 400 double time, till 500 four times longer, till 600 eight times longer etc. (It's just an axample that can be better balanced.)Like Aniimosiity likes this post. -
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0BUMP. I'm hearing more and more people having the same opinion as us about skill lines.
Some people are telling me there is a balance logic behind skill lines, especially combat's. Well, if you need such things to make weapons that were ALL used in the middle ages be used by players and not be OP, it is a flaw in the game design.. no weapons were OP, or if they were, they were expensive / hard / long to make, and required the user to be dedicated to the use of this weapon in his everyday life so he could use it effectively.
Medieval battlefields were composed mostly of padded armor pole weapon users (billhooks, poleaxes, spears..), and only rich knights / generals / lords / kings would be using swords, plate armors..
The skills lines will kill that. Swords are going to be used by EVERYONE who wants to learn to use other 1 handed weapons, and plate armors too since they are so easy and inexpensive to make. -
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154 votes so far.. it is huge for such a game changing suggestion ! Keep it going guys !
Also, if you guys have more ideas, or disagree with something, don't hesitate to post it here ! I will gladly answer, and if you make real good points about something, I may add it or remove it if it is already here (altough I will keep the main ideas, as to not "deceive" those who already upvoted this suggestion).Like Aniimosiity likes this post. -
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0You do have a (not very correct) point on the limitations but your suggested cure is worse than the illness.
Skill trees are there to prevent a player from being a blacksmith - tailor - alchemist - engineer. Lowering the cap lowers fun and things you can do, it is a limitation too, and moreover doesn't solve the above problem.
Also your point is incorrect because you CAN play a blacksmith without being a miner. I have rarely seen in my settlements the blacksmiths go mine for ore themselves, since they're busy enough with the forge. Also a dedicated miner will raise the skill to 100 while a blacksmith only needs 60. So what is the point? Looks like the aim is to craft whatever you want, but this would limit player interaction (in the way Hoshiqua described just above) sure you need to stock up resources from others but that is a seldom interaction vs a continuous and communitarian one. -
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2Thank you for your reply..
First off, I'd like to say, when I use the example of the blacksmith having to be a miner also, I don't mean he has to do it himself all the time, but I meant he has to spend precious skill points on something he will never do, because you're right, blacksmiths rarely go mine themselves, and it will be even rarer when MMO comes out, with ressources being regional. But removing the skill lines would allow you to be a blacksmith directly, without having to go learn to be a more than decent miner (which 60 skillpoints is, basically) before doing that, as long as there is ore available mined by someone else.
Second, yes, people would be able to go for engineer blacksmith architect etc.. but what would be the point ? You would be spread out over many very high tier skills which require tons of very different ressources. It would be more a pain than anything being all of that, because it is a lot less manageable. Let players do that if they will, they will soon find out that they are way better off focusing on one type of activity. But if they are willing to do all the work of organisation and collection needed to do all those advanced crafts, I don't see the problem..
Finally, the aim is not to craft what you want.. where did I say that ? No, lowering the skill cap wouldn't change much about what you can do : in the end, a lot of your skillpoints are used to raise skills you never use, because of the skill lines logic. Having no skill lines, like stated in the suggestion, would bring a lot more interactions between players, if you also lower the cap a bit. Why ? Because it will become a NECESSITY in order to make high quality products ! In most skills, you need to have 100 skillpoints in order to make QL 100 stuff, right ? Well, with a bit lower skill cap, you could level up a few skills to 100 if you wanted, but it would leave you with very little variability in what you can do : you would rely on other players to provide the ressources needed, and thus this would work only in big settlements (which makes sense !), while little groups will still have virtual "skill lines", because, skill lines or not, you can not be a carpenter without some way to get wood.
And that, my friend, would at least keep the amount of interaction needed alive, if it does not increase it, and would allow for much more freedom of activity. Don't tell me there is a lot of diversity, especially in early game.. it's always the same, boring stuff : get forge, get coops, get leather, get weapons, get walls -> fight. While this would allow for a free progression that would only be limited by the available ressources, which makes MUCH, MUCH more sense than the current system, don't you think ? I would also allow a lot more early PvP : spears and axes and clubs are craftable much quicklier than swords (which makes sense, also), and thus, the first few days, if not the first week, would mostly be composed of axe and spear fighting, instead of nonsense pitchfork.
Sorry for the wall of text, I hope you understand my point.Like MarcCeras and Aniimosiity likes this post. -
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0I do Agree in some aspects, and disagree in others...
I think, it is correct, that you should not need a former Skill to master a new one, if ther is a TEACHER (the system is planed as it seems, but not implented yet). If you are lerning by doing without a teacher, you need steps before you can even get the idea... otherwise you are a Genius... So chars with Int. 50+ are okay :-P
However, the Skilltree needs some polishing. It makes indeed no sense at some point, why to master something to do something else... Like knowing Forestry to be able to smak down a Tree and take it apart...
On the other hand, is the Tree for Architekture valid, as well Alchemy.
Armore skills should not be removed, because there is more to it, than simply wearing it. You need to know how to move, where there are weakpoints and so on. But instead of simply improving your own stats by mastering it, it should also allow you to reduce the enemys Armor of the skilled typ, since you know where it is weak and so on...
All together, the skill-tree is in my opinion more like a stopper which should prevent to fast growth of a big society... Since you can "forget" your skillpoints, it is not, that you are too much handicaped by it (even thought I am not sure how far you can forget... at least down to 30 should be possible).
That's it for my penny of thought. -
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0Thank you for your reply !
Why would you need a teacher to learn how to process leather, whereas you wouldn't need one if you are a good chicken farmer first ? Oo
That is the kind of nonsense that the skill tree brings. Yes, I know, some skill lines make sense, but.. not so much that they should be kept. As I said in the main post, VIRTUAL skill lines will still exist.. just try, try to build a castle wall without having first built more basic infrastructure found in the previous construction skills ! While if you arrive in an already advanced society.. I don't see why you need to know how to build houses to build castle walls.
Also, why would the devs want to slow the players down to build "big societies" with skill trees ? Oo I mean you can just make construction longer, more costly.. so you need more players to do it, or you need more time.
As for the armor skills.. Armors are made so you can move almost as if you didn't have one. Yes, I know, Hollywood crap made all of us think armors are hugely heavy and they prevent you from moving normally.. but that's false (To a certain extent) ! And certainly not to the point that you have to have taken loads of hits on an armor to know how to even wear a royal one xD
But armors do prevent you from recovering from attacks, falls.. as fast as you could without one, because they add energy to whatever movement you perform. But if you know how to optimise the time it takes you to do that while wearing plate armor let's say.. it's the same thing with the other armors.
But just forget the idea of removing the armor skills.. I will make another suggestion for it. If only you could edit your suggestion.. -
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0Sorry for the double post.. I forgot your point about armor weaknesses. Well, it's not that hard to learn where the weaknesses are, but it's harder to actually make your weapon hit in those weaknesses
And that should be up to player skill (since armors in the game really have weak points, I think). And even if there would be a skill to learn where those weaknesses are, they certainly shouldn't block you from wearing royal plate on day 1.. I mean, why the f*ck not ? If your guild is willing to trust some guy that has no skill whatsoever in combat, and maybe also a totally new guy in the guild, with a royal plate.. their problem. Plus you still will have to grind your strenght so you can have proper speed and not tire yourself in 3 seconds. -
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-1I agree that the skill tree doesn't work very well and should be different but there is one issue with your idea. Those of us who bought the game for the single play aspect of it. We are a minority but that is why I bought the game and unless they offer serfs to make up for that skill cap your proposing then I cannot do anything but run around and gather. -
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0Well, this suggestion is mainly for the MMO or at least YO's default settings. But YO servers will still have the ability to be modded and have a higher skillcap. As for MMO, it is intended that you can't do much by yourself.Like Aniimosiity likes this post. -
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0It would not surprise me in the least to find that over time the skill system is readjusted and/or changed entirely. Most games that have 'skill trees' or 'skill lines' generally do change slightly or even drastically after players have had time to really get a feel for what works and what doesn't. Especially where LiF:YO is somehwhat of a jumping point for a later MMO version of the game, these earlier skill sets are there to reduce exploitation from players and yet still allow for a unique play style. Working out the logistics to how skills are used/obtained will need balancing when the game has many more bugs worked out and most features have been added IMO. -
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-1I kind of have to disagree. If people can just skip certain skills and go straight to the one they want. Than who will be the peasent lol? Who will be the lower class to support an empire? Everyone going want be a big badass and not bother with small roles they find useless, since they can skip it and get what they want. -
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-2That_Raider wrote:
Also I know you already mention my point. But not everyone will learn or realize. Many people will be stubborn they pick something that isn't in high demand and keep the skill in hopes they'll be needed. Or they'll just rage quit like a baby, cause they spent all that time for a useless skill.
I kind of have to disagree. If people can just skip certain skills and go straight to the one they want. Than who will be the peasent lol? Who will be the lower class to support an empire? Everyone going want be a big badass and not bother with small roles they find useless, since they can skip it and get what they want.
I mean, not everyone going be like "I realize i am wrong and going to work on the lower tier class and drop my higher tier class that I have spend hours grinding" -
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2Well, as I said before..
If no one does the basic jobs, then the price for those product is going to rise hugely, making the peasants the rich class, and the crafters the poor class, kinda
And that's one more benefit of removing skill lines.. that kind of dynamism ! Much more different professions..Like Aniimosiity likes this post. -
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2I have to agree, get rid of the tree. I want to be a ranger type who lives in the woods and lives off the lands. I can't do this because I have to have a skill (can't remember) before I can get leather armor, then I have to get leather armor before I get bows and arrows. This make it stupid and does not work for me. Also, I don't want a horse so why do I need to have this skill in order to get to other skills that I do want and make no sense that they are in the category for needing a horse first.
Get rid of the skill tree and give us the basic survival skills so we don't die, but let use decide how we want to play our characters.Again take a look at Skyrim, they actually have a pretty good system for being a relatively older game.Like Aniimosiity and Dextrome likes this post. -
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0I can only agree, at the least, the skill prerequisites that make no sense at all (most of them) should go away, and any dependanycy should be reorganized.
At least for the peaceful skills it would make a lot of sense. That a master mason has to understand a bit more about many things (Terrain, Construction, ...) is fine, but a Tanner does not really have to have knowledge of farming or chicken growing. -
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0I would like more skills to this new tree and a way for the adicted players to not be fully upgraded by the time i get to play the game. The server i was on had the skills learning curve way too easy...so everyone was fully upgraded. My clan mates would ride their horses and maically appear in the other side of the map in an instance while i had to waste half an hour and half of my stamina. -
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2One additional benefit would be, that if the Skilltrees got removed, that the developers could implement new skills without thinking about a whole new tree.Like Aniimosiity likes this post. -
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1Totally agree, that there shouldn't be any dependences, synergy maybe, but not dependences.
I haven't grow a plant in my life (at least not a plant that I can talk about), nor I have grown an animal (dog doesn't count, right?) still I'm pretty decent cook. I don't even know how sling looks like, still I know how to handle a crossbow. Heck! My friend's twelve years old daughter can hit soda can from fifteen yards with a crossbow. Adult-size crossbow.
I can't tell for sure, but I strongly believe, that most of medieval blacksmiths never held a pickaxe, unless they were tasked to (re)forge it.
It's just a couple of examples, but I suppose it's more than enough.
P.S. I haven't dug into DS's DB yet, but AFAIR it's possible to unleash skill dependences. Gonna try it on next restart. -
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1The problem is that for example a farmes is already a cooker... or do tailoring.. Why?? Why a farmer is doing armor? I tried explain that with my mind.
"maybe they was trying to give woman a small role in the farmer life, woman works out in their terrytories and after whey come back to home, doing dress and armor"
The problem is that. All jobs are insanely united... Why?
Me and my group have counted like... 25 different jobs?? All united with a mad skill tree.. -
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-2People are mostly wasting time with this entire suggestion, it is one of the core game mechanics, it may be changed in the future but complete removal of the skill tree for YO version of the game is not going to happen. Speacialy that some people that talk here barely even play the game anymore and keep suggestiong outrageous things and changes that req a change of the core of the game. -
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0Completely disagree, this would destroy the game. You have to play in big teams here, and the MMO. If you implement this, the leaders and their close friends will do all the fun skills, like smithing and forging, while the beginners and new players have to do the shitty jobs like mining, and thus lose the fun quickly. If this gets implemented, I probably would stop playing. -
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2I agree on this suggestion, it's pretty sound, especially if it's a toggle so different servers can choose.
Want to play a hunter (with or without friends) in a camp - just remember you can't cook your game until you've planted enough apple trees, shoveled enough dung and made enough rope. Only then are you learned to comprehend the masterful skill of roasting beef over fire.
In all seriousness though I do like that the devs take time to ask for our opinion, hopefully they'll look into this suggestion. -
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0I agree that the skill lines aren't realistic, for both the peace and the war skills. I also like the idea of armor handling type skill instead of each armor. (have you ever fenced in armor? )
Instead of getting rid of the skill lines altogether though, what if everyone could reach a certain skill level, say 60 as all individual skills. Then there might come into play some prereq. For instance your squire has always handled everything about the warhorse on day to day, but you get on that horse long enough to trot it through your training course. You might be able reach 60 skill, but until you really have that connection with horse, are you going to reach 100?
Another idea: schools of mastery. Say you want to be great at 2 handed long sword skill. You work your way up to 60 skill on your own. You find Fiore de Liberi's master school of defense, who is teaching mastery of the two handed sword. But before he will teach you anything about the two handed sword, he requires that learn hand to hand an knife skills. You get that out of the way at a basic level and master 2 handed long sword, then drop out of school before ever going on to learn anything about spears.
What's great about the schools of mastery option, is that it really opens up the possibility of specialization that I previously saw mentioned in this thread. If you learn 2 handed sword skill at Fiore's school, you wind up with different master combos than if you studied at master school following the teachings in I.33, etc. -
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3I have said this for a long time. Ive played UO since its release and the versatility in that game is what kept it popular. I really hope LIF implements this feature. You said everything very well. If a guy wants to rush making plate armor good for him....but he needs quality ore and tools. If a guy wants to make siege items good for him...but he needs the wood and tools, Or castle builder...needs stone and carts. This should be the first thing they implement at least in some form of beta client to see how it goes. I think that would make the game more popular and open up a plethora of trade and options. Because you are right, After some time in a game trade is useless. Most servers have a skill cap of 1200 usually 600. So with a small group of 6 or 7 people you have everything covered. Every major job is now being optimized. Sure they cant make high quality items but its ok cause they can use that skill. If every skill was a standalone skill it would make every skill as important as the next. Trade would be better cause even though you have a 6 man group you need to trade with that other village to build you a road cause they have a guy who trained it. Best idea ever. Please lets get this going. -
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0I 100% agree on this! This would open many more options and specialties.bizaroblyatt08 wrote:
Along with changing the skill lines. I thought that there might need to be specialties within many of the skills. Every blacksmith should not be able to make quality 100 anything. A blacksmith who makes farming supplies isn't going to make armor and weapons just as well. If we could have specializations that were logical such as that, it would make room for people to operate in a town.
You could go even further than this. Specializing in certain types of armor or weapons. If you need a scimitar, I'm the best blacksmith in town for that. But my colleague here actually makes the best knight swords. These specializations could go for many classes and could be made logical with different tiers. Even farmers who raised cows, sheep or pigs their whole lives would be specialized and raise better quality animals. So, farmer>animals>pigs, or Blacksmith>weapons>axes>war axe. It adds the possibility of extra tiers to help differentiate and expand the need for more people in a society at its highest levels. -
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3dadieter wrote:
Completely disagree, this would destroy the game. You have to play in big teams here, and the MMO. If you implement this, the leaders and their close friends will do all the fun skills, like smithing and forging, while the beginners and new players have to do the shitty jobs like mining, and thus lose the fun quickly. If this gets implemented, I probably would stop playing.
You serious? The fun skills?..Who determines what is fun? I love terraforming! Id make a terraforming guild in what ever town I settle in, Id charge a lot because no one else does it, Id take that gold and over throw the people who have the "fun" skills. Each skill should be a job. Every job has to be filled to make other jobs usefull. Whats the point in being a great smith or excellent at forging if you don't have the materials. Sound to me, those guys who provide the materials are more useful then those who can forge -
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1I actually don't understand why this isn't already just an option when starting a server in LiF:YO.
(Also why can you change the skillcap, but you can't change statcap...?)
These are easy-to-add features which shouldn't require much programming at all (just remove the skillgain dependency check when skilltrees are disabled, and just turn the stat cap into a variable instead of a constant... et voila) -
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-4This is creally a person playing on a 3000 point server that does not understand having to choose what to learn and being strapped for points. yes i want a tech tree cos i want to see people that have put in the time to level up the skills and learned how to use each one. This post is like saying in world of tanks let every one just buy T10. they would not know what there doing or feel any sort of achievement when they drive it. what do you want to put up for a vote next creative mode. so you don't have to build the small stuff to get the big stuff?? -
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2I play on a 1000 skillpoints server, so you can't do everything. Also I used to play the MMO pre alpha tests which had 1* skill multi and 600 skillcap and almost no one to help you in kilometers so don't lecture me on difficulty.
Skill lines only bring bottlenecks to groups' progress, with bottlenecks such as animal lore or herbalism. Those are neither enjoyable, nor do they feel rewarding when you get past them, because it was just a pain in the ass. Beside, as I said in the main post, most skill lines make no sense whatsoever. People that are here for immersion aren't really.. satisfied by this.
To counter for the fact that players will be able to just "rush" whatever job they want to do, you can just lower the skillcap to make up for the the points that won't be spent anymore in "useless but required" skills.
As for time, well, just lower the skill multi. I mean, jeez, was it realy that hard to find a solution to those problems ?
Beside, skill lines make it easy and unpunishing to choose a certain profession. While here, with no lines to guide you, and hard to train skills, you would have to choose VERY carefully, and as such it will bring either a lot more specialization = more trade, or more diversification of skills one player has, depending on the group's population (as such, only big groups that can afford to feed and equip people who specialize in one or two skill will be able to have master craftsmen).Like Dexploratio and Durka likes this post. -
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1L0ngster wrote:
This is creally a person playing on a 3000 point server that does not understand having to choose what to learn and being strapped for points. yes i want a tech tree cos i want to see people that have put in the time to level up the skills and learned how to use each one. This post is like saying in world of tanks let every one just buy T10. they would not know what there doing or feel any sort of achievement when they drive it. what do you want to put up for a vote next creative mode. so you don't have to build the small stuff to get the big stuff??
You're not making any sense... "a person should have to go through leveling up that one skill they'll never use before they should be allowed to level up that other skill they do want to use, because otherwise they haven't put in enough time" - that is what you're saying right? So the solution to your problem with this suggestion is just decreasing skillgain... right? *confused*
PS. There are no little skills or big skills (I'm referring to your analogy of not having to build small stuff before building big stuff), there are no good skills or bad skills... there are (or should be) only choices. -
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1honest i agree with this most.
- It makes no sense you have to know how to use a particular kind of weapon to use a type of armor
- It makes no sense you have to know how to use a particular kind of weapon to use another
- It makes no sense you have to know how to use a particular king of weapon / armor for skills like warcry, battle preps..
- Being able to train in all kinds of weapons would facilitate new players arrival in a developed world.
- Being able to train in all kinds of weapons would make early game warfare more about axes and spears, and shields, and make the kind of
makes no sense to have use a certain weapons for certain armor. lol -
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0It would be nice if they did this as it would diversify play styles. However, some things would need to be balanced considering that this would enable people to get a hold of bows much faster then melee weapons, and would allow most people to get themselves fully equipped with armor and weapons much faster then they should be able to. -
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0While I agree with a lot of things, some of this is flatly wrong. There is a massive difference between someone who is 'capable' at wearing armor and someone who has never taken a hit running around in plate. You get used to turning your body into and out of blows depending on what's coming for you and you get much better at not flinching every time something grazes you. Plus, armor is often about deflection, not outright ignoring damage. A stump can't move, you can easily aim for a stump's "weak points" but a human being? No. -
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0I agree that most skill lines are flawed and should be either removed or adjusted severely.
Though on your bottom part you are speaking nonsense. I do think we should have different armor skills because if you wear leather armor you get more comfortable in you guess what 'Leather Armor'. So having just 1 armor skill would make people wear the lightest armor all the time so they progress their skill in order to wear heavy plate armor efficiently in the future.
And you could counter my argument by saying that heavier armor should increase the skill faster, Yet I would disagree again because then you would have to wear plate armor as an archer before you see any real skill progress.
Please remove it from this discussion as it is completely irrelevant to the skill lines discussion. -
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-1Well, I would like to, as it isn't my exact vision on things now, but alas, you cannot edit posts in the suggestions part of the website. I guess it's made to prevent abuses.
But I would argue that, yea, you would get more comfortable. But the skill shouldn't completly OFFSET the armor's amount of quality points over your skill, it shouldn't reduce the weight by a factor of three and it shouldn't prevent you from wearing heavier armor while you're not the most used to this kind of armor.
The skill has to be trained in a different manner, or affect different things. -
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0bump
it would also improve Roleplaying as much more individual careers would be possible... but still with a skillcap, so superheroes are avoided...Like Dexploratio likes this post. -
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0I don't want to see the skill points lowered but I would like to see most of the chains broken. I think natures lore chain minus healing is a good chain and makes sense, I think the horse riding chain should be war horse handling, lancing, then heavy horse handling minus mounted fighting mastery and chainmail. The only other chain that maybe makes sense is engineering line.
I don't agree with removing armor skills. Cause what the op says is true it provides the same protection, however learning to move in the armor takes practice and adjustment.
I think as the op suggests that a debuff to archery or throwing weapons for that matter in heavy armor would keep the archers (especially the serious and dangerous ones) away from heavy armor. -
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1Okej i think this is just damb if you would like for it to happend you just should rebuild whole skill system. So it would take longer to become blacksmith.
1. 1st blacksmith is behind all the skills coz you need 2 dig iron on the start so you have it to start using blacksmith skills lol.
2. If you have city/village You have school for shure with will fix your problem with skills coz the blacksmith can teach ppl in school and they will get blacksmith skills only.
So i do not see the reason for it wo be changed. -
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1More than a year passed. When is a change like this going to be implemented? I'm getting tired of raising crossbows to use bows (which makes no sense in any way); cleaning dung to be able to tan leather; learning sword to use shields and learning ridiculous amounts of skills to learn how to shout insults.
I love the game, how it looks, how it works, what you can do... but this is beyond bad. You dont need a 1 million dollar budget to change this, and this is not some aesthetic feature of the game.Like anton.dumov likes this post. -
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0Logically this is brilliant in terms of game meta this is bloody horrible the point of skill trees is to make sure people work together and in the combat tree would you rather someone who would specialize in a longbow or someone who puts 100 archery 100 plate 100 1 hander 100 shield or 100 2 hander 100 battle cry it would be bloody chaos in a fight -
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0Absolutely agree!
And one more: without skill tree it can be a multilayer to learning. For example: you want to learn Healing.
If you have no another skills - you will get 1 experience point for action.
If you have 10 Herbalism - you will get 1,01 experience point for action and healing will be 1,01 stronger.
And YES it should be logical! -
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0Fighting in a plate armor is different than fighting in a leather one.
Individual armor skills are still required, with it's own difficulties.
Some professions should be related, what so ever.
Ok, chicken and leather is absurd, but how about horse handling and heavy horse handling? Medicine and Alchemy (this 2 was heavily related in the past)?
Some skill requirements should exist, but not this hard solid tree. And yeah, need to learn crossbow before bow is just stupid. -
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0I 100% agree with this thread, I am seriously planning to buy this game after a week or so when I get back home from vacation and one of my main concerns is current skill tree.
I havent read this thread completely because of my limited time on internet here so I post my point already;
Basic skills and "elite/professional" skills should be divided;
I am currently residing at my family's cabin and I have had my part in building this, sawing planks, slicing them to wanted size, putting stuff together to form structures etc. While spending time here I have fished, prepared those fishes etc. We have small field of potatoes and onions here and I have made a simple knife at school etc. However, this variety of skills I have gathered at my freetime have no effect on me working on my profession and I wont forget any of them while I become better and better at my work.
So, what I am trying to say that it makes no sense that becoming a great blacksmith able to make platebodies wouldnt be able to take care of himself at wild, catch fishes. Everyone should be able to chop down a tree, but professional lumberjack should be much faster at it. I think there should be plenty of basic skillpoints, but when you reach certain point and can be called professional, it would start using elite skillpoints that are limited. Ofcourse this too is somewhat unrealistic, but complete realism would not be fun on game.
Sorry if this has been adressed already and sorry for bad english. -
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0WoW gold is an important resource that allows players to purchase items, vehicles and other in-game services. With gold, it will be easier for you to progress in the game and experience everything it offers. For example cheap wow gold can be difficult to obtain, especially for new players. Buying WoW gold allows you to skip the chore and jump right into the interesting parts of the game.
