Life is Feudal Official Forum

[Arrakis]

Have (for instance) a team consisting of berserkers using warcries that will serve as support to your armored archers. Tactics and coordination are everything. Make the best of your team abilities to put your enemy at disadvantage. And remember that especially when you will take part in massive battles in the mmo.

[Stormsblade]

Regarding arrows damage - It's mostly fixed and bodkin arrows won't be so powerful anymore

As for general topic of archers being OP - Did you try using war cries against them? You can lower enemy aim and make running players stumble. Properly used war cries combined with proper armor should provide upper hand over such 'deadly, naked archers'

Unfortunately, war cries (at least as of two months ago) made you stumble if you held your ground too.

If you held your ground as a melee you generally just gave up a bunch of free hits, and it rendered the best strategy to try and run from or dodge strikes for the duration of the debuff. Archers are usually better equipped to do this as they are lighter, and are typically able to kite the heavier (armored) 2handers.

I think that's the opposite of how you guys wanted that skill to work


The real meta to beat skilled archers is to:

(1) be lightly armored enough as a melee that you can run them down, and hope they don't drop you with two good shots off before your stuck to them in melee.

(2) Be a better archer.

Horses are iffy at best - A good horseman can certainly threaten an archer on the open field, but give an archer a tree or any other kind of obstacle, and they can terrain the horse with impunity.

Melee *and* horse both pushing an archer will do the job pretty well though, arguably however a second archer can peel for the first one.

I agree it's not absolutely without counter, and there are at least questions about how this will scale to big mmo fights. That said, I would suggest it's not as easily counterable as you insist. Reduced Bodkin damage should go a long way to helping out here.

[Toren]

Regarding arrows damage - It's mostly fixed and bodkin arrows won't be so powerful anymore

As for general topic of archers being OP - Did you try using war cries against them? You can lower enemy aim and make running players stumble. Properly used war cries combined with proper armor should provide upper hand over such 'deadly, naked archers'

Unfortunately, war cries (at least as of two months ago) made you stumble if you held your ground too.

If you held your ground as a melee you generally just gave up a bunch of free hits, and it rendered the best strategy to try and run from or dodge strikes for the duration of the debuff. Archers are usually better equipped to do this as they are lighter, and are typically able to kite the heavier (armored) 2handers.

I think that's the opposite of how you guys wanted that skill to work


The real meta to beat skilled archers is to:

(1) be lightly armored enough as a melee that you can run them down, and hope they don't drop you with two good shots off before your stuck to them in melee.

(2) Be a better archer.

Horses are iffy at best - A good horseman can certainly threaten an archer on the open field, but give an archer a tree or any other kind of obstacle, and they can terrain the horse with impunity.

Melee *and* horse both pushing an archer will do the job pretty well though, arguably however a second archer can peel for the first one.

I agree it's not absolutely without counter, and there are at least questions about how this will scale to big mmo fights. That said, I would suggest it's not as easily counterable as you insist. Reduced Bodkin damage should go a long way to helping out here.

Exactly. Naked is currently the only way for a berserker to get close enough to archers to actually make shouts worth it. As of a week ago or so, I stumbled someone in combat with coward, so it seems its still working in reverse. I've actually escaped a coward shout as a naked archer just due to the fact that the armored knight chasing me wasn't fast enough to catch me even with the stumble. I suggested awhile back that it should be buffed against people fleeing, while not punish those who stand their ground to actually give people a reason to stand and fight. As far bodkin nerf goes, that might move people to try out melee, but will more likely just switch archers over to dull arrows as the new hit and run go to. I would like to know how crossbows stand, but as of now no one actually uses them for their practicality.

Well except for one group I saw that would hop on a horse, run, shoot the crossbow and get back on their horse, rinse and repeat. I suppose that time it was our fault for not having lancers to run them off though.

[Kael]

its just a model, but how you wil ldefeat him as peasant?
Dagger in their Neck? -> armored
Dagger insode their arms? lol - if you get near a fully armored knight they break your head with their own head.

As you said, it is just a model. Not real.[/quote]

the model is based on real armoury of a knight.

trollin on a very low level mate

[Azzerhoden]

its just a model, but how you wil ldefeat him as peasant?
Dagger in their Neck? -> armored
Dagger insode their arms? lol - if you get near a fully armored knight they break your head with their own head.

As you said, it is just a model. Not real.

the model is based on real armoury of a knight.

trollin on a very low level mate

Not trolling at all. Just pointing out that you said it was a model but provided no additional details as to its source. So until you do it doesn't have any real value to your point about how much protection it provides.

Frankly, personal positioning is more key to any fight then armor or hand weapons. Every fighting tradition teaches this. Yet no game in today's world will be able to capture this level of detail.

So until LIF is able to calculate the firmness of the ground cover you are standing as part of the strength of your attack, or the moisture content of your bow string from using it in inclement weather to the bows energy transfer rate, or even the actual hardness value of your plate armor (which ultimately decides on penetration), comparing LIF game mechanics to the real world is utterly pointless.

The only topic that does matter is the game balance across the different combat trees. Successful games employ a rock-paper-scissors-lizard-spock balance in combat. Those that don't, don't.

[Jairone]

Have (for instance) a team consisting of berserkers using warcries that will serve as support to your armored archers. Tactics and coordination are everything. Make the best of your team abilities to put your enemy at disadvantage. And remember that especially when you will take part in massive battles in the mmo.

Yes, tactics should trump all. However, having heavy armor at such an extreme disadvantage and fairly low protection comparatively.... makes it pointless.

Without some changes to how the weight factor works (like my suggestion for hard stam) and/or making heavier armors scale much better compared to lighter armors nobody is going to use them.

Which is why so many of us are so vocal about this. We want something where heavier armors do have a use, including being part of some tactics. They don't need to be the end all of the game. They need to have a place in the game. Currently they just don't.

[Rodmar]

https://youtu.be/fa8sI3IXAkI?t=165

This video shows whats the biggest problem with archers. Naked guy with a bearded axe has trouble catching up to Heavy Scale archer. And all that is because you can go out of warstance instantly whenever you want and run away without any penalties. Sheathing animation alongside with other suggestions about this issue should help.

Because I don't think developers want random encounters to look like this

[Arrakis]

https://youtu.be/fa8sI3IXAkI?t=165

This video shows whats the biggest problem with archers. Naked guy with a bearded axe has trouble catching up to Heavy Scale archer. And all that is because you can go out of warstance instantly whenever you want and run away without any penalties.

This will be fixed. No worries

[Ishamael]

You have no idea how OP archery can be

I will post the bug to the tracker if nobody finds it in the closed mmo alpha

[Toren]

https://youtu.be/fa8sI3IXAkI?t=165

This video shows whats the biggest problem with archers. Naked guy with a bearded axe has trouble catching up to Heavy Scale archer. And all that is because you can go out of warstance instantly whenever you want and run away without any penalties. Sheathing animation alongside with other suggestions about this issue should help.

Because I don't think developers want random encounters to look like this

Also notice the tap firing and how quickly he lines up his shots. With practice you can actually fire off about 5 arrows 3 seconds at close range with tap firing.

[Sleep]

There are some ideas on how to fix archers.

[Hawkyr]

The odds of a knight dying in combat was extremely low in general. They were literally walking tanks or turtles.

1. Their armor was neigh invincible. Save a fluke shot at a weak point between the plates, and even then it was unlikely for that to kill them.
2. they were worth a TON of money if ransomed. They would be more likely to be captured than killed.

Their armor was not unreasonably heavy as some people might think. The limiting factor was stamina. None of the gear was heavy, but fighting for prolonged duration was extremely tiring (look at boxers, they don't even wear armor and they are worn out in a few rounds)

Archers vs Knights

Arrows did literally nothing directly to a knight except act as a irritant. Not even a long bow with bodkins could penetrate the plate. Save an act of god, an arrow would not stab a knight. Arrows could not generate enough energy to penetrate plate. period. Probably felt not all unlike a paintball with their full armor.

Archers served basically 1 purpose in battle against knights. To kill their horses when they charge. The most damage they could do, as they would near mortally wound a knight making him fall off his dead horse at a gallop. This was one of the rare times a knight was vulnerable aka on their back.


Knights vs Knights

Death was very unlikely as they were probably friends of friends, or a similar knights order and were just fighting for their appointed lord in a battle over a claim.

Essentially whack at each other until one suffered a concussed blow or was knocked off their feet and the other either finished them off or captured them for their armor/ransom. Off chance they could land a fluke blow in a weak spot, but highly unlikely.

Also stand in grotesque positions sucking in air because they were tired and heavily draining combat.

Knights vs Peasant Levies/Mercenaries

1 vs 5 Peasant levies

On paper, it would not bode exactly well for the knight. basically a peasant or 2 would have to sacrifice themselves to knock over the knight will a polearm or a grapple. Once the knight was flipped over they would be helpless, just like a flipped turtle. The peasants still alive would rejoice as they would be able to ransom him back for a fortune. If the grapple or polearm failed to knock the knight over, then basically 2ish peasants would be dismembered and the rest would run. The knight would most likely be unable chase as he would risk slipping in metal greaves.

Reality of it was that peasants rarely got the better of any proper trained knights as

1 knights were trained and acted in a unit
2 Levies were not well trained.


5 knights vs 25 peasant levies

Same ratio, but highly in favor of the knights. Essentially people died the most during 3 times of a battle. The initial clash, the retreat, and after the battle from wounds. The 5 knights should be able to work to together to keep each other upright(most important part) and spacing would not work in favor of the peasants. 5-6 peasants would easily die in the initial clash, and another 5-6 when they turned tail. Even if they used polearms, a group of knights with a morning star or 2hander or spear would easily take them out.

Mercenaries tended to be the bane of knights. Kind of the reason why mercenaries today still carry a bad connotation, because they excelled at killing knights. Essentially far better trained free levies that were great with a halberd or piercing spear types of weapons. Pin the knight and knock them down, and either kill or ransom them. They were also very seasoned and fought hella hard, because a knight would not show them the same mercy they would show other knights.

Largely, I would say the actual killing seems to be overestimated in actual medieval combat. There are records of battles with 500+ knights and only 3-10 ten died.

[Sleep]

Arrows did literally nothing directly to a knight except act as a irritant.

Depends on distance, armor quality (was it steel or iron), angle at which the arrow hits, draw weight, etc.

Once the knight was flipped over they would be helpless, just like a flipped turtle.

Wrong. They wouldn't be more helpless than any other person flipped over. As you said yourself,

Their armor was not unreasonably heavy as some people might think.

[Hawkyr]

Arrows did literally nothing directly to a knight except act as a irritant.

Depends on distance, armor quality (was it steel or iron), angle at which the arrow hits, draw weight, etc.

Once the knight was flipped over they would be helpless, just like a flipped turtle.

Wrong. They wouldn't be more helpless than any other person flipped over. As you said yourself,

Their armor was not unreasonably heavy as some people might think.

A highly cranked crossbow would maybe have enough draw weight to generate enough force to mildly penetrate a lighter plate armor and even then your dealing with a thick layer of mail and padding which it would still not go through. Not to mention you would have to hit it at the right angle of landing it dead on, otherwise it would glance.


wrong? that was basically the only way knights died outside of a charge/falling off their horse. It doesn't matter if they slightly more or less helpless than others on their feet. Getting up takes time even without armor. Its still extra weight and its encumbering even if mildly. Thats when they were vulnerable and when people would either disable them or slip a dagger through their helmet.

My suggestion would be to make plate armor better and hella more expensive. Fielding knights was super expensive and new armor was generally not made for knights, it was passed down or captured from other knights. It was very expensive and rare on the battlefield.

Then again its a game and i'll play it anyway.