Life is Feudal Official Forum

[Fish]

I'm talking Wurm Online hard, the only thing that turns me off about this game so far is the "easy grind". I am not a tester, but I like a challenge especially when leveling my character and "easy" is far from it. Plus that feel you get once your character is half decent makes you really satisfied about your hard work. Right now I'm not too worried about it since the game is still pretty early in development. Just thought I should throw it out there.

[Proximo]

Grinding is unnecessary and a game should be designed on gameplay you do with a skill and not getting a skill. Leveling to be viable should be short and easy but mastering something and making 100 level quality items should be difficult and skill based. You are free to grind level 90-100.

[Archaegeo]

Right now the rate is 20x normal for alpha.

After alpha is over, getting from 0 to 60 in any skill will be relatively quick. at 60 it drops off a cliff.

The intent is so that you are playing the game, not grinding skills, also so that when you lose skill points through death, it doesn't make you want to rage quit.

All that being said, yeah, I think the curve should kick in at 30 myself, but im psychotic that way.

[Arrakis]

You won't really make out much of the grinding here, because if you concentrate on that you will lose valuable time that you could have used on raising certain skills, unlocking others and generally developing your character to build a shelter, craft some tools and clothes. Grinding is basically pointless and will rather disturb than help you. All players will design their own goals and work together to achieve something and grinding will appear on higher levels, most likely between levels 90-100, just to achieve 'master' titles and this will be extremely time consuming.

[Fish]

Grinding is unnecessary and a game should be designed on gameplay you do with a skill and not getting a skill. Leveling to be viable should be short and easy but mastering something and making 100 level quality items should be difficult and skill based. You are free to grind level 90-100.

90-100 is a very big difference huh? Could you go more into detail about "gameplay you do with a skill and not getting a skill."? Because I don't really understand what you mean.

Added » 25 Mar 2014, 00:38

You won't really make out much of the grinding here, because if you concentrate on that you will lose valuable time that you could have used on raising certain skills, unlocking others and generally developing your character to build a shelter, craft some tools and clothes. Grinding is basically pointless and will rather disturb than help you. All players will design their own goals and work together to achieve something and grinding will appear on higher levels, most likely between levels 90-100, just to achieve 'master' titles and this will be extremely time consuming.

Time consuming is pretty much the definition of grinding and you say "you will lose valuable time that you could have used on raising certain skills, unlocking others and generally developing your character to build a shelter, craft some tools and clothes." Do you know what grinding is? Don't mean to offend you, but you would grind those "certain skills" to unlock others and could you learn how to make a tool in 1 day from nothing. Thats supposed to build you a house? Think about it. This game is going from realism right?

[Archaegeo]

Fish,

Read the wiki, tons of info there.

Synopsis:
A skill, say terraforming, has tabs at 30, 60 and 90 where you gain abilities or more things you can do with the skill, for example terraforming at 0 lets you raise or lower, at 30 lets you flatten, flatten up, flatten down, and at 60 lets you dig tunnel.

For a skill like weapons or armor, Bobik has stated that there is no difference between 90 and 100, just that 100 gets special title, and maybe use ornamentally different items, ie, Plate Armor 100 lets you wear Royal Plate, which looks better than normal plate, but doesn't offer more defense.

Now each skill at 30 into it can also unlock the next skill up the tree, for example, Prospecting at 30 unlocks Mining, which then has its own tabs at 30, 60, and 90 pts in.

Given that you are limited to 600-710 total points in combat skills and another pool for crafting skills, you will need to make choices about how you train your skills and develop your abilities.

[Protunia]

This game does not need to be a grind period.

It is not set up to be a JOAT and you can only do a couple of skill paths and will need other players to help you as well to even exist.

Wurm is a lame grind thatcould be easier and attract many more players. Number 1 reason people leave Wurm is because is grindy and boring.

Each skill path in LiF has other skills you have to open at 60 skill before you can even do some basic things.

Bobik has the right Idea with the skilling and what it should be like with a game like this.

[Proximo]

Grinding is unnecessary and a game should be designed on gameplay you do with a skill and not getting a skill. Leveling to be viable should be short and easy but mastering something and making 100 level quality items should be difficult and skill based. You are free to grind level 90-100.

90-100 is a very big difference huh? Could you go more into detail about "gameplay you do with a skill and not getting a skill."? Because I don't really understand what you mean.

90-100 has been said to take a very long time. There is a quality level on all items you make and they determine how good a thing is. Every 30 or so skill points you unlock some sort of ability in a skill. For example the higher level your mining the faster you mine. The higher level your prospecting the more rare ore you can find. Higher level of carpentry enables creation of boards and things to use in construction.

So the ability (Cutting down a tree and processing it) is the goal of leveling a skill and not just +2% wood cutting speed per point raised.

[Saxxon]

I think some people are going to have to learn to have fun again. When I say that I am not referring to you op but the whole gaming culture.

Gamers are almost used to some type of misery before enjoyment because they think that is just the way it is supposed to be or somehow enhances the enjoyment, it doesn't. They have been conditioned to expect this all in the name of developers keeping you subbing to their game.
A lot of gamers have no idea that games are supposed to be about fun.

You will have grind here op. Trust me op months upon months if that is what you solely want to focus on but it won't be mandatory, not even remotely mandatory.

[Arrakis]

My advice for players... Try just to 'live', since you basicly have to perform all the actions that you would do in real medieval life, then easiest way to play is to just live it trough and have fun, and trust me, you will have a lot of fun exploring all the posibilities and features.

[Fish]

Ok I guess it sounds kinda cool like I said I haven't tested or anything, but ill definitely be there when Alpha opens up. I'll be back to reply on this thread once I have.

[Protunia]

Ok I guess it sounds kinda cool like I said I haven't tested or anything, but ill definitely be there when Alpha opens up. I'll be back to reply on this thread once I have.

That's great to hear you will play in alpha....

Just remember skilling is 20x the normal skilling

So we might not get a taste of what the real skilling will be like until much later on.

[bowlin12]

I agree with FISHHHHH, because spending time on something and finally hitting that mark makes you feel like you accomplished something, and you see it even more when you hit a bit harder than your enemy and take a few more blows. Yet with that being said I don't want it to be even near what Wurm takes regarding PVP and most other skills(to be useful, ofc.) I'd like to see crafting skills take some time to get up moreso than fighting. The one thing that wurm does great is how valued expert crafters are. I'd love to see all PvP centered crafting(armor, weapons, shields, bows ect..) take much longer to MASTER them, and with the mastery comes visual bonuses and maybe a slight increase with speed of parrying,swinging, durability, and slight damage increase. Though it shouldnt be so drastic as to say without masterwork weaponry you'd be destroyed no matter what.

Basically I'd love to see in the first few months of release having only few people who've focuses on certain crafting and became masters whom all wares are bought from and their work sought after by all the factions. Would be cool to see that. Don't want it to be like Mortal online where everyone does everything themselves because it doesn't really take much time. Withdrawing all type of human interaction besides those of your friends on Teamspeak.

[Archaegeo]

Everyone wont be able to do everything themselves because of the skill cap, at least not without several 10 euro alts.

That being said, I do not think the current curve is going to deter making an alt for those who have 10 euro to spend.

Bobik has said that a hardcore player will hit 90 in skills in 2-3 weeks, 100 in 6 mon.

The 100 goal is fine, and 2-3 weeks for one skill to 90 might be ok, but if it is skillcap 90's in 2-3 weeks, that feels way to fast for me, even though you lose 1-5 pts depending on your alignment (50-0) on death.

But I think we are just going to have to live with the fact that the game is being designed to encourage pvp conflicts, to have a death penalty, but not one you cant overcome in a fairly short amount of time and get back into the fray.

Its not a PVE world.

[bowlin12]

Yeah I just hope that the 100 goal is not so substantial that it blows all 90 skilled player out of the water, but not so pointless as just a visual thing where you can make/wear royal items that don't increase even slightly than their 90 skill counterparts.

[DeepComet5581]

If there's one thing I hate on any MMO (and even one or two Single-Player games), it's the sheer level of grind that tends to crop up about mid-level.

This was really a problem with Runescape, where you can spend literally days at a time levelling up some of your skills, even at around level 50-60. It's why I always find myself leaving these games at this point, because the grind gets dull and, sometimes, stressful.

EVE Online has a decent system, where you learn the various skills independently of the actions that you are taking (So passive skill gaining, in a sense).

But, anyway. The one thing I hear from a few like-minded people is that grind-ey games are only fun for the first and last 20% of the game.

Potentially hitting the maximum skill levels in 6 months isn't THAT much of a problem because, as Bobik said (And Archaegeo reiterated), only a hardcore player is likely to accomplish this.

Most of us will, I suspect, have jobs, hobbies and social lives, so for us it would be more like a year, possibly 2 years.

There will perhaps be players who don't wish to become super-high level, especially where combat skills are concerned. Being able to ROFLStomp over any and all gets boring quickly, and I suspect that many will want more even, or perhaps even slightly challenging, fights.

Of course, there is little to stop one maxing out non-combat skills, but players are only likely to dedicate the time and resources to a skill unless it has become a labour of love.

Anyway, ramble over.

Although, I have to say, it seems a little suspect that one could level every single skill up to 90 in less than a month. How many skills are there, out of curiosity?

May your Steel be sharp.
~DC

[LordWiese]

If there's one thing I hate on any MMO (and even one or two Single-Player games), it's the sheer level of grind that tends to crop up about mid-level.

This was really a problem with Runescape, where you can spend literally days at a time levelling up some of your skills, even at around level 50-60. It's why I always find myself leaving these games at this point, because the grind gets dull and, sometimes, stressful.

EVE Online has a decent system, where you learn the various skills independently of the actions that you are taking (So passive skill gaining, in a sense).

But, anyway. The one thing I hear from a few like-minded people is that grind-ey games are only fun for the first and last 20% of the game.

Potentially hitting the maximum skill levels in 6 months isn't THAT much of a problem because, as Bobik said (And Archaegeo reiterated), only a hardcore player is likely to accomplish this.

Most of us will, I suspect, have jobs, hobbies and social lives, so for us it would be more like a year, possibly 2 years.

There will perhaps be players who don't wish to become super-high level, especially where combat skills are concerned. Being able to ROFLStomp over any and all gets boring quickly, and I suspect that many will want more even, or perhaps even slightly challenging, fights.

Of course, there is little to stop one maxing out non-combat skills, but players are only likely to dedicate the time and resources to a skill unless it has become a labour of love.

Anyway, ramble over.

Although, I have to say, it seems a little suspect that one could level every single skill up to 90 in less than a month. How many skills are there, out of curiosity?

May your Steel be sharp.
~DC

I like you, welcome to our forum!

[Archaegeo]

Well, technically you cant do them all

You can do 600-710 points worth of combat http://lifeisfeudal.gamepedia.com/Combat_skill and 600-710 points worth of peaceful skills http://lifeisfeudal.gamepedia.com/Peaceful_skills

Bearing in mind that looking at those lists, when there is a prerequisite skill, you need at least 30 (currently) in the prerequisite to unlock the next higher skill.

So getting Heavy Horse Handling to 90 for example will use up 210 of your points, that's assuming you lock War Horse handling, Chain Mail Armor, Mounted Fighting Master, and Lancing all at 30.

I do think the gain rate will be too fast, imho, even once the 20x alpha bonus is gone. But mostly because of the cap, you will get to it pretty quickly and then just be shuffling points around by lowering some to raise others.

The ONLY reason I think it is too fast though is because I want the guy at -49 alignment to hurt badly when he dies and loses 10 skill points randomly.

If they come off a skill > 60, it will hurt, if they come off skills < 60, its not going to be so bad.

But again, its something we will need to feel out in game, if there are other achievements that take a while to accomplish, what does it matter how quick skill rates are set?

[Protunia]

Well, technically you cant do them all

You can do 600-710 points worth of combat http://lifeisfeudal.gamepedia.com/Combat_skill and 600-710 points worth of peaceful skills http://lifeisfeudal.gamepedia.com/Peaceful_skills

Bearing in mind that looking at those lists, when there is a prerequisite skill, you need at least 30 (currently) in the prerequisite to unlock the next higher skill.

So getting Heavy Horse Handling to 90 for example will use up 210 of your points, that's assuming you lock War Horse handling, Chain Mail Armor, Mounted Fighting Master, and Lancing all at 30.

I do think the gain rate will be too fast, imho, even once the 20x alpha bonus is gone. But mostly because of the cap, you will get to it pretty quickly and then just be shuffling points around by lowering some to raise others.

The ONLY reason I think it is too fast though is because I want the guy at -49 alignment to hurt badly when he dies and loses 10 skill points randomly.

If they come off a skill > 60, it will hurt, if they come off skills < 60, its not going to be so bad.

But again, its something we will need to feel out in game, if there are other achievements that take a while to accomplish, what does it matter how quick skill rates are set?

Havee you even tried the skill program??

you cant go 30/30/30/30/90

you have to go 60/60/60/60/90

Some of these skills have prerequisites that you have to keep it seems or you lose effectiveness.

I guess we'll see how it goes in the game when people try to lower skills from 60 to 30 underneath a 90.

[Archaegeo]

Hmm,

Maybe it varies by skill, I know 30 prospecting got me 0 mining

Assumed they all "opened" at 0

Otherwise it would be 60 60 60 60 90 or 330pts to get 90 heavy horse, which may be true.

Yeah, using their calculator, looks like the first tier opens at 30 on the base tier, but the second tier doesn't open till 60 on base tier, and the third tier not till 60 on first tier

So yeah, 90 on final tier is 330 pts invested cause of how it works, assuming the calculator is correct.

[Proximo]

Each skill has tiers every 30 points that unlock some sort of ability. You have to hit a certain level to unlock the next skill in the line. All skills perform an action. If you want to grind you can go pick 500 herbs or cut down and saw 5000 boards from trees. There will be very little to no grind attached to unlocking basic actions.

Mastering a skill will take substantially longer and give you a slight bonus like higher quality, more dmg or better dmg reduction. Every 30 skill points in an armour skill unlocks the ability to equip better armour.

The goal is not to grind forestry to get better woodcutting, the goal is to level forestry to unlock carpentry and bow crafting. Thus making the entire process useful.

[Archaegeo]

Protunia, see Bobik answer #421.interactive-faq-t3/page230/#p11758
About skill loss

[Protunia]

Protunia, see Bobik answer #421.interactive-faq-t3/page230/#p11758
About skill loss

Yeah already read that you lose from the top down.

so cant be 30/30/30/30/90 only 60/60/60/60/90...89...88...87

And that means locking up a bunch of skill to master top tier.

[Archaegeo]

Yep, 330 pts if you want the 90 tab in the fifth tier of a tree line