Life is Feudal Official Forum

[Siegbert]

Well, ArmA 2 is more about singleplayer/coop missions while DayZ is a persistent online world. Granted it's not the same, but DayZ enhanced the online experience of ArmA and was very well received by the gamers. LiF (MMO) would also enhance the online experience of LiF/YO which might lead to even more potential customers in the long run.

[Cndo]

I personally want more than anything to see a playable game asap, and I think that this is the best way to go about it for now. All things can be different later, and LiF is the kind of game where global and private could easily work together. Not to mention I would like to see private servers for the testing they can provide and to show users what the game is like.

[Beeskee]

Thinking about this more, I am really excited for it. The devs can get the sandbox working perfectly while we experiment and play on smaller servers and whet our appetite for playing in the real game.

Also, we won't have to wait for the test runs that most folks miss, just start up your local copy and patch it up to test the updates, or hop on your favorite Yo sever.

Also, LIF: YO can be read as LIF: Yooooooo


Re hosting costs:

You may want to consider Amazon hosting rather than buying physical servers and investing in data center stuff, at least in the beginning. There's a lot of benefits including the ability to start and stop servers at any time, no charge when the servers aren't running, and low bid spot instances at 1/10th the cost. I can run a minecraft server with tons of ram and cpu for like $20/month as long as I don't care if it goes down unexpectedly when I am outbid. Great for testing.

(There's no affiliate link hidden in here anywhere, and I don't work for Amazon, I just really like their hosting.)

[Flannery]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but for me it doesn't feel like bait and switch at all - it feels like someone is trying to protect my investment by not letting it get to a situation it completely collapses.

I would seriously hate to be in these guys shoes atm - the stress must be horrendous.

Even if it did collapse in the end it wouldn't make me feel cheated in any way. I'm absolutely sure that every effort has and is being made, and that's what I contributed to enable....so I've a lot less to lose than Bob and his team.

And I still have absolute faith that in the end they'll get there.

+1

This pretty much sums it up for me as well.
Predicting this and that does not have any base in fact - as each case is unique and you have just as many horror stories as you have farytales when it comes to game development. And NO one here can say it will go this way or the other. Not even the Dev's.

But the Dev's are the ONLY ones who really know the score when it comes to this particular development, and I am absolutely sure there are NO possible scenarios we can predict that they have not already thought of and taken into account before this decision was made.

Like said before by others - I highly doubt this is what they wanted initially for LiF - and they have had to make a detour to be able to reach their goal, and meet our expertations. But that detour might also harvest positive rewards we as a community cannot see yet - especially those blinded by not understanding or seeing the big picture of game development.


PS:
I truly for once am completely in agreement with both Sensei, Proximo and Protunia - although I always respect your opinions, I do not always agree... Hehe

[Zombojoe]

Disappointing change of plans.

That being said if this will speed up the development of getting the game to a playable state, go for it.

This game has too much potential to die from a lack of funding. Establish a solid game first and then work out the MMO issues. If the PvP is half as good as it sounds people will play it even if its only 64 player servers.

[ARTHURDAYNE151]

This is welcome news.

Essentially LIF:YO is Everquest Next: Landmark and LIF is Everquest Next.

As a roleplayer, we are a niche, within a niche. Having the ability to create my own server dedicated to roleplay will certainly increase the accessibility and enjoyment of other roleplayers. Being able to set up GMs to enforce roleplaying rules and guidelines is great. Thank you for the update Bobik, and one way or the other, I will continue to support your project.

[Proximo]

It's going to be like a way better version of persistent world mod if anyone here knows what that is. ATS is already thinking up ideas for what kinda server's were going to have. Faction warfare, arenas, city building stuff, FFA free build etc. I've played warband since it's release and my gripe with most games is that they are not sandbox enough. A Medieval, realistic, "minecraft" is basically my dream game and this is one of the few that has a good concept so I'll be sticking with it.

[Elindor]

This could be a completely uneducated/out of date response, but I'll ask anyhow...

If the issue is server stability on it's current (amazingly massive) scale, what about just reducing the size of the main server for launch, and then expanding that as things progress? (if population makes that necessary)

Chances are, the vast size of the current main server may not be necessary at launch anyhow since the LiF population will likely not be massive at launch, and will grow through word of mouth, etc.

Again, that might not help at all - just a thought.

---

Other thought -

Bobik - on these "Your Own" servers, can you allow the server admins to add aggressive NPC opponents if they wish? Don't need new models or anything, just humans like anyone else, but NPC's.

That way an admin could turn it really high and players could try to hold out vs an onslaught of invading npcs

Like Viking hordes

Just another thought...would make these "Your Own" servers more appealing to small groups of players.

[Siegbert]

This could be a completely uneducated/out of date response, but I'll ask anyhow...

If the issue is server stability on it's current (amazingly massive) scale, what about just reducing the size of the main server for launch, and then expanding that as things progress? (if population makes that necessary)

Chances are, the vast size of the current main server may not be necessary at launch anyhow since the LiF population will likely not be massive at launch, and will grow through word of mouth, etc.

Again, that might not help at all - just a thought.

As far as I understand it the whole server node system either works or it doesn't. If servers keep crashing and they won't know how to fix the problem there is no alpha testing. They'd need to take the servers down constantly.

Other thought -

Bobik - on these "Your Own" servers, can you allow the server admins to add aggressive NPC opponents if they wish? Don't need new models or anything, just humans like anyone else, but NPC's.

That way an admin could turn it really high and players could try to hold out vs an onslaught of invading npcs

Like Viking hordes

Just another thought...would make these "Your Own" servers more appealing to small groups of players.

There are no NPCs planned... how hard is that to understand? (sorry for rudeness but it just keeps coming up)

[Bobik]

Siegbert answered that all.

It is not like we don't know how our own developed node system is working but it is VERY complex thus it have a lot of places where things may go wrong and they go wrong occasionally. It is all can be solved and we're doing it, but just not that fast as we all want to

[Bran34]

Simply put, no. Please, no. I came into this expecting a game with global politics and warfare, with a few thousand people on a stupidly massive world all having their own interactions.

What I did NOT come here for was this. If I wanted to play a semi realistic medieval RPG with 64 or so other people I would just play M&B's PW mod.

All this is going to do is move away from the appeal that brought a lot of us here in the first place, including myself.

[Siegbert]

Simply put, no. Please, no. I came into this expecting a game with global politics and warfare, with a few thousand people on a stupidly massive world all having their own interactions.

What I did NOT come here for was this. If I wanted to play a semi realistic medieval RPG with 64 or so other people I would just play M&B's PW mod.

All this is going to do is move away from the appeal that brought a lot of us here in the first place, including myself.

Doesn't sound like you read what it's about.

[Bran34]

Simply put, no. Please, no. I came into this expecting a game with global politics and warfare, with a few thousand people on a stupidly massive world all having their own interactions.

What I did NOT come here for was this. If I wanted to play a semi realistic medieval RPG with 64 or so other people I would just play M&B's PW mod.

All this is going to do is move away from the appeal that brought a lot of us here in the first place, including myself.

Doesn't sound like you read what it's about.

I most certainly did read everything. LiF:YO and LiF:MMO are going to be separate games. LiF:YO is simply going to take away the population that the MMO server would otherwise have.

I realize that LiF:MMO will still be coming out, but that doesn't matter. What matters to me is that LiF:YO will cannibalize sales from LiF:MMO, to the obvious detriment of those of us who only wanted the MMO.

[Siegbert]

Ok, nvm

Though I doubt that a petty 64 player game will take away anybody from a MMO if you have the choice. Either you are into small servers or you're into big ones.

[Bran34]

Ok, nvm

Though I doubt that a petty 64 player game will take away anybody from a MMO if you have the choice. Either you are into small servers or you're into big ones.

The fact is that they are two separate games. The choice costs money. If you're already having a good time with 64 people why bother paying ANOTHER $30 to pick up the MMO version? Or, say the server you play on has some really nice mods that make the game way more fun. Well, those mods aren't present on the MMO server.

I just don't think there would be a point in releasing the MMO version of the game if YO is released, simply because YO is going to cannibalize players from MMO.



I would rather YO run on a server rental system, but still be semi linked to MMO. purchasing YO would entitle you to your choice of either a 30-day server rental or a pass to the mainland on MMO. If you pick the mainland pass you can still play on YO servers or rent your own YO server. This way, both YO and MMO would be sustainable because of YO's recurring server rental fees, while keeping it from cannibalizing sales from MMO too much.

[Hodo]

Ok, nvm

Though I doubt that a petty 64 player game will take away anybody from a MMO if you have the choice. Either you are into small servers or you're into big ones.

Have you played Wurm Online?

A large part of that playerbase would KILL for this option so they don't have to worry about griefers or dealing with PvPers ever.

Not to say this isn't the best idea for a bad situation. But it really is the best thing Bobnik can do out of this crap sandwich. I don't agree with it, but it isn't my project, and I at current have no stake in it so I have no horse in this race.

If it turns out to be crap, then there are plenty of other sandboxes coming out this year, if not this year then next. I have been gaming long enough to know that there is always another game. And indy developed games come and go with the tides. And to date I can name 3 that have been mildly successful and are still around after 10 years.

World War II Online -Cornered Rats Studios
Eve Online - CCP
Wurm Online-Rolf Jansson & Markus Persson

[Bran34]

Wurm is a mess of outdated mechanics and is in need of a serious overhaul. same with WWIIOL. Eve doesn't exactly scratch anything close to the same itch that LiF would. Wurm HAS PvE servers for those people, anyways.

[Hodo]

Wurm is a mess of outdated mechanics and is in need of a serious overhaul. same with WWIIOL. Eve doesn't exactly scratch anything close to the same itch that LiF would. Wurm HAS PvE servers for those people, anyways.

As I said, they are sandboxes and have been around for 10+ years.

How many other sandbox games can you say have achieved that goal?

I am not saying they are great games or the perfect sandbox. But you were only interested in reading what you wanted to read.

[Bran34]

Wurm is a mess of outdated mechanics and is in need of a serious overhaul. same with WWIIOL. Eve doesn't exactly scratch anything close to the same itch that LiF would. Wurm HAS PvE servers for those people, anyways.

As I said, they are sandboxes and have been around for 10+ years.

How many other sandbox games can you say have achieved that goal?

I am not saying they are great games or the perfect sandbox. But you were only interested in reading what you wanted to read.

I'm not saying they aren't great games, I'm just saying they don't have the same point as LiF does. Wurm comes close, it's just that its age is most certainly showing.

[Hodo]

I'm not saying they aren't great games, I'm just saying they don't have the same point as LiF does. Wurm comes close, it's just that its age is most certainly showing.

Not saying they are the same. Saying they are indy sandbox developers that are successful. If I were to try and tell you how many indy developers who have made a sandbox game like LiF and are around after 2 years that list would be even smaller.

Xsyon
Wurm

That is it.

[Beeskee]

It's a real easy decision for all of us, since it has already been made, and the alternative is likely LIF not coming out at all in any form.

[Perpetualgamer]

People who play LiF:YO are not people who would have played LIF. If people were going to play LiF they still play LiF. If the playerbase of LiF ends up smaller than all of you are comfortable with, I can confidently say that LiF:YO had very little to do with that compared to the fact that the niche of people who like full loot open pvp is tiny.

If they don't do this, NOTHING ever comes out. No LiF, no LiF:YO and Bob gets to figure out how to pay back his investors and shut the doors to the company forever.

This is the most responsible thing done in the indie scene recently. Bob made the hard, and un-popular decision, to protect the investment of the very people who want to string him up.

Slow clap for all of you ungrateful children. Slowclap!

[Bran34]

People who play LiF:YO are not people who would have played LIF. If people were going to play LiF they still play LiF. If the playerbase of LiF ends up smaller than all of you are comfortable with, I can confidently say that LiF:YO had very little to do with that compared to the fact that the niche of people who like full loot open pvp is tiny.

If they don't do this, NOTHING ever comes out. No LiF, no LiF:YO and Bob gets to figure out how to pay back his investors and shut the doors to the company forever.

This is the most responsible thing done in the indie scene recently. Bob made the hard, and un-popular decision, to protect the investment of the very people who want to string him up.

Slow clap for all of you ungrateful children. Slowclap!

Oh I'm sorry, excuse me for not getting what I expected. As much as we know that LiF is most certainly hitting financial roadblocks, calling us ungrateful children is extremely immature.

You think that the "full loot open pvp" genre is niche? Are you going to tell me DayZ is niche? There is definitely a market for full loot open pvp. The main problem is just that these games have such a lack of funding that they simply can't get their names out, or they just too tedious (wurm) or too rough around the edges (mortal online) to be fun.

Rather than making LiF:YO and LiF:MMO separate games, I still feel that they should be combined into one title, with provided access to the full MMO and a server rental feature for YO in the same vein as Battlefield's server rental feature. In this manner, more profit stays going toward bobik from people renting servers to play YO AND these people can stop playing YO and go to the MMO server at any time because it was included in the $30 purchase.

[Proximo]

My only real concern with this game still considering we've barely touched it is the combat mechanics. It's been far to long just tinkering with the servers I want to see game mechanics in action and I really hope this private server thing works quickly and gets the ball rolling.

For most people in ATS this is still a make or break concern for this game and if the combat and pvp is good. All I can say is don't half ass it on the combat mechanics or you will regret it.

[Siegbert]

For most people in ATS this is still a make or break concern for this game and if the combat and pvp is good. All I can say is don't half ass it on the combat mechanics or you will regret it.

I would concur. If combat won't feel right I would have to drop the whole game as well... This would have to be very high priority, right after having stable servers.

[Wigster600]

For most people in ATS this is still a make or break concern for this game and if the combat and pvp is good. All I can say is don't half ass it on the combat mechanics or you will regret it.

I would concur. If combat won't feel right I would have to drop the whole game as well... This would have to be very high priority, right after having stable servers.

Definitely, I hope they don't unbalance the weapons like Warband, where the two handers move at the speed of light.

[Strategos]

Agreed:
True, it was a good idea, but it will cause players to branch out into different servers, resulting in de-populated official servers.
Anyway, hope you change your mind, because a limited number of large official servers is infinetly better than the minecraft-style small, abandoned non-official servers...

[Siegbert]

I mean, at some point they simply could stop upgrading Lif:YO and just focus further development on the MMO version degrading YO to a provisional side project that would soon be forgotten... Like nobody cared for Mount&Blade anymore once Warband was released...

[Beeskee]

I expect by the time the sandbox is ready, folks will be tired of YO and will gladly move there. But they will still keep a copy of their private world, or make sure their small group server is running okay on occasion.

It would be easy to schedule group or guild events on a private server too, with less worry about lag or random interruptions. Things that don't necessarily need to happen in the sandbox can be done there, like meetings.

The worst I was worried about with YO was the community being too fractured, but I think the sandbox will be the Real Game for most folks. Tho it would be cool if there was some interaction possible between the sandbox and YO servers which have undergone some form of verification. Maybe a "legit" setting in YO to lock down the server to a special kind of mode so that no cheating can be done. Then, the YO servers could be connected to the sandbox in some way once it was ready.

[Strategos]

Also: a question...
When will regular LiF sandbox be released now that LiF:YO is being developed? Does this postpone things significantly or is LiF:YO just an add on in order to make beta more convenient and workable?