Life is Feudal Official Forum

[Khroma]

Your arguments are full of assumption based how you think you know better.

You could disagree, the problem is how you end up being so full of yourself the more and more we discussed about your arguments. And your counter argument were not constructive in any way.

Typically saying i was wrong because player will always grief or RPK, how is that constructive ? This is totally subjective, and everyone know there will always be players griefing so how is that relevant for the arguments ?
You basicly saying right of the bat that i m stupid and dont even know that people are griefing. That some constructive shit here man.

You have to understand how you write, the way you explain your arguments is not constructive. Saying something is bad is one thing, explaining them in a constructive manner is another.

Just read your own post, it is full of subjective stuff.
And most lack a lot of precision to be understood.

For example, in your first post you say you disagree with forced scarcity because it become a hassle rather a reason for trade. This is totally subjective.
And in a latter post, you say that you disagree with the examples number of the scarcity system and not the system itself.
What didnt you said so earlier ? This is way more constructive than some subjective feedback.

So you end up with a mixed post of constructive argument, subjective opinion about how this shit is bad and this one is good because you know better, and added to that some antagonizing comment.

I m sorry but you are far from someone trying to improve this post, maybe you intended to do so with your first post but all the following post are mostly stupid argument trying to be right on subjective matters and stupid fact that anybody knows, the constructive feedback left in your post is so tainted by the rest that it doesnt allow any constructive discussion.
All you end up is antoganozing everyone against you. And this is not the only post.

But hey, you are so full of youself that you cant aknowledge you are wrong, so you will never be constructive on any discussion not because you dont have constructive feedback but just because at the moment you start to implie that someone is wrong and you are better you will antagonize people against you.

[Sunleader]

Your arguments are full of assumption based how you think you know better.

Most of your first post argument were fine, you could disagree, the problem is how you end up being so full of yourself the more and more we discussed about your arguments. And your counter argument were not constructive in any way.

Typically saying i was wrong because player will always grief or RPK, how is that constructive ?

You have to understand how you write man, the way you explain your arguments is not constructive. Saying something is bad is one thing, explaining them in a constructive manner is another.

Just read your own post, it is full of subjective stuff.
And most lack a lot of precision to be understood.

For example, in your first post you say you disagree with forced scarcity because it become a hassle rather a reason for trade. This is totally subjective.
And in a latter post, you say that you disagree with the examples number of the scarcity system and not the system itself.
What didnt you said so earlier ? This is way more constructive than some subjective feedback.

So you end up with a mixed post of constructive argument, subjective opinion about how this shit is bad and this one is good because you know better, and added to that some antagonizing comment.

1.
How you yell into the forest so it echoes out of it.
If you guys ignore my arguments and explanations and just throw personal attacks at me while claiming i am carebear.
Then you cant seriously complain that at some point i will stop bothering with the extensive effort.

2.
RPKs and Griefers always trying to kill people and to that end abusing anything they can is a fact.
You have to lay out systems with player behavior in mind.
Otherwise they will fail.

3.
Any Opinion is Subjective.
Yours as well as mine.
Your entire post right there is subjective and full of yourself as you think that your so unfaillable that you can judge others on their own opinions.

4.
Unlike your way which seems to be to just ignore aby Arguments on topic and just keep derailing the topic towards a discussion about the Forum user which disagrees with you.
I would dare saying that my Posts on Topic were extremely constructive.


5.
I explained in my very first post already that I generally agree with the Suggestion but that there is some parts i cannot agree on.

I already there explained that the scarcity suggested is too much.
This has not changed at all.
It getting more detailed in the discussion is normal.

The examples being used for that was just to convey my problem with the system and explain why I dont think it will work.


6.
Well thats way better than what I can say for most posts I got from you and others here.
Which was with few exception not constructive and not even on topic and had way mire than just a few antagonizing comments.
Which however was at all times entirely subjective.



Well then.
Do you think you could stop derailing the topic by calling my person out over and over ?
If your that obsessed with discussing me how about you open a Topic on that ?

[Khroma]

You personnally attacked me first implying i m stupid and dont know people are griefing so please ...

I think you dont even understand how you antagonize people against you. Thats splendid.

I m not ignoring your argument, as i said you cant be constructive if you are antagonizing people against you, so this discussion is dead anyway, just trying to see if i can make you understand your own stupidity. Nothing better to do, just woke up.

[Sunleader]

You personnally attacked me first saying i m stupid and dont know people are griefing so please ...

I think you dont even understand how you antoganize people against you. Thats splendid.

I m not ignoring your argument, as i said you cant be constructive if you are antagonizing people against you, so this discussion is dead anyway, just trying to see if i can make you understand your own stupidity. Nothing better to do, just woke up.

So if I disagree with you that effectively means I am camling you stupid.
Good to know.
But by that Locic you insulted me countless times.


And oh dont worry. I know very well.
You see. People Generally hate it when I point their nose onto faults in their Ideas.
But I am not mincing words just so people like me.

If I think something is bad then I say it is bad.
I will explain that in as much detail as I can.
But I am not going to flower things up.
From my experience being unclear about such things only results in people either ignoring it or misunderstanding it.



Well then.
Its likely pointless to ask you to stop discussing my person instead of the topic.
So just get it off your chest so we get it over with....

[Khroma]

If you say to someone he is wrong while showing you know better by pointing the obvious.

Ye most people will understand that you think they are stupid. So how can you expect having a constructive conversation if you dont respect other people.

But hey maybe you are not smart enough to understand that, which makes it even more sad.

If you would indulge me, i would really like to know your age to see if my profiling is going on the right track.

[Sunleader]

If you say to someone he is wrong while showing you know better by poiting the obvious.

Ye most people will understand that you think they are stupid.

But hey maybe you are not smart enough to understand that, which makes it even more sad.

If you would indulge me, i would really like to know your age to see if my profiling is going on the right track.

If you Equal being wrong with being stupid I would suggest getting some distance.
In Debate its paramount that you Seperate your Person from your Ideas.
If you get attached to your Ideas and understand any Critic on your Idea as a Critic on you. You will end up very troubled in Forums.

Of course.
This again will likely again be understood as offending by you.
Sigh...


See Mate.
10 years ago I was appalled when Devs said that they prefer to make changes by metadata instead of folowing popular demand.
And I wouldnt accept it when Devs said they usually wont answer Suggestions in the Forum because it always ends with people taking it personal and starting a flamewar over it when they got rejected....

But while I know that this sounds condescending and spoken from above again.
The absolutely worst Judge of an Idea is someone who shares it.
Because the moment you get personally invested in it. You become blind to its faults and when others point out such faults you become aggressive and unreasonable.


You say I am full of myself.
But your so Invested in your Opinion that you dont even consider it possible that you could be wrong.
And your so focused on my Person for Attacking this Opinion that your no longer even being reasonable with your statements and accusations on me.


Greetz Sun
Ps.
I am 31.
Born in Summer 1987

[Khroma]

I am not really offended by you,

But you seem certain that the problem of this discussion not going into a constructive discussion is not your fault while it probably is.

I am actually having fun trying to make you understand that your attitude may be the problem here, you dont walk in a room full of stranger and speak without restraint.

In real life you wouldnt, else you would like to be punched in the face maybe.
On the forums obviously we cant do that, so dont expect to have a constructive conversation when your attitude is not fit for one.

The least you could have done on a forum topics like that is acknowledge the OP time and effort for putting some ideas together, before trying to make a criticism.

If you want to have a constructive conversation you need to acknowledge the ideas / intelligence of the people you are trying to make a conversation with, not the opposite. Then you can explain what you think should be done different. If you dont, why would you expect they actually do ?

Yet again your first post wasnt really an issue, the problem is your behavior in your following post after we answered you with respectfull manner.

Oh so you can actually focus on a topic without throsing personal attacks every second sentence.

This particular sentence makes me cringe, but hey are we trying to have a constructive conversation are we not ?

Everyone can have a bad day, but as long as you dont acknowledge it, dont expect us to forgive you your manner and try to have a real conversation with you.

If you would indulge me again, what is your current occupation ?

[Sunleader]

I am not really offended by you,

But you seem certain that the problem of this discussion not going into a constructive discussion is not your fault while it probably is.

I am actually having fun trying to make you understand that your attitude may be the problem here, you dont walk in a room full of stranger and speak without restraint.

In real life you wouldnt, else you would like to be punched in the face maybe.
On the forums obviously we cant do that, so dont expect to have a constructive conversation when your attitude is not fit for one.

The least you could have done on a forum topics like that is acknowledge the OP time and effort for putting some ideas together, before trying to make a criticism.

If you want to have a constructive conversation you need to acknowledge the ideas / intelligence of the people you are trying to make a conversation with, not the opposite. Then you can explain what you think should be done different. If you dont, why would you expect they actually do ?

Yet again your first post wasnt really an issue, the problem is your behavior in your following post after we answered you with respectfull manner.

Oh so you can actually focus on a topic without throsing personal attacks every second sentence.

This particular sentence makes me cringe, but hey are we trying to have a constructive conversation are we not ?

Everyone can have a bad day, but as long as you dont acknowledge it, dont expect us to forgive you your manner and try to have a real conversation with you.

If you would indulge me again, what is your current occupation ?

1.
And yet you claimed just before that I am offending you guys and that my General Attitude is Offending.

2.
No Offense intended.
But as I said. I am not going to Sugarcoat things.
I wont Sing Praises on someone just so he is in a good enough mood to hold an argument lol.


3.
I am not innocent on it. But sure as hell you guys aint either.
Going by your Description my Fault is I wasnt overly Polite.
But Mate alot 8f the stuff you threw around was not Respectful at all but was outright insulting.
And alot of it was not even on topic but entirely on my Person.


4.
I bevave just like that in RL.
And strangely enough I am getting forward with it.
The one Exception is Shady Characters on the Street which usually complain that I am disrespecting them.
And no there is no intended implication there. Just telling you my experiences.


5.
And Mate.
That line made you cringe?
Hahahahaha....

Mate that guy in the other Topic Posted a Wall of Insults at me.
And not the stuff you consider as offending for not being polite enough.
But actual offences like calling me Potato, questioning my mental health and other nice things.

So Yeah.
As I said.
It echoes out of the forest the same way you yell into it.
If you demand Respect you should first offer it yourself.

Demanding Respect for People when you are not treating them with such is pretty arrogant and I see no Reason to oblige.
Moreover.
You Jumped into this when Monco. (An RPK who has been at odds with me for quite a while) came into this Topic and Badmouthed me without so much as mentioning the topic lol.

So Yeah.
Sorry Man. But if you demand Respect from me for People that treatet me like that. Then Sorry but your on lost Post.


Greetz Sun.
Ps. Uff.
Pls note I am not 100% sure this is correct in English.
My Job is a bit of an exception cause there is only like a Thousand People doing it. And only like 100 or so Machines like that.

In German its called *Großgeräteführer*
Which would translate to *Big Machines Leader* but I doubt its called that lol.

The closest explanation I could give is that I am Machinist for Mining Machinery that weights 5000-16000 Tons.

Its Basicly a Machine like this one.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stacker
But Bigger and Driving on its own Tracks instead of Rails.

[Khroma]

I m not easily offended, but your attitude was offensive, so you cant expect to have a constructive conversation, that is my point.

So this conversation was basicly ruined by a drama from another topic.

I guess shit happens on forums too, too bad it happened here.

[Sunleader]

I m not easily offended, but your attitude was offensive, so you cant expect to have a constructive conversation, that is my point.

So this conversation was basicly ruined by a drama from another topic.

I guess shit happens on forums too, too bad it happened here.

Thats your Decision.
But Honestly said. This Topic being Derailed is mostly your Fault.
Diddy exchanged some Remarks with me. But stayed mostly on Topic and bought actual Arguments which I answered in Kind.
And Mongo made just one Comment which was an Offense but would not have done anything to the Topic in the Larger Picture.


When SonofKitt resolved to just Disagree my Part here was Finished anyways.
Yet it was YOU who refused to just let it rest and had to Challenge me again.
Causing a Second Debate to break open.

I wont blame SonofKitt too much on his last Post making an Offensive Remark and really let it show that he didnt bother Reading my Post.
After this he however kept Silent. Which would have meant I would not Post further either and we could have all gone Home.

Yet guess who could not resist to just drag me back into the Topic again....

Yep.
It was You again.
And not even by Debating the Topic. But instead by making Accusations and putting up an Extremely Offending Debate about my Person.

Which is highly Disrespectful towards the OP who made the Suggestion and anyone who wanted to keep this Topic Clean.

And not even because I actually Offended you.
But simply because you apparently felt the Need to Satisfy your Personal and Subjective Opinion of how an Debate is Supposed to be Conducted.

The Joke is.
While your calling my Attitude Offending and demand me to Pay Respect to People which Disrespected me before.
Your the one who has not only Offended People that never did you Harm. But has also Disrespected others just to satisfy his personal rage about My Person.


Sorry Mate.
But in the End of the Day.
There is only one Person in this Topic unable to hold a Constructive Conversation and who was unable to let it rest after he ran out of Arguments and thus had to derail the Topic.
And that is You.
You who after the Conversation had basicly Resolved TWICE could not help but to Force another Round onto the Topic.
You who after having nothing else to say on Topic. Had decided to just Continue the Debate on my Person instead of taking it to Private Messages.


This Conversation was not Ruined by another Topics Quarrel.
These 2 Remarks were not even a Major Disruption.
This Conversation was Ruined by you. Because you could not let it Rest


Well then.
I.ll ask if the Mods might be so Nice to Delete our little Quarrel here which was entirely Off Topic.
Its one thing that I am ready to indulge others with Answers even if I dont feel they belong here.
But its another Story to have someone Topic Derailed over it.


Greetz Sun

[Khroma]

I derailed the topic because it was already ruined.
So the conversation could be ended without even more bloodshed on this topic.
But since you have to be right i guess you cant be accounted for.

Anyway it is always interesting to stumble upon specimens like you.

Being who you are, i m feeling more and more sorry for you.

I wish you good luck in your life, it seemed you had an hard one so i ll indulge you.

[Sunleader]

I derailed the topic because it was already ruined.
So the conversation could be ended without even more bloodshed on this topic.
But since you have to be right i guess you cant be accounted for.

Anyway it is always interesting to stumble upon specimens like you.

Being who you are, i m feeling more and more sorry for you.

I wish you good luck in your life, it seemed you had an hard one so i ll indulge you.

So basicly you Admit that you Derailed the Topic because you had no more Arguments. And thus wanted to end in Off Topic.

As for the rest of the Post Mate.
You really need to get some Tea and Calm down.
Insulting someones Private Life like that right after admitting that he is pretty much entirely right. Just screams to others that your Butthurt.

[Khroma]

I m perfectly calm,

I gave you plenty occasion to end this discussion but yet you seem to want to continue.

You can make me say whatever you want, good argument or not is not the problem here.

I m not attacking you personal life, i just said i m starting to feel sorry for you because of your attitude.

It seems that it is you who are starting to get butthurt by this pointless conversation.

PS : First comment from you with such a few words ! We are definitively making progress here.

[SonofKitt]

To be honest, i dont think the back a forth arguing takes away from the original post at all. People commenting on this thread keeps it at the top of the list which means alot more people might read the initial post. Which is all i can hope for.

Sure some will skim through the comment section but most are educated enough to decide which comments have value and which do not.

Have a nice day.

[Sunleader]

I m perfectly calm,

I gave you plenty occasion to end this discussion but yet you seem to want to continue.

You can make me say whatever you want, good argument or not is not the problem here.

I m not attacking you personal life, i just said i m starting to feel sorry for you because of your attitude.

It seems that it is you who are starting to get butthurt by this pointless conversation.

PS : First comment from you with such a few words ! We are definitively making progress here.

The way your writing shows that your far from Calm ^^
The Fact that you abandoned your former polite attitude in favor of an more aggressive one using indirect insults is also showing pretty clearly that your not Calm at all ^^
You are extremely annoyed and pretty butthurt. Thats the feeling I get.

You now indirectly offering to end the Conversation after previously ignoring my offers to do so is another good Indicator that your looking for a way out of this.


But oh well.
I am not a Griefer and it doesnt bring me Joy to have others Rage.
So I.ll leave it at that.

Have a Nice Day Mate

To be honest, i dont think the back a forth arguing takes away from the original post at all. People commenting on this thread keeps it at the top of the list which means alot more people might read the initial post. Which is all i can hope for.

Sure some will skim through the comment section but most are educated enough to decide which comments have value and which do not.

Have a nice day.

Well I wouldnt mind Arguing back and forth. But this has pretty much derailed into a Personal Quarrel which has entirely gone Off Topic.
And on the Chance that others might want to Discuss the actual Suggestion. This Quarrel might Dissuade many from reading further than that personal quarrel.

But well.
Its your Topic. So If you dont mind its not my Place to do so.

[SonofKitt]

Great news everyone!

From bobiks comments from recent AMA;

- Looks like buy orders will be coming soon - whether its similiar to the system proposed in this suggestion or not doesnt matter - it will be a great step foward.

- traderpost/market will be getting more functionality and be easier to use. Great news.

- Scarcity was indirectly dicussed. Not a word for word quote but bobik said something like "we will make it so that players will need to trade with each other more" hopefully this means some form of scarcity will be coming soon.

Thankyou to all of you who have commented which helps highlight to the devs that a lot of players think these changes need to happen to kickstart the economy and bring life back to the game as a whole.

[Sunleader]

Great news everyone!

From bobiks comments from recent AMA;

- Looks like buy orders will be coming soon - whether its similiar to the system proposed in this suggestion or not doesnt matter - it will be a great step foward.

- traderpost/market will be getting more functionality and be easier to use. Great news.

- Scarcity was indirectly dicussed. Not a word for word quote but bobik said something like "we will make it so that players will need to trade with each other more" hopefully this means some form of scarcity will be coming soon.

Thankyou to all of you who have commented which helps highlight to the devs that a lot of players think these changes need to happen to kickstart the economy and bring life back to the game as a whole.

1.
Thats Pretty Great.
This way I will finally be able to Sell Stuff Properly.

2.
Thats a Given... seriously.... 100 Stones storage and the sorting doesnt even work....

3.
Well.
I hope its more than the current Regional thing which has proven not really useful.
But I also hope its lesd then what you Suggested.

The Key is to make Ressources Scarce enough that unlike with current regionals you cant just Ride over and gather some.
But not so Scarce that it would warrant placing a Claim over there and gathering it on scale yourself.
Cause if either of these happens there wont be much trade...

[Khroma]

Great news everyone!

From bobiks comments from recent AMA;

- Looks like buy orders will be coming soon - whether its similiar to the system proposed in this suggestion or not doesnt matter - it will be a great step foward.

- traderpost/market will be getting more functionality and be easier to use. Great news.

- Scarcity was indirectly dicussed. Not a word for word quote but bobik said something like "we will make it so that players will need to trade with each other more" hopefully this means some form of scarcity will be coming soon.

Thankyou to all of you who have commented which helps highlight to the devs that a lot of players think these changes need to happen to kickstart the economy and bring life back to the game as a whole.

Good to hear, i hope it will lead the game into the right direction.

[OldmanPete]

Wow, I saw your other post from discord which lead me here but this is even better.

I really do hope they implement something like what you have suggested. As I said in the other post, big guild don't want anything to do with us. I can really see trade taking off which is great. Great Ideas

[Madden_55]

Some of the Points are nice... but Some of them would destroy the Game totaly....

For Example:

in that Climate Thing, Wood will only get Q100 in Arctic and Sub Arctic... That means if you life in the Desert you have to transport Wood over the whole map.

For Just 1 Mining Outpost for Exsample you need 4 Horsecarts full of Wood. That means as a Forester your whole Game Expierience is it to travel day in and day out over the Map for Hours!

i believe that noone is ready to waste his time like this.

------

For Some Recources the Idea is nice... Gold, Copper, Horses, etc... But for the Main recources like Wood, Iron, Stone, and Stuff its absolutely Bullshit. That wont help the Game to improve Traiding... It would just help to get the Game emptier then Ever...

[SonofKitt]

in that Climate Thing, Wood will only get Q100 in Arctic and Sub Arctic... That means if you life in the Desert you have to transport Wood over the whole map.

Yes, and No. With the current map, Yes. If a individual wanted 75-100 quality wood (not necessary for most buildings where the quality doesnt matter) they would need to trade for it.

But would everyone who wanted wood be travelling all the way to the north and back to get it? I think not. People, like in many other games, would become traders and buy cheap wood in the north and sell at a higher price where the demand is higher (central domain). Someone in central domain would see the wood at a price cheaper than what people buy for it in the south and transport the resources to the south.

This would only work with Buy and Sell orders and an overall better UI (something the devs had said will be implemented next major patch). Basically people would be doing shorter more frequent trades. Most Trader Posts would have every resource, it would just depend on the price and the safety of that area as to if you buy/sell from that trader post.

However, with the new map they have proposed, 4X the size, they could have 4-5 regions that have 100 Quality wood spread all over the map. Likewise with all the other resources.

For Just 1 Mining Outpost for Exsample you need 4 Horsecarts full of Wood. That means as a Forester your whole Game Expierience is it to travel day in and day out over the Map for Hours!

You are right, this would be too much. The answer is balance.
The developers would need to balance the current recipes/requirements. Outposts only cost 320 building logs now because the developers know that every guild has the ability to mass plant 100 quality Oak trees. If you bring in scarcity, players would complain the recipes are too much and developers would adjust accordingly. Well that's my opinion.

But even then, 4 horse carts of wood really isn't that much. Maybe increase the capacity of the horse cart by 1.5-2X and make it impossible for players to store stuff in them for long periods, i.e. the items decay inside if unhitched. (to prevent people just stacking them for storage.

But for the Main recources like Wood, Iron, Stone, and Stuff its absolutely Bullshit.

Again, balance. but please remember that in the current system, a 100 skill material prep person can shape 10Q stone into 40-50q quality shaped stone. A 100 skill constructor/architect can use those average quality rocks to build medium-high quality walls and crafting stations.

The first few months of building our base, we put 10Q rock into the walls then 10-30Q granite into our castle walls. Not one has been destroyed yet! The world keeps moving on.

i believe that noone is ready to waste his time like this.

It really depends on what many consider waste of time? I would love to have a reason to travel throughout the world more often and have interactions with other players outside my small town community. At the moment, a lot of people spend 100% of their time crafting, terraforming, building etc. Whats the point? And i have done plenty of the above, but my most enjoyable experiences by far have always been travelling arround the adjacent servers, just exploring and interacting with others. I think people would be a lot happy if they spent 80% of there time working, and 20% of there time trading/exploring etc. People dont do it now because there is no need and as you say, it is a waste of time. Which is a shame. Not everyone outside your town claim is bad and wants to kill you!

The system we have now without scarcity is not working.

But I see your concerns, it would be a problem if the recipes were not balanced slightly.

[Sunleader]

in that Climate Thing, Wood will only get Q100 in Arctic and Sub Arctic... That means if you life in the Desert you have to transport Wood over the whole map.

Yes, and No. With the current map, Yes. If a individual wanted 75-100 quality wood (not necessary for most buildings where the quality doesnt matter) they would need to trade for it.

But would everyone who wanted wood be travelling all the way to the north and back to get it? I think not. People, like in many other games, would become traders and buy cheap wood in the north and sell at a higher price where the demand is higher (central domain). Someone in central domain would see the wood at a price cheaper than what people buy for it in the south and transport the resources to the south.

This would only work with Buy and Sell orders and an overall better UI (something the devs had said will be implemented next major patch). Basically people would be doing shorter more frequent trades. Most Trader Posts would have every resource, it would just depend on the price and the safety of that area as to if you buy/sell from that trader post.

However, with the new map they have proposed, 4X the size, they could have 4-5 regions that have 100 Quality wood spread all over the map. Likewise with all the other resources.

For Just 1 Mining Outpost for Exsample you need 4 Horsecarts full of Wood. That means as a Forester your whole Game Expierience is it to travel day in and day out over the Map for Hours!

You are right, this would be too much. The answer is balance.
The developers would need to balance the current recipes/requirements. Outposts only cost 320 building logs now because the developers know that every guild has the ability to mass plant 100 quality Oak trees. If you bring in scarcity, players would complain the recipes are too much and developers would adjust accordingly. Well that's my opinion.

But even then, 4 horse carts of wood really isn't that much. Maybe increase the capacity of the horse cart by 1.5-2X and make it impossible for players to store stuff in them for long periods, i.e. the items decay inside if unhitched. (to prevent people just stacking them for storage.

But for the Main recources like Wood, Iron, Stone, and Stuff its absolutely Bullshit.

Again, balance. but please remember that in the current system, a 100 skill material prep person can shape 10Q stone into 40-50q quality shaped stone. A 100 skill constructor/architect can use those average quality rocks to build medium-high quality walls and crafting stations.

The first few months of building our base, we put 10Q rock into the walls then 10-30Q granite into our castle walls. Not one has been destroyed yet! The world keeps moving on.

i believe that noone is ready to waste his time like this.

It really depends on what many consider waste of time? I would love to have a reason to travel throughout the world more often and have interactions with other players outside my small town community. At the moment, a lot of people spend 100% of their time crafting, terraforming, building etc. Whats the point? And i have done plenty of the above, but my most enjoyable experiences by far have always been travelling arround the adjacent servers, just exploring and interacting with others. I think people would be a lot happy if they spent 80% of there time working, and 20% of there time trading/exploring etc. People dont do it now because there is no need and as you say, it is a waste of time. Which is a shame. Not everyone outside your town claim is bad and wants to kill you!

The system we have now without scarcity is not working.

But I see your concerns, it would be a problem if the recipes were not balanced slightly.

Problem with Trade in this example is what I told you before.

Wood is a Basic Resource.
Nobody will Pay you 20 Gold for a Horse Cart of Wood.
But even for 20 Gold I would not Bother taking a 2-3 Hour Hike with a Horse Cart full of Stuff.
Even less with the Risk of being Killed on the Way and getting absolutely nothing for it.

Thats why as I said before.
Most People wont even consider Trade as an Option here.
From the get go they will just put up a Claim in the Area and then get the Stuff themselves.

Meaning that only Large Guilds will have the ability to get such Stuff.
Smaller Groups will just end up Disadvantaged as they dont have the Capacity to get this Stuff and wont be able to Pay the Outragous Prices such stuff will have for Buying in their Area.

Thats why I told you to exclude Basic Ressources from this entirely. And just Focus on High End Ressources and Products instead.
For High End Ressources the Cargo Space Drops and the Prices Rise.
Thus allowing for a far Larger Margin of Profit and thus also allowing for actual Trade to Happen.
Because a Horse Cart fill of that would entail Prices like 200 Gold which others would actually Pay and for which someone might actually be Ready to take a Several Hour Long Hike with the Risk of being Killed as it would yield enough Profit for him to Hire some Escorts.




As an sidenote.
I doubt that a"Slight" Rebalancing Works here.
Basic Ressources are Basic Ressources.
If you Reduce the Requirement of such Ressources for Buildings.
The Price will Drop as well as its less Needed.
And as Transporting it will still not Yield sufficient Profit from others as that its Worth Trading and it also becomes easier to just put up a claim and get it yourself. You can guess what happens.





Just as your other System.
Your System here is Aimed at Realism.
But Realism does not work in a Game.
In Reality the guys Producing such Ressources where People that basicly worked for Basic Sustenance. They were one step above Slaves.
And while Country A was Poor and thus a few Copper Coins were enough to Life.
Country B was Rich and thus a few Silver Coins would not even be enough to Buy Food.

Hence the guy in Country B didnt care for Paying 1 Gold coin for that Ressource that was Shipped over.
Because to him that Gold Coin had little value and to the other guy that Gold Coin was worth traveling Months around the World.

And the Problem here is.
Throughout History this kind of thing only worked by having one very Poor Country and one very Rich Country.
Because only Poor Countrys actually Exported Basic Ressources.
Rich Countrys did never Export Ressources and instead only Export Finished Goods.


But thats also the Catch.
This is not Reality.
Its a Game.
Player A in the South will not work 3 Hours to Collect all that Wood and then another 3 Hours to Transport that Wood up North.
If he doesnt get some Decent Coin out of it.
But at the Price where this becomes viable for the Guy in the South.
It has long stopped being Viable for the Guy in the North.
Because nobody is going to Pay 500 Gold for his Final Product just because he had to Pay 50 Gold for each Load of Basic Ressources he needed for it.



Your System will simply not Work unless you drop the Idea of Common Ressources being Scarce.
Common Ressources are Common. Thats why they are called Common. They are not supposed to be Scarce and require you to Travel over the Entire Continent to get them.

The only thing it will do is Kill the Game because all the smaller Groups get ****** over by the System and cant get them anymore.

[SonofKitt]

Sunleader, once again you make many many assumptions which are based entirely from your opinion. You make statements as if they are facts, but they are just statements about how you predict potential changes. Everyone here knows your opinion, you have made it very clear with your 27 comments and 11000+ words.

I am trying to have a conversation with someone other than you about the topic. Please give him the respect and allow him to reply for himself. Madden, please continue if you are still checking this forum post.

[Sunleader]

Sunleader, once again you make many many assumptions which are based entirely from your opinion. You make statements as if they are facts, but they are just statements about how you predict potential changes. Everyone here knows your opinion, you have made it very clear with your 27 comments and 11000+ words.

I am trying to have a conversation with someone other than you about the topic. Please give him the respect and allow him to reply for himself. Madden, please continue if you are still checking this forum post.

I am impressed you bothered Counting.
Then again your Suggestion itself is not exactly much Smaller so I dont think you should throw around these Numbers at others.


And Mate.
I did not actually claim anything would be Factual in my Statement.
Nor do I talk like that.
The Reason it Sounds like that is because I am simply making Logical Conclusions which due to that Appear to sound like Facts even to you.
Our Brain is Wired to take it that way.
And your no Different in that. Your Brain as well understands these Conclusions and thus Feels like they are Facts.
Even if you wish to Deny that in favor of your Suggestion.
Not because I am bothering to claim them as Facts. But simply because your Brain Follows the Conclusions I make and thus determines them as the Logical Result.


You might Dislike that Result. But thats the Result you get when you Follow a Logical Approach.

Trade is something People do to Profit.
So Trade only happens when People can make a Profit.
But in a Game where the Crafting is almost 100% Ressource Based thus there being minimal Effort Required to Craft something once you got the Ressources.
The Final Product will never have such Value that the Crafter Selling it would get enough Money out of it to Pay for someone to Spend 3 Hours Traveling over the Map and get him these Ressources.

For your System to work like that.
You would not need to Decrease the Basic Ressources Required for Crafting.
You would need to make Crafting itself such an Effort Heavy Process that the Crafted Final Products become so Valuable in terms of Player Time that Players actually Pay such Vast Amounts of Money to Buy them that the Crafter can actually Afford to have others Spend 3 Hours Traveling over the Map to get him the Ressources to do it in a Higher Quality.

[SonofKitt]

The original post was 3900, nearly 3 times smaller than your "feedback"

[Sunleader]

The original post was 3900, nearly 3 times smaller than your "feedback"

Ok.
It seems you want to Push that Joke Harder than I expected.
Then lets be Serious on this for a Minute.


If I put your Original Post into a Word Counter.
It says.

7677 Words
44966 Characters
319 Sentences
350 Paragraphs

Which would come down to a whopping 31 Pages to be Printed if you wanted it outside the Internet.


Compared to that.
I just added all of my Posts in this Topic into the Word Counter.
And guess what.
My Entire Feedback in this Topic (Including this Post) actually has

6384 Words
35242 Characters
68 Sentences
563 Paragraphs

Which would come down to a nice 26 Pages to be Printed if I wanted to have it in my Hands.


So Nope.
Actually your Main Post still Beats me in Size

[SonofKitt]

Ah yes, those numbers are for my other post, about military outposts, my mistake.
Well I'm glad you have run the numbers for this post as well

You are still ahead overall, with original post words (11644) to "Sunleader feedback" words (17826) if you combined post posts.

[Sunleader]

Ah yes, those numbers are for my other post, about military outposts, my mistake.
Well I'm glad you have run the numbers for this post as well

You are still ahead overall, with original post words (11644) to "Sunleader feedback" words (17826) if you combined post posts.

Only if you count my Entire Feedback combined against your 2 Original Posts alone.

But you and several Others also Argued with me beyond that Original Post.
So I doubt I would stay ahead if you ran a fair Comparison.


Well then.
Dont you think you have taken this Joke far enough ?

Or are you that Desperate to keep me away from dismantling your Suggestion that you have to derail your own Topic now ?

[Madden_55]

(sry for my bad english)

i really try to understand you way of thinking... seriously!

But i still se some problems...

You mean 4 Horse Carts isnt that much... Do you play the Game by yourself? and do you did ride a Cart over multiple Servers? For Exsample... my Guild is known as a hugh Traiding Guild on Epleland and we have Claims on Server 9 and 34. When ride from one to another claim it takes 40-50 Minutes with a courier horse. When the Time comes that Wood needs to be transportet you can change the courier horse into a horse cart and multiply the Time by minimum 4. Because it is slow... very slow...

Further! at the moment you have to mess with too much bugs... crossing a server line with a horse cart und driving "near" (not IN) Water results into a dismount and respawn the Cart deep in the See ( happend to me multiple Time and i still can show you the Carts to proof it ).

As you said... not everyone in the World wants to kill you... there are always nice guys too. BUT that means not that there are no bandits. At the Moment we have a hugh problem with Bandits... and doe to the Server Rules you cant do anything against it... they kill our horses... we kill them... 30 minutes later they have retrained the fighting skills and come to attack us again... So the Only Faction who really loses is the PvE faction.

But one Point Back to the Wood...

As i said i am main Forester 100... As you say i understand it that way, when i plant trees in the desert it will only get Q25... no matter if i have Skill at 100 and use a Q100 sapling... the Regions rips it down to the cap. That means. that i am Forced(!) to leave my Home to do a good Job and get Q100 Wood or to hang my Job on the Nail... (german saying).


Still... Dont understand me wrong... on most of the rescources i am totaly with you... im a member of a traiding Guild and i would really like to see more traiding in the World...

I Think. The Fokus should lay on the regional reccources that are in the Game right now... For Hughe Guilds its way to easy to get them.. Like you said with multiple Claims and (as i think the biggest problem) the countless number of Outposts...

First of all There is a absolute need of cap for Outpost per Guildclaim... There are Guilds with more then 20 Outposts over the whole Map... So they get Recources for doing nothing. In my point of view there should be a Cap by 1 Outpost per Claim Tier... so a hugh Guild can only place 4 Outposts so they have to think about what they really want and need. that would improve Traiding too.

Next Point... Multiple Claims... if you have 10 Chars on your Account you can Run a Guild claim totaly by your Own... at Tier 3 i only need to make 20 Staffs a RL Day to Pay the Claim costs... Thats nothing... and thats why Guilds can have Guild-outposts runned by one or two guys from the Guild.

[SonofKitt]

(sry for my bad english)

Your English is 1000x better than my german! And I can understand you.

You mean 4 Horse Carts isnt that much... Do you play the Game by yourself? and do you did ride a Cart over multiple Servers? For Exsample... my Guild is known as a hugh Traiding Guild on Epleland and we have Claims on Server 9 and 34. When ride from one to another claim it takes 40-50 Minutes with a courier horse. When the Time comes that Wood needs to be transportet you can change the courier horse into a horse cart and multiply the Time by minimum 4. Because it is slow... very slow...

Firstly, I think 300 buildings logs for a mine shaft is too much.
A: I'm in a guild of 5-10 active players, used to be 10x those numbers.


Do you travel (on horse-cart) the whole journey(server 9-34) on slate roads that are correctly terraformed? or on grass? I think roads are too much effort to build currently, so I made made a few suggestions in the post to make them much easier to build. I know horsecarts go faster on good flat slate(maybe marble aswell) paved roads but I think they could go even faster. Not faster than a horse, but faster than they are now.

The developers have said that they are bringing in Buy Orders in the next major patch. (Which is great!) So you might not even need to travel at all. You could put a Buy Order for 300 Building Logs and other people could travel to you with the building logs. They could be solo foresters, smalls or large guilds or just traders who move from place to place that sell the wood to you. You could have 15 people/groups that contribute to the 300 building logs you finally get.



I kind of imagine solo guilds/small guilds selling there wood to a nearby large guild or well known trader state and then traders travel between the trader states buying low and selling high. Kind of how it used to work back in feudal times. Bulk Traders wouldn't necessarily go to each claim individually. But if you put up a Buy Order, your local hub would see this and try to fill your order through either there own warehouses or by putting up a Buy Order of there own at a slightly lower price. Traders travelling south from the North would see this buy order and make sure they have some wood, not necessarily 300 Buildings logs, but maybe 6 high quality Oak logs in storage (72 Building Logs). Eventually, enough wood would make it to you. Supply and Demand. The Traders will then fill up on Crops, Iron, Animals or animal productions and head North to sell it where the price is higher.

Further! at the moment you have to mess with too much bugs... crossing a server line with a horse cart und driving "near" (not IN) Water results into a dismount and respawn the Cart deep in the See ( happend to me multiple Time and i still can show you the Carts to proof it ).

True - But the bugs are much less common than they used to be. You cant do much about this. I know what you mean, but the only way suggestions wouldn't cause bugs is to not suggest anything. Bugs will happen, and the devs will try fix. Hopefully NixOS might reduce all the bugs.

As you said... not everyone in the World wants to kill you... there are always nice guys too. BUT that means not that there are no bandits. At the Moment we have a hugh problem with Bandits... and doe to the Server Rules you cant do anything against it... they kill our horses... we kill them... 30 minutes later they have retrained the fighting skills and come to attack us again... So the Only Faction who really loses is the PvE faction.

PvE players could do ZERO travelling if they dont want to travel far. They could focus 100% on gathering/crafting. I think most PvE players will be travelling to and from a local trade hub to buy and sell. They could get delivery, but I think most would probably go themselves to save on coin.

I also think that it is likely that the current bandits (people who like PvP and dislike crafting) are going to become either the Traders or more likely the Mercenary Guards for the traders. Yes some will still be bandits, you can not stop this. But maybe its best if 90% of them are fighting each other for meaningful gameplay reasons, apposed to picking on people for the sake of it. I.e. Bandit v Guards. This is my prediction, but I could be wrong, you don't know until you test it in a beta.

I can see "Bands"of people, small and large, who simply just move from town to town buying and selling and defending there transport resources from bandits so to not lose profit. Thinking "Abella Trading Company" or "Hudsons Bay Trading Company" or "East India Trading Company"

So the Only Faction who really loses is the PvE faction.

At the moment, small guilds or solo players are not worth much or anything to large guilds other than just being a lag generator. But with scarcity, I think people time becomes a valuable resource, and individuals could be able to contribute the greater economy/trade/market in a way that they cannot now. Well that is the hope. I think I would like to do a couple of months as a lone wolf forester in the northern woods. At the moment, that play-style is a waste of time and no one needs wood. All i could do is sell staves to "The Crown" who seems to need many staves... ha

As i said i am main Forester 100... As you say i understand it that way, when i plant trees in the desert it will only get Q25... no matter if i have Skill at 100 and use a Q100 sapling... the Regions rips it down to the cap. That means. that i am Forced(!) to leave my Home to do a good Job and get Q100 Wood or to hang my Job on the Nail... (german saying).

This is a main problem. I understand this one and I can understand why certain players would not like this. Foresters/miners/animal lore breeders would be most hurt I think. You would still need/use 25Q Iron/wood/leathers for items/buildings where the quality doesnt matter. You could still use 25Q wood for charcoal and repair kits etc.

Secondary/Tertiary crafters would not be as affected and could buy in high quality resources for the 1-2% of top quality armors/tools and weapons.

But yes, some people would have to make changes/decisions. I dont know how you could implement any concept of meaningful scarcity without causing a situation like the above. Maybe with the new larger map, they might have 4-5 places were people can produce high quality wood. Plus with the new map, people would be starting fresh and could setup in a region which had high quality wood if they wanted to be a forester.

Starting a fresh base is something I have done 10-15 times throughout LIF:YO, LIF:MMO Closed BETA and now LIF:MMO Open BETA and I have immensely enjoyed it every time. I think some people will be bummed initially but then might enjoy the change of scenery. Some, a small percentage, will hate it though, I understand what you mean.

im a member of a traiding Guild and i would really like to see more traiding in the World...

Same, I think if the developers fix the economy/trade before going free-to-play (if they do) then they will retain many new players and bring back many.

I Think. The Fokus should lay on the regional reccources that are in the Game right now... For Hughe Guilds its way to easy to get them.. Like you said with multiple Claims and (as i think the biggest problem) the countless number of Outposts...

First of all There is a absolute need of cap for Outpost per Guildclaim... There are Guilds with more then 20 Outposts over the whole Map... So they get Recources for doing nothing. In my point of view there should be a Cap by 1 Outpost per Claim Tier... so a hugh Guild can only place 4 Outposts so they have to think about what they really want and need. that would improve Traiding too.

Next Point... Multiple Claims... if you have 10 Chars on your Account you can Run a Guild claim totaly by your Own... at Tier 3 i only need to make 20 Staffs a RL Day to Pay the Claim costs... Thats nothing... and thats why Guilds can have Guild-outposts runned by one or two guys from the Guild.

I agree completely on all those points. I think Outposts could kill the game. It really takes a lot of point out of playing for a lot of people. I mean, it used to take me hours to mine regional Iron Ore. Now we have 1000s and 1000s of the stuff.

Herbs used to be hard to make, we had 100 herb gardens that took a lot of regionals to build. We would have to plant each one, which would use up water and fertiliser. Now, we don't even used them anymore, whats the point. People from my guild don't even log in anymore because theres no point... the outposts are producing all the good stuff we need.

They really need to be balanced and as you say. The sheer number of them and the amount of resources that they are pumping out is out of control. It is really really bad for the economy.

I think someone needs to make a separate post in the forum specific ally dedicated to talking about the negative impact of outposts and the long term effects. You are 100% right on all the points you made above about outposts. And I think it, as you say, it should be more of an initial focus than this suggestion, especially as they can quickly add these restraints in without much effort. I.e. reduce production rates, introduce the same chance of getting a regional as people who mine. Not all Iron ore should be regional, it should be like 10-15% in my opinion. Cap how many outposts a guild can control.