Life is Feudal Official Forum

[Aldebaran]

Devs, Moderators, and LIF Community,

Hoping to be as brief as possible I feel the need to relate a troublesome recent incident that can have effects upon the game long term. Please bear with me as I relate this concern and its effects.

I feel this forum and the Steam LIF forums are two separate entities, Steam is a community of gamers, whereas this forum is the official games corporate forum.

That being said, I feel the recently announced naming and shaming rule is very counterproductive, even toxic in and of itself longterm, especially on Steam where open advice between players is shared regardless of loyalties to any particular game; if a player feels something is flawed or wrong he will speak his mind about his experiences to another gamer. As customers in a gamers interface, we are not used to fearing the ban hammer, and should not.

Two days ago moderator Saxxon was visiting a private server on Twitch, the server owner and his helpers announced that fact in a thread on Steam:

http://steamcommunity.com/app/290080/discussions/#p7

Seeing that thread, and since the last 3 servers I have invested many hours on had become corrupted and unstable, we were looking for a new server to call home and visited the server in that thread, Isle of Corvin, as many other had as well. On Twitch we were invited to the server and to make a long story short were slaughtered and griefed upon arrival. It was a trap.

I then went to that very same thread (which has been heavily moderated and deleted by Saxxon since then) and reported exactly what they were doing and that they were not in fact looking for players but were instead looking for victims, and to avoid the scam as it were. I did not rant, I did not curse and carry on I simply related precisely what they were doing, and how I felt about it. To which many replies I received before Saxxon deleted it thanked me for it and/or showed some sympathy and friend requests.

I also noted in that warning post (also since deleted by Saxxon) that Saxxon as an official should not be singling out specific private servers that he is friendly with, that there are many other private servers that are run much more maturely that could use some official attention like that.

The naming and shaming rule must have gone up here that same day or very shortly before, unknown to me at the time.

Saxxon gave me a warning and locked the thread and deleted my warning to the other gamers.

Today I logged in to Steam to see I have now been permabanned from Steam forums and it cites a completely defferent post I made to a different thread specifically asking which servers are more or less griefer filled and I had replied honestly as to my experiences, as it should be on the Steam community of gamers.

I am 43 years old. I was a founding member of Stratics. Beta tested long before "pay to alpha" was even conceived: titles such as UO, EVE and many others.

I was myself a moderator on Stratics and elsewhere for many years. I, of all people, completely understand the stresses upon moderators and the influence of emotion when you want so much to see something be successful.

I have not once, ever on my nearly 30 years of hardcore gaming been banned from a forum of any kind anywhere and to add insult to injury, from a game forum I paid to be a part of. Not even when gaming was 33 baud and C64!

As you can see by my join date here, I have been a member of this forum as well and have followed and supported LIF'es development for quite some time, long before the Steam release, never a problem.

On launch day on Steam many threads by players appeared complaining about the price, frustrated Saxxon called one potential customer that day "an immature child".

Is that not naming and shaming? Yes it is, and it is toxic and unbecoming of a moderator, just as toxic as is this selectively applied new rule. This is coming directly from the mouth of a nearly lifelong moderator myself.


Now that you know my Steam profile is Valmorgan, permabanned yesterday for a rule Saxxon himself has broken, a new rule unknown to me at the time, for warning a gaming community in the appropriate thread for such things, you can go ahead and permaban me here too, I just ask that you think about the effect on the game this kind of overmoderation has on a game I personally love, followed and supported, and have paid for.

That said, if banned here too and the permaban on Steam is not lifted, I ask respectfully for a refund as I am effectively cut off from an aspect of the community, making the experience far less fun.

I also ask that you review Saxxons role as moderator.

[Uno]

Normally I want to hear both sides before giving any judgement in a matter, but one thing I can comment right now: banning without warnings is without precedence and should be rethought immediately.
Edit: the post from Saxxon mentions warnings.

[Jalpha]

Could this have been handled via a PM to one of the Devs or a head Mod?

That way you wouldn't be committing a bannable offence, for a second time, and would stand a chance at an official response without creating a public scene which could have a negative influence on the growth of the community.

Just sayin...

[Aldebaran]

Normally I want to hear both sides before giving any judgement in a matter, but one thing I can comment right now: banning without warnings is without precedence and should be rethought immediately.
Edit: the post from Saxxon mentions warnings.

He did warn me, not me specifically but he placed the new rule in the thread, but as I logged in today I am banned for a similar post to an appropriate thread posted at or very near the same time as the warning thread.

[Alfie]

To be honest if any form of name + shame is forbidden then so should any form of private YO server advertisement.

I don't know why you guys don't create a forum under the "LIF: YOUR OWN SERVERS" section called "Server General" and lift the name + shame rule for it.

[VindicteMortis]

But the name and shame rule is pretty standard for most other games and online communities so suck it up and stop complaining.

[Bobik]

Heya,

I'll talk with Saxxon as soon as I can to learn his part of that story. So far it looks a bit harsh to me or maybe some mistake or misunderstanding was a cause of that.

We'll sort it out.

[WDMeaun]

Story..

I only reply just to ask you wether you are talking about UO Stratics.. or something similar to that..
I used those resources so often back in the day for UO, that if you are related to it, I should give you my thanks.

Topic related.. I don't know the whole story.. but as a company representative, you should never, ever, critize customers.
I've had my experience (32 years atm).. Where you first learn to code without using curse words. (at my current job, they havent learned this, which is funny, but not too professional.)
After a while I also put up a lot of customer services and it can be incredibly hard not to critize certain people, but you really should not.

Believe me, I have had my share of funny client-related stories, which I mostly will not share.

If community members start by blaming new customers, or actually calling them names/immature.. You should really look into it; either give the guy/girl some extra training, or get someone else to do it.

[RowdyGowdy]

[Crusader316]

I saw your post in the steam forum. I did not see anything wrong in what you said. I can't believe your thread was closed let alone that you were banned.

You must be allowed to politely write about your experiances with particular servers and guilds, even if it happens to be negative.

Edit: I can only speak on the first few posts OP made in the thread, in which there was no shaming of individuals. I did not see any of the further posts made by the OP.

[Bobik]

Well, after reviewing everything I'd say that Saxxon is kinda right.

I agree that action were harsh, but there were like 4 warnings prior to that, and a public post asking to stop that behavior and that didn't help at all.

Considering that current issue is escalated into public discussion of moderators actions, instead of polite private discussion with Saxxon himself or with me and considering all those those "refund", "cut off" emotional words, I'm even more on the side of Saxxon.

But, if Aldebaran do not mind to make sincere apologies and promises to follow the rules, I don't see a single reason why we should keep him banned. And as a token of friendship, I think Saxxon can apologize too though I don't see anything THAT wrong in his actions

Peace and love

[WDMeaun]

Well, after reviewing everything I'd say that Saxxon is kinda right.

I agree that action were harsh, but there were like 4 warnings prior to that, and a public post asking to stop that behavior and that didn't help at all.

Considering that current issue is escalated into public discussion of moderators actions, instead of polite private discussion with Saxxon himself or with me and considering all those those "refund", "cut off" emotional words, I'm even more on the side of Saxxon.

But, if Aldebaran do not mind to make sincere apologies and promises to follow the rules, I don't see a single reason why we should keep him banned. And as a token of friendship, I think Saxxon can apologize too though I don't see anything THAT wrong in his actions

Peace and love

I would like to compliment you on this sentiment.
It doesn't matter where/who is to blame, what matters is the future and how to solve it.
Responses, like the ones made by Gentry, never help the situation and only helps escalating.
(please, no more 'suck it up' posts.. = contra-productive and doesn't even help your own cause)

[Aldebaran]

I only reply just to ask you wether you are talking about UO Stratics.. or something similar to that..
I used those resources so often back in the day for UO, that if you are related to it, I should give you my thanks.

Yes, the same, I was mod then lead mod for the emerging MMORPG genre back then, which included UO, Origin (UO2) which was bought out by EA then cancelled breaking our hearts, later Shadowbane, Dark Age of Camelot, to which I was closed beta invited to every one of them and many more.

Over those years we became quite close with Lord Brittish (Richard Garriot) and to this day every once in a while we will get emails. I have my original Ultima Online beta cd in a frame with a poster of Moonglow in my game room still hanging

I believe I played back then on an AMD Athlon 128 mhz , as I write with on a watercooled i7 and sli.

Ahhh memories, good to see an old schooler around brother!

[Aldebaran]

Well, after reviewing everything I'd say that Saxxon is kinda right.

I agree that action were harsh, but there were like 4 warnings prior to that, and a public post asking to stop that behavior and that didn't help at all.

Considering that current issue is escalated into public discussion of moderators actions, instead of polite private discussion with Saxxon himself or with me and considering all those those "refund", "cut off" emotional words, I'm even more on the side of Saxxon.

But, if Aldebaran do not mind to make sincere apologies and promises to follow the rules, I don't see a single reason why we should keep him banned. And as a token of friendship, I think Saxxon can apologize too though I don't see anything THAT wrong in his actions

Peace and love

I can't apologize on steam as the ban has me locked out, so I will here:

I really was unaware of the rule and the public warnings prior pertaining to the rule at the time of posting. I do apologize and my intention never was to cause any disruption.

I worry about the rule as it protects griefers and silences or keeps in the dark those who seek to avoid them. It may even hamper resistance efforts to rally against them as in doing so would be to break the rule. But, a rule is a rule, and I will follow it.

To Bobik, I apologize as well, the load must be beyond incredible at this point and this another distraction. Thank you.

[Saxxon]

I really was unaware of the rule and the public warnings prior pertaining to the rule at the time of posting. I do apologize and my intention never was to cause any disruption.

I hope we can move forward from this issue and glad everyone understands the importance of the rules and keeping a healthy and productive forum. My banning of your account was based on a rule violation and that rule had to be quickly added and announced due to the high volume of these types of threads that were beginning to show up as a result of the GM tools being released. It may have seemed rather harsh and my apologies but I am glad you understand the issue and reasons. The team looks forward to your ability to participate in the steam forums once more.

[Bobik]

issue is resolved, let's move on.

Can I return to development, please?

[StormCorpsFinest]

:good: issue is resolved, let's move on.

Can I return to development, please?

Please do. We would like to see some patches soon!

[Aldebaran]

Unfortunately the unban did not work, I tried submitting a support ticket to steam yesterday, and have not received a reply from them.


Sirs,

I was permabanned from the Life is Feudal forums, after discussion with the moderator and devs of the game, it was discovered the ban was in error, and the ban lifted, I no longer get the red permaban , now in the field where one would normally post replys I get:

"Posting privileges: Only members of Life is Feudal: Your Own are allowed to post in this forum."

I have subscribed/unsubscribed from forum, logged in and out of Steam, nothing works, I also messaged the moderator via the official website forum:

Sent: Today, 00:34
by valmorgan930

Tried restarting Steam, unsubscribing and re-subscribing to hub, forum, I no longer get the red permaban banner but I cannot reply or post still:

"Posting privileges: Only members of Life is Feudal: Your Own are allowed to post in this forum"

Sent: Today, 01:08
From: Saxxon
To: valmorgan930

That is weird and beyond my control unfortunately. The only thing I can do is ban and unban. You are unbanned but I have no explanation why you cannot post. My best guess is to try steam support. Sorry I cannot do more from my end.

Thank you for any assistance
2 Message by you on Wed, 1st Oct 2014 10:06 pm
Submitted Steam support ticket, awaiting response.

Ticket number 5642-QPAS-8883
Category Forum Issues > Forum Issues
Email morechromeplease@gmail.com
Steam Account Login Name valmorgan930

[WDMeaun]

I only reply just to ask you wether you are talking about UO Stratics.. or something similar to that..
I used those resources so often back in the day for UO, that if you are related to it, I should give you my thanks.

Yes, the same, I was mod then lead mod for the emerging MMORPG genre back then, which included UO, Origin (UO2) which was bought out by EA then cancelled breaking our hearts, later Shadowbane, Dark Age of Camelot, to which I was closed beta invited to every one of them and many more.

Over those years we became quite close with Lord Brittish (Richard Garriot) and to this day every once in a while we will get emails. I have my original Ultima Online beta cd in a frame with a poster of Moonglow in my game room still hanging

I believe I played back then on an AMD Athlon 128 mhz , as I write with on a watercooled i7 and sli.

Ahhh memories, good to see an old schooler around brother!

I am going completely off topic, but I just love to see that.
Have had 2 games with loving online memories: Ultima Online and Starsiege: Tribes.
(during that time Counterstrikes and such started to come and online communities went to waste.. in my experience)

With friends we would spot out the right time to collect that 1 unique drop, or figure out how to skill up to get what.
I still can picture UO Stratics in my mind (I think it's still online, but besides the point).

I really love to see LiF do well, because they implemented the same skill system.
I'm quessing it wont be the same as UO with those rare drops, dungeons and what not, but still.

Never could get interested in the newer MMORPG.. always considered World of Warcraft to be Ultima Online's ugly sister. (I prefer UO's style over WOW any time).

[Aldebaran]

I am going completely off topic, but I just love to see that.
Have had 2 games with loving online memories: Ultima Online and Starsiege: Tribes.
(during that time Counterstrikes and such started to come and online communities went to waste.. in my experience)

Yeah That's why I'm here too, nothing has ever come close to that unique magic that Ultima had, and, for the first time in ages I think LIF does have the perfect ingredients to have UO's magic and more.

Also I think Bobiks soft caring open hearted and driven visionary nature will endear just like LB's eccentric dreamer innocence was electrifying.

In place I truly believe are the things necessary for legends to be born and the fabric of elements are so hard to communicate when watching games develop.

Never could get interested in the newer MMORPG.. always considered World of Warcraft to be Ultima Online's ugly sister. (I prefer UO's style over WOW any time).

Shadowbane was tbh, it grew directly from the PK/carebear arguments from UO that ironically took place on my forums. I think LIF after all the attempts to find the solution through the years may have struck upon the recipe to finally solve the riddle!

To this day I never played and refuse to even *look* in Shadowbanes direction, or any of the later carebear progeny, I was a ranking officer in AoS (corp por! Vas Flam!!)

I won't even buy any title made by Electric Arts because of the very cruel way bought out then killed UO2. People actually literally cried when that happened.

Stratics ownership did not keep up with advancements and eventually IGN, later even Steam completely eclipsed it. But none ever had that community soul ever again, there was real love and a bond between moderators, and community then, which is precisely why I am hurting so bad still being locked out of the forums!!! I'm here to relive the community more than play!

[WDMeaun]

I am going completely off topic, but I just love to see that.
Have had 2 games with loving online memories: Ultima Online and Starsiege: Tribes.
(during that time Counterstrikes and such started to come and online communities went to waste.. in my experience)

Yeah That's why I'm here too, nothing has ever come close to that unique magic that Ultima had, and, for the first time in ages I think LIF does have the perfect ingredients to have UO's magic and more.

Also I think Bobiks soft caring open hearted and driven visionary nature will endear just like LB's eccentric dreamer innocence was electrifying.

In place I truly believe are the things necessary for legends to be born and the fabric of elements are so hard to communicate when watching games develop.

Never could get interested in the newer MMORPG.. always considered World of Warcraft to be Ultima Online's ugly sister. (I prefer UO's style over WOW any time).

Shadowbane was tbh, it grew directly from the PK/carebear arguments from UO that ironically took place on my forums. I think LIF after all the attempts to find the solution through the years may have struck upon the recipe to finally solve the riddle!

To this day I never played and refuse to even *look* in Shadowbanes direction, or any of the later carebear progeny, I was a ranking officer in AoS (corp por! Vas Flam!!)

I won't even buy any title made by Electric Arts because of the very cruel way bought out then killed UO2. People actually literally cried when that happened.

Stratics ownership did not keep up with advancements and eventually IGN, later even Steam completely eclipsed it. But none ever had that community soul ever again, there was real love and a bond between moderators, and community then, which is precisely why I am hurting so bad still being locked out of the forums!!! I'm here to relive the community more than play!

I actually didnt know about UO2, but I already never bought anything from EA Games.
They just don't have the vision and soul to make something true.

Corp por.. sweet memories of that little black doodle.
I also remember having to watch out for red names with 10-20 other grey names.. a well known murderer and his ally healers (who became grey by healing him)..
My character was a warrior mage for what I remember and eventually got sold for.. dunno 40 bucks? (sold by a friend actually)

If LiF:MMO would incorporate UO's gems.. Heaven's door will be reached.
(I would like development to focus on YO atm, but that besides)


The first thing I was thinking about this game, when I read about building your own houses and such..
uh oh.. hopefully they wont run out of space, like in UO.
I spent days finding a spot for my house back then!

Forgot the name of the town, but those events, when a town got overrun by undead and such.. incredibly fun.
I think it had a mummy boss figure, who got a lot of players chasing him.

I don't think LiF:MMO will be really like UO.. but the similarities between them are magic nonetheless

[Aldebaran]

I actually didnt know about UO2, but I already never bought anything from EA Games.
They just don't have the vision and soul to make something true.

It was a beancounter at EA that made the decision as well... half way through alpha development! What blows my mind today was Origin way back then was honestly very much like titles we see coming out today. 1/3 person, graphics that were next gen, had all the lore of Ultima... I mean it really was a stunner and truly way ahead of the time.

It was not unlike the stories you hear about how oil and gas companies buy up genius' blueprints for 100 mpg carburetors so they can just shelf the 'print and dominate market share. All about market share, not about the heart, vision or the customer. Literally EA had other titles and plans they wanted to have a greater market share of, didn't want to self compete, and that was the sole reason behind the hostile and cold calculated maneuver.

They shot themselves in the foot forever because really who buys EA crap now? Sunday football PlayStation drool cup candidates. Anyone who had anything to do with UO back in the day takes a huge dump on EA any chance they get... and that over time adds up like acid on the skin.

Also one reason why Rust has lost my loyalty, even if it was in jest Garys comment totally turned me off and I'm done with them permanently.

To me gaming is more art than business, like a song and a romance between artists and the fans. Remember that song you heard 10 years ago that when you hear it, you feel your surroundings of the first time, smell the air of the first time and its like a snapshot of time? Same thing, that's art, that's what generates loyalty and passion and that's the rocket fuel behind legends.

it's very much like how I grew up on Metallica only to watch them pose out and 360 flip with the "Black" album which I literally tossed out the window of my car going down the highway after just two songs played. Right out the window. Lose your soul, put "mainstream" and market share over those who made you who you are in the first place - lose my loyalty. Romance is killed.

My character was a warrior mage for what I remember and eventually got sold for.. dunno 40 bucks? (sold by a friend actually)

Remember when true black dye tubs were worth serious amounts of money and they were originally a bug?

If LiF:MMO would incorporate UO's gems.. Heaven's door will be reached.
(I would like development to focus on YO atm, but that besides)

I'm no expert by any means at all, no real formal schooling in theory or code and all I have ever done noteworthy online was be part of Stratics, get to meet some legendary personalities, in the grand scheme of things really that's nothing, offline I owned a gaming PC company and built killer custom pc's long before Alienware existed, even Falcon NW, and was partner with the head of Ford's IT in a networking company that didn't last very long ... but to me I think devs working on YO is actually working on the MMO, one fits inside the other like a Russian doll so working on one enhances the backbone of the other as far as I can tell. Elegant really, if that's the case.

The first thing I was thinking about this game, when I read about building your own houses and such..
uh oh.. hopefully they wont run out of space, like in UO.
I spent days finding a spot for my house back then!

That's a really good question.

Forgot the name of the town, but those events, when a town got overrun by undead and such.. incredibly fun.
I think it had a mummy boss figure, who got a lot of players chasing him.

The cemetery outside of Moonglow

I don't think LiF:MMO will be really like UO.. but the similarities between them are magic nonetheless

*nods*

[WDMeaun]

I actually didnt know about UO2, but I already never bought anything from EA Games.
They just don't have the vision and soul to make something true.

It was a beancounter at EA that made the decision as well... half way through alpha development! What blows my mind today was Origin way back then was honestly very much like titles we see coming out today. 1/3 person, graphics that were next gen, had all the lore of Ultima... I mean it really was a stunner and truly way ahead of the time.

It was not unlike the stories you hear about how oil and gas companies buy up genius' blueprints for 100 mpg carburetors so they can just shelf the 'print and dominate market share. All about market share, not about the heart, vision or the customer. Literally EA had other titles and plans they wanted to have a greater market share of, didn't want to self compete, and that was the sole reason behind the hostile and cold calculated maneuver.

They shot themselves in the foot forever because really who buys EA crap now? Sunday football PlayStation drool cup candidates. Anyone who had anything to do with UO back in the day takes a huge dump on EA any chance they get... and that over time adds up like acid on the skin.

Also one reason why Rust has lost my loyalty, even if it was in jest Garys comment totally turned me off and I'm done with them permanently.

To me gaming is more art than business, like a song and a romance between artists and the fans. Remember that song you heard 10 years ago that when you hear it, you feel your surroundings of the first time, smell the air of the first time and its like a snapshot of time? Same thing, that's art, that's what generates loyalty and passion and that's the rocket fuel behind legends.

it's very much like how I grew up on Metallica only to watch them pose out and 360 flip with the "Black" album which I literally tossed out the window of my car going down the highway after just two songs played. Right out the window. Lose your soul, put "mainstream" and market share over those who made you who you are in the first place - lose my loyalty. Romance is killed.

My character was a warrior mage for what I remember and eventually got sold for.. dunno 40 bucks? (sold by a friend actually)

Remember when true black dye tubs were worth serious amounts of money and they were originally a bug?

If LiF:MMO would incorporate UO's gems.. Heaven's door will be reached.
(I would like development to focus on YO atm, but that besides)

I'm no expert by any means at all, no real formal schooling in theory or code and all I have ever done noteworthy online was be part of Stratics, get to meet some legendary personalities, in the grand scheme of things really that's nothing, offline I owned a gaming PC company and built killer custom pc's long before Alienware existed, even Falcon NW, and was partner with the head of Ford's IT in a networking company that didn't last very long ... but to me I think devs working on YO is actually working on the MMO, one fits inside the other like a Russian doll so working on one enhances the backbone of the other as far as I can tell. Elegant really, if that's the case.

The first thing I was thinking about this game, when I read about building your own houses and such..
uh oh.. hopefully they wont run out of space, like in UO.
I spent days finding a spot for my house back then!

That's a really good question.

Forgot the name of the town, but those events, when a town got overrun by undead and such.. incredibly fun.
I think it had a mummy boss figure, who got a lot of players chasing him.

The cemetery outside of Moonglow

I don't think LiF:MMO will be really like UO.. but the similarities between them are magic nonetheless

*nods*

Yess.. Moonglow was the name.

It seems that you are on the same level as me. (or otherway 'round, as I'm a bit younger).

Lost interest in Rust myself too, because Garry's comments on Minecraft's selling out and other general remarks.
He said beforehand that he will sell out, whenever given the chance.
(Besides I really doubt in Garry's skills.. he doesn't look to be someone, who can actually do it himself)

Just like movies, music.. games are indeed art.
You give a bit of culture to the world.. and yes, it's more than okay to make a living out of it..
However.. companies like EA.. deny these additions to culture for simple cash.
That's one sure way of losing one's soul.

That's also why I dislike Hollywood's approach on piracy..
Piracy sure is bad, but it's more than possible to make your content available to all for afforable prices.
The business only made other deals in order to get more profits, which denies sharing culture with the world.
(believe me.. the popular media broadcasts can easily be made available worldwide with keeping profits high)
Denying culture for simple extra profits.. should almost be made criminal.

[Aldebaran]

I'm still locked out of steam, it's been several days, no reply from steam support.

Can someone please contact them and find out why?


This shows how the post field is locked Click Here for Larger:



This shows how I am locked out of subscribing to the steam forum Click Here for Larger:


Please help!