Life is Feudal Official Forum

[Mortimer]

Hello everyone.

I would like to have a discussion on the skill tree's and if in fact they are needed.

As it is now, a person can't simply join the game and start doing what he wants - he has to grind through a dozen of skills before he can even start doing his job. It might not be as noticeable on a x10 server most people are playing at, but a lot of us are playing on x1 servers, which is the mmo version global rate - and the progression is dreadful.

As much as some of the trees make sense like prospector -> armorsmith, forester -> siege master, nature's lore -> alchemist, some of them just don't make that much sense, and it's a pain to go through.

Farming, now that's a skill tree that's too much of a challenge for most. We went with 160 traps before we even had coops, to make it easier for our farmer soon to be animal lore master hopefully - and I'm unsure if that amount is even going to be enough. And for what really?

Honestly hunting should of been in that tree while animal lore should be a free skill. That way it wouldn't hinder every starting out group from actually getting leather, getting weapons, getting rope for crossbows ultimately stopping people from having fun and organized battles. It also makes more sense since half of what procuration does can be done with resources from hunted animals.

tl;dr - anyone else thinks that animal lore should switch places with hunting in the farm tree?

[Vultcha]

i would love a skill "tree" that wasn't so much a skill stack of rulers...

could have farming and animal lore as the same level, both leading to procuration (since procuration is used for both products)

...but since this is unlikely to happen, i'm ok with the current progression mostly. i don't think that swapping hunting and lore would make much sense... but i think the skill will be much more manageable and rewarding once other animals are introduced to the game... right now it's a tedious and basically dead skill... and i can see why people would want to bypass it entirely.

[Maegfaer]

This can be modded. I made the first version of my mod yesterday and you can decouple and recouple skills as you please. I personally made this configuration:



To be honest, I think playing at the MMO rate of progression is insane, considering the merely semi-persistent nature of the current servers. I put my new Life is Balanced server at a 6 multiplier.

[Mortimer]

Thats one way to go about it, good job! Too bad you left animal lore as the wall that stops others from advancing but oh well, you can't have it all.

[Maegfaer]

Thats one way to go about it, good job! Too bad you left animal lore as the wall that stops others from advancing but oh well, you can't have it all.

I made Bone Glue boiling part of Animal Lore.

The added bonus is that the Mallet is more easily accesible, giving a better way to train Construction (Paving roads). That way there also won't be fence spam to level the first 15 Construction levels.

[Janissary_ML]

Skill cap limit very stupid thing. Why you put a limit barrier to players skills. Very terrible case. Please Bobik share a patch for this problem. Thank you

[Bigtree]

I would just like to agree that some of the skill trees don't seem to connect.

The example I would like to show are combat skills. It seems that each fighting style (ranged, two handed, one handed) come with a predetermined armor type. Leather for ranged up to plate for two handed.

In my opinion all the armor types should by one line. If I'm going to wear leather armor it's likely to have some padding in it. Take that logic up to plate. Plate armor often is made up of plate, chain, leather and padding. If my fighting style depends mostly on armor then I should have to progress that skill through the levels of armor types.

In the real world one can use a two handed weapon in any armor or no armor. And one can wear armor without ever picking up a weapon.

Might I suggest: (this is actual a repost from another thread. Maegfaer, what you did is better)
Padded > Leather > Chain > Scale > Plate
Unarmed > 1H Blade > Shield > 1H Axe/Mace > Piercing
WarHorse > Mounted Fighting > Lansing > Heavy Horse > WarCry
Thrown Weapon > Spears > CrossBow > Bow > Combat Prep
Militia > 2H Blade > 2H Axe > 2HMace > PoleAxe

My thoughts...

[Bigtree]

As for skill caps. I have to say I think they are valid and realistic. Sorry, but I agree with the devs on this one.

Have you ever heard someone say "Well I used to be able to play the piano but I haven't touched one in x years!" They are acknowledging that there skill with the piano may have gone down in those years. In the real world if we don't maintain our skills they start to "slip". On the other hand "skill cap" might be a bad way of thinking about it. In the RW we have a time cap. It would take a lot of time to maintain every skill we use at "100%" (if you could even measure RW skills that way).

That said I think that a persons Intellect can (and in this game does) have an effect at how much overall skill they have. However, I think the effect could be higher than 1 point of skill for 1 point of int. Maybe 3-4 skill for 1 int.

[Deantwo]

I agree with some of the ideas about the peaceful skill changes in LiB.
But the Combat skill changes just doesn't work with the current skillcap system.

If all the armor skills are in one line, you will never be able to wear plate and have an advanced weapon.
Maybe it would make sense in some ways, but I do like some of the current system.

-

The idea about removing skill lines is still my favorite.
You don't need to know farming to be a good tailor in real life.
You don't need to know how to work in an iron mine to be a good blacksmith.
Of course it does make sense for some skills, like the higher tier construction skills.

May also work for most combat skills.
But how this would be balanced I have no idea though.

[Maegfaer]

But the Combat skill changes just doesn't work with the current skillcap system.

If all the armor skills are in one line, you will never be able to wear plate and have an advanced weapon.

Not true, you only need the prerequisites at level 60. That means to have 100 Plate Armour you need 4*60+100 = 340 skill points in armour.

Also, since alts are impossible in LiB, the skill cap has been raised to 800 to make up for it. I don't think it's wise to stubbornly hold on to the default skill cap of 600. Default values are also somewhat arbitrary and they are probably set with the MMO in mind.

[Azzerhoden]

I mostly like the current combat skill tree structure. Players will have to pick a tree and train it up to the top, or have some mix & matching with limited (or no) high end weaponry/armor.

I like the passive skill rearrangement. Can you submit that on Mantis?

[Deantwo]

I mostly like the current combat skill tree structure. Players will have to pick a tree and train it up to the top, or have some mix & matching with limited (or no) high end weaponry/armor.

I agree for the most part.
Only thing I don't like about the current combat skill tree is that crossbow and bow mastery are in the same line.
I don't see any reason you would ever need or want to train both.

Also the Combat preparation is rather oddly placed.

[Cndo]

I disagree with the changes, you put a lot of thought into it which is great but I like the way it is and here is why.

As it is with say farming, you have to grind hunting in order to get rabbits and chickens for the coop. (as mentioned above) While this might be a massive pain in the butt, the point of that is to encourage group activity. The economy is based on the fact you have low skill caps and skill gain, it is to encourage you as the animal lore character to strike a deal with your local hunter to bring you these animals, and at that point you can breed them. (At some point)
So the hunting is only a temporary matter as with proper animal lore you can make more rabbits and chickens without hunting.

A combat example is the 2 handed path.

I can totally understand this to a point, if I want to use plate armor and a spear, I need to get 2 handed mastery! BUT and this is the thing you can get the 2 handed mastery to get plate, then set 2 handed to decrease! So the system does encourage you to go through the tree but you can lower certain skills as you go along to accommodate your plans.

With shouting abilities, I think you should totally have to go through the entire 2h infantry tree, that is a strong ability and it should take a ton of time and effort to get. And it makes sense to myself that the 2h infantry group (basically heavy infantry) have the ability as they are heavy and bulky infantry that need a way out.


TLDR: I disagree, for multiple reasons involving current mechanics that and group play.

[Thalandore]

Regarding my abilities, I am maxed but want Strength to go up. I put all other skills arrows down and only strength up...but no matter what tasks I perform that used to raise my strength, it never budges.

[KingOfHell]

Regarding my abilities, I am maxed but want Strength to go up. I put all other skills arrows down and only strength up...but no matter what tasks I perform that used to raise my strength, it never budges.

it doesnt increase if your skill is maxed already. drop down the skill itself and then level it up back again.

[Ontrose]

Hello guys,

Here are my 5 cent about this topic.

Yes animal lore is a pain in the ass, but more to the fact, that breeding is not working, then the fact, that it needs time and loads of mats. The amount of animals needed will go down when the breeding works.
I think that was the main complain on the peaceful skills right?
And besides Tailoring, i think the Skilltrees are absolutely fine.
I think it probably should be a free skill like that jeweler (what is it called again? not my native language sorry...)
But what to put in its place? probably going farming -> hunting (or vica versa) -> animal lore....
I think that skilltree would fit better in a sense.

Next are the agressive Skilltrees.
I really think they are fine.
The only things i would change is the fact that the mounted trees got chainmail. It should be plate, since a good warhorse and platearmor cost loads of bucks, which means that this geos more or less hand in hand, while footsoldiers may use one hand+chain and shield and 2h uses scale.
But in the end, i think all armor skills are in T2 of the skilltrees.
Due to that fact, you can do whatever weapon+armor you like. You just cant master all armors (and a good weapon).
One more point is, i think one handed should start with maces (way easier to use then swords, simply bashing would do it for starters).

But well, lets say you want to play an archer (4*60+100 =340 points) so we got 260 left. which would effectively add the possibilty to max out other armor skill. -160 points here. so still 100 left. Maybe for a 2handed weapon?

But that are all slight changes, no full reworks here

[Zourin]

Things I call total BS on:


Bone Glue is dependent on chickens pooping. Every product of every tool/station/building that requires bone glue is dependent on someone having pooping chickens. Roads? Better have chicken poop. Leather armor? Need chicken poop!

In order to first train a weapon, you must have your balls beat in wearing armor that isn't available until end-tier crafting.


Farming -> Cooking -> Procuration -> Tailoring (Move bone glue to Cooking). This is your 'plant and food' skill line.

Hunting/Fishing -> Animal Lore -> Tanning -> Leatherworking. This is your 'it bleeds and I can wear it' tree.

Remove BS skill point sinks such as 'praying', "general actions', and 'mentoring'.

[Tekamo]

I would actually like if the Craftingskills and Fighting skills used the same skillpoints. Or better:

Make an option to be Main crafter, that means you get maybe 60% of the skillpoints from the fightertree to distribute as you like, (figting or crafting)

The same the other way,descide to be pure fighter, get 60% of the craftingskill points to distribute freely...

so a pure crafter or fighter can be more specilized but with less totalpoints in general....

example:
I dont know the exact numbers right now so I just use some numers:

Crafting point 600 Fighting points 400

IF you go pure crafter you get 840 total point to distriute freely (crafting and fightingskills) IF you dont go pure line you get 600 for crafting and 400 for fighting, 1000 total

[Ontrose]

I think the idea of prefrences is not a bad one.

Lets say, we've got the 1200points of total.
The option to spend it 800-400 (or 400-800) is quite a good idea.
Maybe we should even go a bit further, lets skip, e.x. the prospecting/mining thing, and let some1 with an maxed out fighting skill (like the one handed tree) get access to smithing.
Of course, just like that it would suck hard.
But we can give them a max of 29.99 skill there, which can provide no building mats, no good weapons etc, so primarily for maintaining theirs weapons and armos in good shape, like using the grindstone to sharpen swords.

Or that Chainmail+horse skills, so they can grow their own onions and potatoes to feed their horses etc.
Some semi-cross-skills

[Haladmer]

I would actually like if the Craftingskills and Fighting skills used the same skillpoints. Or better:

Make an option to be Main crafter, that means you get maybe 60% of the skillpoints from the fightertree to distribute as you like, (figting or crafting)

The same the other way,descide to be pure fighter, get 60% of the craftingskill points to distribute freely...

so a pure crafter or fighter can be more specilized but with less totalpoints in general....

example:
I dont know the exact numbers right now so I just use some numers:

Crafting point 600 Fighting points 400

IF you go pure crafter you get 840 total point to distriute freely (crafting and fightingskills) IF you dont go pure line you get 600 for crafting and 400 for fighting, 1000 total

Only problem with this is that the skill points are not divided between skill groups (Crafting/Combat/General). Each grouping gets the same total points to use, so if the skill cap is 600, you have a total of 1800 points between the 3 groups (600 for each group set).

In your example of using X%, it doesn't actually reduce the total number of skill points available, simply moves them to another group.


@Zourin,

Bone glue only requires bones and water to make http://lifeisfeudal.gamepedia.com/Bone_glue

So not sure what you're actually trying to point out related to needing chickens to "poop". If you have chickens in a coop, it's much faster/easier to simply harvest eggs every hour to level animal handling.

[Ontrose]

Well, he was complaining, that you need Animal Lore levelled up before you can get procuration (which is needed to create glue) which didnt make sense for him.
Well maybe it doesnt make sense and should probably be switched to hunting or whatever.
^^
On the other hand, its not that hard, since you can start raising procuration as soon as you get 30 on animal lore...

[Jaxomadar]

But the Combat skill changes just doesn't work with the current skillcap system.


Also, since alts are impossible in LiB, the skill cap has been raised to 800 to make up for it. I don't think it's wise to stubbornly hold on to the default skill cap of 600. Default values are also somewhat arbitrary and they are probably set with the MMO in mind.

I'm guessing you mean in the MMO one because the YourOwn version I have 4 alts.

[Deantwo]

But the Combat skill changes just doesn't work with the current skillcap system.

Also, since alts are impossible in LiB, the skill cap has been raised to 800 to make up for it. I don't think it's wise to stubbornly hold on to the default skill cap of 600. Default values are also somewhat arbitrary and they are probably set with the MMO in mind.

I'm guessing you mean in the MMO one because the YourOwn version I have 4 alts.

No Maegfaer was talking about his mod: Life is Balanced (aka LiB)

[Haladmer]

Well, he was complaining, that you need Animal Lore levelled up before you can get procuration (which is needed to create glue) which didnt make sense for him.
Well maybe it doesnt make sense and should probably be switched to hunting or whatever.
^^
On the other hand, its not that hard, since you can start raising procuration as soon as you get 30 on animal lore...

I figured as much, which was why I mentioned a better way to raise the skill is actually with harvesting eggs from chickens since you can do that every hour or so. It goes fast, even on 1.0 skill gain servers.

I do agree that it seems odd for the unlock to be part of procuration specifically since hunting can also provide bones, but as the skills are defined, it also does make sense.

Not that I'm suggesting it should be changed liked this, but there could be a change in hunting where you cannot gather bones/meat without having someone with procuration to butcher it. This could also be changed to base Procuration on the Fishing/Hunting skill and/or Animal Lore. So you have two ways to obtain the skill.