Life is Feudal Official Forum

[Zhalls]

The following is a very brief email exchange between myself and Vladimir “Bobik” Piskunov. Everything mentioned is subject to change at any time so do not accept this as holy scripture. What you can do is accept this for is face value: a response to the subject of using automation tools and bots in LiF.

First and foremost, let us define what an automation tool is, and the different types of bots that exist within the realm of MMO's:

Automation Tools:
These serve one purpose only, and that is to automate a specific function that is both stationary, and highly repetitive. Gathering plant fibers in one such example. There are numerous tools to use this, most commonly are MMO gaming devices such as keyboards and mice. An automation method does not inject nor even read memory addresses. It simply utilizes pre-arranged macros and loops the function of this macro over a set course of time or number of actions. It is non invasive, does not purport a method to steal kills or resources from others, does not automate actions that interact with others, or move around the grid.

Non-Invasive Bot Tools:
A non-invasive bot tool serves the purpose of an automation tool, but with one extra layer of intelligence necessary to undergo functions ranging from stationary, semi-stationary, or fully mobile. Usually involves the recording of mouse movement in combination with keyboard macro commands. They do not always, nor are required, to read memory addresses, however sometimes do for the sole purpose of knowing true compass headings. This allows the recording of mouse movements to coordinate with the compass to ensure an exact path is replicated and can be reproduced. This might include picking up an item from one bag, walking to yet another bag, and unloading said contents.

Invasive Bot Tools
These are what most uninformed users think of when they think of, or read about, botters and other automation methods. They almost always read memory addresses in order to find out min/max/current stats such as health, energy, mana, etc. They sometimes even inject into the memory address itself, in order to freeze or alter in some way, those stats in order to create results not equal to that of a normal playing function. Infinite health, stamina bars, max carry weight, and more. They can be used at PVP bots, kill stealing bots, looters, and more, typically designed to achieve a very specific advantage over another that is otherwise not mechanically possible. Obvious not within the boundaries of the intended spirit of the game.


[QUESTION]

"So with the three descriptions above, do you think we could flesh out some sort of official response on the forums that stipulates what is legal, and what is not legal? Obvious invasive bots should be illegal, maybe even non-invasive depending on your point of view, but what about basic automations, mobile or otherwise? It would be nice to know the answer to this question, officially."

[RESPONSE]

"don't have any time really to make an official statement, official document, update a EULA or whatever. But I'll just share my opinion with you and you're free to share it if you want to (or just link me to a relative forums topic, please ). Automation and non-invasive bot tools ARE ALLOWED in my opinion. Though I think there might be some troubles for players that will use them in our constantly changing world with full loot PvP And we aim to make such automations unnecessary in game (all minigame crafts for instance have an "Autocraft" option).

As about invasive bot tools TBH I consider them as hacks really and of course they are PROHIBITED."


[THE VERDICT]

This is a common sense conclusion here. If you want to use automations for repetitive tedious tasks, then the use of such tools are currently acceptable. Mobile non-invasive bots are also acceptable, however for obvious reasons noted by Bobik, if you run an automation, don't be surprised if someone finds and kills you while running your script within a non-protected space. (Obviously.)

The spirit of this conversation was one that states an automation tool that does not directly interact within someone in a harmful manner or in a way that is otherwise impossible to do otherwise (hacks, memory address manipulation, etc) is not allowed. You may not use a combat bot to grief people, you cannot use a looting bot to raid villages, etc.

I hope this answers some of the concerns I've been reading about people who are unsure what is legit, and what is not regarding people using automation tools.

Cheers

[Zhalls]

Please sticky.

Cheers

[Sugam]

I second that. Should be sticky. Very useful to know as far as the direction in this matter is so far heading.

[Stormsblade]

A bot which permanently gathers herbs, that you flip the switch on, head off to work, and come back to 900 herbs is a "non-invasive bot."

But its presence will render herb gathering manually to be almost a complete waste of time, ey?

This will render the work of people who don't both virtually meaningless.

I think any bot that reads memory to ascertain location, allowing for full automation of tasks that would otherwise have to be manually performed, should be a bannable offense.

[Xarr666]

What i miss in this post:

The time- and attendance factor of those (for now) allowed tools/macros.

I mean, i press a key to gather grass over night, come back and have a thousand grass fibers which can be used in snare traps and so on.

Is it still okay to have such perma-gathering players? Players who would need to gather manually with minigames, would be faster in a time-factor BUT the afk-players could sleep, work, eat or do something different and could then play aswell actively.

(AFK)-Macroing is a huge topic for most sandbox-games like Ultima Online or Darkfall. Do not forget, that those gathering stuff gives a bit of stats aswell, so with simple skill-juggling you could also raise your stats like that and would have a (slight?) advantage over non-macroers.

[Jalpha]

As long as nobody can bot on claimed land I don't care. Bot away, give the bandits a way to make a livelihood. If people can bot perfectly safely then that's an obscene advantage.

If you choose to run a macro then you risk being killed, and all those botted herbs become mine now.

[Stormsblade]

As long as nobody can bot on claimed land I don't care. Bot away, give the bandits a way to make a livelihood. If people can bot perfectly safely then that's an obscene advantage.

If you choose to run a macro then you risk being killed, and all those botted herbs become mine now.

^

[Zhalls]

Every single gaming community out there faces this at some point and its always the people with the least amount of hands-on experience with the subject who oppose automations. So I wanted to help soften some of the worries that I'm hearing here by dispelling a few quick myths:

Firstly, Botting herbalism doesn't work due to the dynamic non-targeting system of LiF, and how herbalism works in general. People seem to think that writing advanced automation scripts are easy, and can be done within every environment. They're not, and they can't. Reading a memory address is not enough, not even close.

Secondly, millions, and I mean MILLIONS, of gaming keyboards and mice are sold world-wide such as Razer Naga Mice and Keyboard Products which means it is very likely that 1 out of every 3 MMO gamers out there already have built in macro looping software in their gaming devices, and use it regularly evidently without your knowledge. Now days, I'm really surprised when I bump into a serious MMO gamer who doesn't already have gaming devices. This is the future of gaming, this isn't hacking, super-secret squirrel technology here. It's the same tech you buy from your local Best Buy store for $30-$70.

When people start throwing around the word "bot" like it's a cancer spreading time-bomb, especially between the "have-nots" and the "haves", it often leads to an erroneous exchange of misinformation on ideas of what is possible, and what is not possible. Automations are not dynamic, and they require a lot more than just memory addresses in order to function, which is why professional RMT bot businesses thrive within a highly target-dependant environment systems like WoW, FF, SWTOR, etc etc.

Also, as clearly stated by Bobik, actual MMO harming invasive-bots are illegal, and quite frankly, very easy to detect and ban by the software at our disposal these days for MMo companies. It's not difficult to tell when someone is manipulating memory addresses, not only from an anecdotal gameplay perspective but also from a server side perspective. Companies are very good at detecting when memory addresses are being tampered with.

Lastly, Nobody is taking over the worldspace economy with 10,000 plant fibers, and as I said above, you can't bot herbs. Nobody is botting to claim your walls, stealing your moose, clean your chicken coops, or PK your mom. The intelligence of an actual player trying to manually do that is and always will be far superior to any bot trying to function within a dynamic non-targeting system environment. Bots and automation macros just don't work like that.

Cheers

[Xarr666]

Yea, it is good and sadly necessary to "educate" people about stuff like this.

But in an open world with full loot, pvp with skill-gains on players, i see the upcoming "powergaming-houses" where people hit each other over night, while others heal them and so on.

Seen in Ultima Online, seen in Darkfall, and if the mechanics will stay like this, simple autoclickers or scripts will be used in LiF aswell.

It is not only an economical aspect, it is the whole thing with skills which can (and will) be macroed over night.

The thing with plant fiber won't be that important later i think, right now i took it as an example because snare traps require 10 fiber and are very very important for many things.

But yep, thumbs up for the explenations of this kind of stuff.

[Stormsblade]

I know first hand how gamebreaking botting is. I would get 20 pearls a day, AFK, in that game. It would take someone weeks of arduous work to do the same manually.

Botting ruins the economy.
Botting obsoletes people who don't bot.

You obviously don't know anything about this, as you don't even think you could bot herbs. I can't even tell you how easy that would be. Botting herbs would be extremely, extremely, simple.

Don't discredit everyone who disagrees with you as the "least qualified." If anything, I would be the most skeptical of those that WANT botting.

Why? Because it is likely they just want to run their bots and become super rich at every other players expense.

As someone who has done extensive botting, who has seen a game ruined by how broken bot automation can make production, I say no.

"Automation" that does not read any memory addresses at all would be fine. Macros and autohotkey.

[Zhalls]

Edited out.

Since Stormsblade's previous post was edited due to spam, this post iis no longer necessary.

[Tymefor]

Firstly, Botting herbalism doesn't work due to the dynamic non-targeting system of LiF, and how herbalism works in general.

You can bot herbs and I do.....
didn't bother trying to make a bot that reads the memory addresses for spawns even, as I felt that crossed a line. Just spent 20 mins stuffing around with mouse position recording and "probable" spawn locations. Success rate for gather is low something like 1 every 6 mins. But hell run it while I'm sleeping for the night and I net anywhere between 80-200 herbs. Depending more on wether or not the server crashes lol.

Since non invasive reading of memory is allowed aswell i could easily refine to have a MUCH higher return rate.

Really though with enough feedback about what we can do with bots during this alpha we can help them make design choices that remove the point of botting.

But ATM botting herbs is a bit broken, and also Ive had a fairly good success with my mining-shaping-dumping on ground granite mod.

[Stormsblade]

100% irreverent.

I lol'ed.

Firstly, Botting herbalism doesn't work due to the dynamic non-targeting system of LiF, and how herbalism works in general.

You can bot herbs and I do.....

Yep. You don't even need to do anything other than macro it either. This guy is just trying to push his bot agenda.

[Jalpha]

I'm not an expert but most bots I know of scan the screen with the mouse and use the appearance of a tooltip as the trigger to perform an action (like picking a herb). In this game that becomes slightly more complicated because there's no indication when a herb is moused over.

Doesn't make it impossible, as you could potentially set a bot to right click all across the screen and close any menu which is not the pick herb menu, but it does greatly complicate the code and the level of understanding required to craft the bot.

Especially if you don't want it to get "lost" and wander all over the map.

[Xarr666]

You can bot herbs and I do.....
didn't bother trying to make a bot that reads the memory addresses for spawns even, as I felt that crossed a line. ... But hell run it while I'm sleeping for the night and I net anywhere between 80-200 herbs. Depending more on wether or not the server crashes lol.

...

Really though with enough feedback about what we can do with bots during this alpha we can help them make design choices that remove the point of botting.

If you had an effective herb gather bot for several hundret herbs, the problem of serious brain injuries would be a thing to think about (herb sorting/stacking).

This would lead to an auto herb sort system (should be not that hard to do with picture-search in autoIt?), which would lead to many, many flux.

In terms of balance, the group with such an herb-gatherer, would have a advantage over the other groups when they dont have it or dont want to use it (fairplayers exist, trust me).

The thing about "show the developer things you can do!" is the important here in my opinion as long as its alpha/beta, so they can figure future rules, systems and restrictions out.

[Stormsblade]

You can bot herbs and I do.....
didn't bother trying to make a bot that reads the memory addresses for spawns even, as I felt that crossed a line. ... But hell run it while I'm sleeping for the night and I net anywhere between 80-200 herbs. Depending more on wether or not the server crashes lol.

...

Really though with enough feedback about what we can do with bots during this alpha we can help them make design choices that remove the point of botting.

If you had an effective herb gather bot for several hundret herbs, the problem of serious brain injuries would be a thing to think about (herb sorting/stacking).

This would lead to an auto herb sort system (should be not that hard to do with picture-search in autoIt?), which would lead to many, many flux.

In terms of balance, the group with such an herb-gatherer, would have a advantage over the other groups when they dont have it or dont want to use it (fairplayers exist, trust me).

The thing about "show the developer things you can do!" is the important here in my opinion as long as its alpha/beta, so they can figure future rules, systems and restrictions out.

I agree with this fair-headed approach.

[Kjaskar]

To be honest the only approach actually viable here is to make Botting not worth your time.

If there even exists a need to bot a game, why the hell would you like to play it fair? Its been that for darkfall (especially pre-UW) and I surely quit because of the _need_ to bot something.
Its boring. Doing the same repetetive and boring, not even visually appealing, Job is dull work that doesn't provide any fun except for the possibility of reward. I'm not a Labrat.

Now I know you can't go with zero repeating tasks.
Still those repeating, very boring tasks (Such as gathering branches and plant fibers) should be more rewarding or somehow provide some more gameplay. Looking at the ground or a tree and clicking LMB is not something I'd want to be forced to do for 2 Hours to get enough plant fibers / branches to build, for example, snares.
I'd bot the hell out of that and do it while I was doing something else, I'd be rather dumb not to. Why? Because its boring. But I need to do it to make something more worthwhile.

I don't think thats the purpose of a _Game_. You should be playing it, have fun with it, and not let repetitive tasks force you into, well, not playing it.

While I did like the EasyUO scripting and automationcontest that was Ultima Online, and loved coming back to having a fully skilled Character after a while of actually not playing for serious at all, I don't think that LiF will get to the point of "Making it actually fun to bot".
UO had a lot to do besides botting it to no ends. This game, at the moment, doesn't. So thats something to look into, I think.

[Zhalls]

I think some of you guys get the point of this thread, which is great. I'm still not sure what the chip on Stormsblade shoulder is. Maybe I kicked his puppy in a different thread or something. We're just trying to share information without telling everyone its the end of the world. Take a look at the color of my forum name? That means early supporter who wants to see this game succeed. That is my only agenda.

This is a healthy conversation, and like some of you have already mentioned, this is exactly how one helps create better design, by taking away the tedium by examining what is being automated. For those of you who get it, and are not just trolling here to argue, insult, or spam, thanks for participating in this thread.

[Stormsblade]

You want bots.
I think that bots ultimately damage the game.

Nothing special about that.

[Haladmer]

You want bots.
I think that bots ultimately damage the game.

Nothing special about that.

Just to clarify when you say "bots" I assume you mean for this to include any automation (i.e. gamer keyboards/mice which run repeat macros, etc...)?

Personally I'd be against any form of "afk capable"automation (even if the person is sitting there watching the script running), simply because it takes a user away from playing the game. Which is why I liked the "mini-games" aspect for those who don't want to (or cannot) do those actions in-game for any reason.

Ultimately, Bobik could just provide an automated character option like http://progressquest.com/ if people just want to "win" in some way without actually playing the game.

But if it's known to be allowed and it can provide any benefit, people will use it and those who don't will be at a disadvantage in that aspect of gameplay.

[Kermit9978]

A bot which permanently gathers herbs, that you flip the switch on, head off to work, and come back to 900 herbs is a "non-invasive bot."

Actually, to gather herbs you need to perform two minigames, plus you have to move around the map based on where the herb is located in order to harvest.

So I don't believe there is any way to auto-gather herbs without some kind of game feedback, which would be invasive and is not allowed.

So you have nothing to worry about, imho.

[Stormsblade]

A bot which permanently gathers herbs, that you flip the switch on, head off to work, and come back to 900 herbs is a "non-invasive bot."

Actually, to gather herbs you need to perform two minigames, plus you have to move around the map based on where the herb is located in order to harvest.

So I don't believe there is any way to auto-gather herbs without some kind of game feedback, which would be invasive and is not allowed.

So you have nothing to worry about, imho.

Herbs spawn underneath you in a static location, and you can "auto" instead of play the minigames.

Further, player movement is not very difficult.

[Lustmord]

Did somebody find a tool that can send keystrokes/clicks to the inactive/minimized game window? I'm using UOPilot for fiber gathering but it requires the window to be active, like other simple clickers.

[DichBach]

I'm curious how many who are adamantly opposed to all botting have played on "MMO-speed," i.e., a server with 1x skill progression modifier?

At 1x, it takes thousands of acts to level up to high levels. This makes skills like Nature's Lore, and Forestry (to name two) exceptionally dull, tedious and painful. Not to mention that . . . with the small animals that live in coops not currently breeding (well in the 1% of any possible mating pair lifespan ballpark, so not truly "never" but nothing like "regularly") it is necessary to snare large amounts of rabbits to acquire enough thin leather to make any appreciable amounts of leather. Each snare takes 10 grass fibers.

On my 1x server, I've put out 6 to 7 batches of snares with an average number of about 35. I have about 24 excess thin leather, and the other ~100 or so went to make things for our town.

None of these numbers are astronomical but they are large and painful, i.e., "not fun."

The solution obviously is to, as much as possible, make all these aspects of gameplay equally fun. There seem to be automatic auto-crafting functions that engage when you do certain actions (certain crafting actions like "make handle"), and there are options for such auto-crafting on others (e.g., melting ores and metals into different forms). These "auto-crafting" options mitigate whatever pain exists from the repetitiveness of those crafting activities, and are limited in total AFK productivity by the contents of one's inventory.

Why not have similar in-game auto-crafting/acting options for ALL crafting? Then there is no need to allow any outside macros at all.

For now, I'll continue to use my AutoClicker to collect grass fibers and break branches off trees, but I do hope that the design decisions made ultimately settle the debate and provide a fun experience where there is really little to zero need to use any macros or more sophisticated bots.

[Stormsblade]

Why not have similar in-game auto-crafting/acting options for ALL crafting? Then there is no need to allow any outside macros at all.

For now, I'll continue to use my AutoClicker to collect grass fibers and break branches off trees, but I do hope that the design decisions made ultimately settle the debate and provide a fun experience where there is really little to zero need to use any macros or more sophisticated bots.

Based on what Bobik has said in the past, I think this is the plan. Hopefully it comes to pass.

Moving bots that of any kind should be banned, even if they do accomplish all their automation goals pre-release.

[Tymefor]

OOOH nice aimbots work for the crossbow and bow. perpetual headshots ftw.

[Fluffypinkbunny]

so my automation of hold w for 1.5 miliseconds then press e, then wait 10 seconds... is bad?

is that worse than, e, wait 10 seconds, e, wait 10?

[Mojstermiha]

so my automation of hold w for 1.5 miliseconds then press e, then wait 10 seconds... is bad?

is that worse than, e, wait 10 seconds, e, wait 10?

Farming bot?:)

[Degrath]

I am probably going to be the minority in this, but here is my opinion.
I think you should leave the gather rates as they are. Tedium was a part of everyday life in medieval times. I think tedium and mindless gathering should be a part of the game required for skill. It separates those who are true Grand-masters of a craft and those wannabes who lack the commitment to see it through. "It's supposed to be hard. If it wasn't hard everyone would do it."(movie quote...)

So what about the botters, script kiddies, and everyone else who wants to press the "I win" button? They will find a way no matter what you do. No matter what the EULA says, no matter what type of anti cheat program you have, they will find a way. Just because you can't see it happening now, it more than likely will come to pass at some time. If it is not a feature of a mouse / game-pad/ keyboard then it should be a bannable offence. Like I said you can't stop them but when you catch them you can get rid of them. If they still want to play make them buy the game all over, at least you can have some measure of a win over them with a little extra revenue.

Right now the community is spread out over thousands of smaller servers it makes gathering even more boring and tedious, for the most part alone. This isn't supposed to be a single player/ solo game? With a MMO server, a single persistent world (maybe 1 or 2 time zone based) you would have enough players together for a greater team effort, Or at least someone to bs with while you both mindlessly gather.

In medieval times one farmer couldn't support a kingdom, one smith couldn't supply an army. Even a smithy in a small town had an apprentice or two maybe a son or daughter to help gather the required materials. If not the operation always remained small scale and it would be twice as long for him to become a true master of his craft. If ever.

Eventually every game company gives in and dumbs down a potentially great game to cater to the whiners and wannabes. One of the better examples I remember is Star Wars Galaxies in the early days what it took to become a true master of your profession or even a Jedi. It was hard, tedious and downright boring at times but the awe and the glory of those coveted masters was well worth it. Then came the whiners... it's too hard... too tedious... it's not fair... and poof the game was changed, "I win" buttons added next thing you know a thousand Jedi duels at the spaceport day and night. Not many real players left to explore the vast and rich worlds of the galaxy. Gone was the immersion, the complex professions and intricate crafting and the desire to play the game.

Sorry if this seems to go off to a bit of a rant. I mean no offence to anyone with this post, it's just my opinion.

[Zhalls]

I'm pretty happy to see such a neat dialogue being exchanged here after being away for a prolonged period of time. I'm an avid botter, I find it incredibly satisfying and enjoyable. I also like to see open dialogue about the subject without fear of being smacked down by the man too.

I just wish there was a wee bit less erroneous information being exchanged as a result of the never ending naysayer vs yaysayer debate here. So many cry-wolf posters in addition to rambo blowhard botters who claim to be able to do things that quite frankly, they can't, or don't. Especially not with the software they're currently using. Tymefor/Tymir, I'm looking at you bud, we played on the same server for a bit, you were in my guild, you just didn't realize it. Haha, remember when that guy shot a random arrow into the sky and it somehow landed on you seemingly miles away while you were bot-farming stone into that wall? Haha, good times.

Moral to the story here is that people are claiming an awful lot here, and crying about all sorts of injustices, but the reality is that 99.9% of the botters out there arn't trying to auto-hump your sheep, steal your wife, pillage your booty, or looking for the mystical mmo "I win" button that I keep hearing about here. All they're doing is making a tedious task suddenly a thousand times more fun. You should try it, you might just find yourself an instant believer. Absolutely 0% of the people I've ever turned on to botting has ever told me that it ruined the game for them or others. 0% of them have ever told me about how they screwed over xyz player with a mystical magic bullet bot. What I can tell you is 100% of them will admit that they were wrong the entire time about botters, and how they have absolutely no idea how they could have played without the software I shared with them, because let's face it, a good auto-clicker is freaking fun.

Automations and clickers are fun. Embrace them. And before you start crying wolf, try a pair on for size and see how it feels. I think you might just find that they fit and feel amazingly well.

Enjoy and happy gaming, friends.