Life is Feudal Official Forum

[Dailato]

So we've recently learned that the current idea is for horses to be storeable in your backpack when you're not using them so you can "carry them around" for the sake of convenience. It is necesarry to have your mount in this state, or inside a stable, to retain it upon logging off.

There is some sentiment however that this is not the way it should be, and that mounts shouldn't be able to be carried around, but instead maintained on log-off if you're riding it, and otherwise stored in a stable when not in use (or otherwise tied down somewhere, but that's not a mechanic currently available).

Obviously for the sake of immersion and realism, not being able to pull a horse out of hammer-space would be preferred, but an argument can be made that it's too inconvenient to have to find a stable to store your horse, and that many people either won't notice or won't care about the inconsistency as this method of mounting is so common in modern-day MMO's.

What are your thoughts on the matter? Yay or Nay on pocket-mounts? And why? Lets get the developers some feedback to listen to

[Kuroi]

well i would just say "nay" for the sake of realism, that's probably the main design of LiF, right?

moreover i don't like it at all as mechanics itself, even if this was a fantasy mmo, i would hope they can manage to do it like in UO/MO where you either use the stables or you can log out while on the horse...

if that's just a restart/maintenance issue, i guess they have a precise time? so you should know when it's gonna happen and hurry up stabling your mount...

i'm already "not happy" with house/bind recalling, if you venture far away from town you shouldn't have a safe way to come back, but i "may" pass over it... having pocket mounts as well tho, it's a bit too much ;P

let's see what the devs can tell us about it, we're not even in alpha i would remember, everything changes

[Arrakis]

I already feel, that horses being on the move or the stable may be problematic sometimes, some glitches etc... That may happen.

But that's not the issue, the realism is an issue. If we will have 'pocket' mounts, game will be one step closer to WoW and WoW-like games. This is not fantasy, this is medieval, game set in middle ages.

Let's stick to realism, one thing to figure out is how not to accidently lose horse. There needs to be an option to call it if you are far from him, whistle or something. And about logging of, horse should just simply dissapear with user who is controlling it in the place where horse was in that moment, of course logging of shouldn't be possible if horse was attacked at the moment.

These are my thoughts on this matter.

[Cian]

I can see both sides of the argument and let me try to express it as best I can.

I can see from a developer perspective how treating horses like an actionable item would allow for better storage and saving in the database. It would make it easier to prevent loss if a server went down or a glitch occurred on a character. It would also mean that players wouldn't have to spend hours looking for a stable if they were out in the wilderness with some sort of pack animal or any kind of animal not ridden.

The problem I see is that it damages immersion and realism. Horses that are ridden are typically treated as another piece of equippable item on the database so a server down shouldn't theoretically affect it anymore than any other item. So basically the issue is really concerning either A. Non-ridable animals (Pack animals etc), or B. the developers are betting people don't want to have to travel for hours looking for a stable.

Here is my argument against summonable animals. They DESTROY pvp. Play darkfall or Ultima Online. Get attacked and summon a horse to run away. Basically means that anyone doing pvp is required to have a horse or they are dead. In the case of Darkfall where they could be killed independently of the rider, players were forced to carry multiple mount tokens to escape enemies.

If you make it so that mounts have to either go everywhere with you or go into a stable, foot combat becomes more viable.

This is only my opinion based on my experience.

[Arrakis]

What Cian said is excacly perfect solution. Remember that player could still get on the horse and escape from the battlefield, unless his opponents were faster or he got shot by an arrow, or his horse for this matter.

Realism above all, that's what brought me here, I won't enjoy any summonable-pocket mounts.

[Bobik]

5 sec timer to unpack a horse, 5 sec timer to pack a horse and both timers can be interrupted by damage. And only 1 (in rarest builds 2) horse can be in inventory at once.
That solves pretty much everything, except realism.

[Arrakis]

Yeah Bobik i don't like it too much... Pocket mounts as I said are really unrealistic and WoWlike. Is there any chance you will change that system?

[Bobik]

It is not implemented yet, so changes are possible.

[Arrakis]

That's good, will you think about making it more realistic? Just like was proposed few posts above? I'm sure many people would prefer that rather than typical mmo mounts sumonned out of nothingness. It's better with option to whistle and call the horse if its a bit far from player, and to leave it in major cities in stables.

I hope you will consider that option Bobik

[Virdill]

But that problem would be if the horse can be put in a stall if you own or rent, and when you go off the horse disappears together with the player?

[Arrakis]

Well in my opinion horse should work either as NPC, which will be in-game regardless if player is online or not, or just dissapear with the player when logging off.

I think both options would be fine.

[Dailato]

Okay, seeing as there is some discussion going on here, I'll add my own idea on the simplest kind of implementation I can think of that will satisfy people's immersion.

Horses/donkeys/cows/wheelbarrows can be stored in stables/barns/sheds by riding them into/near the location, and some kind of interaction (press button, presumably). There can be some kind of animation for getting off your horse when you do this.

Once it is inside the stable/barn/shed it can not be interacted with directly (maybe you must interact with an idle animation of your horse inside the stable, but you are not directly interacting with the horse, you are interacting with the inventory of the stable). Interactions such as breeding should be provided here, and depending on the number of horses or w/ever stabled there must be enough food/hay to support them (or the horses will starve/suffer stat or hp damage). You can ofcourse retrieve your horse from the stables as well.

As long as you are riding your horse or have it in the stable it is bound to you (others cannot use or retrieve it) it essentially counts as equipment (wars/sieges/thieving not withstanding).

The above is (in some way or shape) allready planned for the game, so now for the difference, when you get off your horse in the field.
The best solution I could come up with is that a static object is created (with an idle animation for living creatures) that can be interacted with by anyone. Your horse can be stolen, it's saddlebags looted, or it can even be killed, it's w/ever. Possibly some kinds of warhorse can be "bound" to not listen to anyone but it's master, but these horses could then ofcourse also not be traded.

When server down-time comes around any horses not "equipped" can have one of two things happen, depending on what the regular process for maintenance is.

1. they simply get removed from the game, along with any items they may have been carrying, it is lost forever.
2. It is reset at it's current location as a "wild" mob, carrying all the items & equipment it previously had, but now wandering around/running away w/ever. It will have to be tamed again.

Optional additions:
1. The horse wanders around/moves on it's own a bit while not mounted, meaning leaving it for a longer stretch of time could lead to an annoying search.
2. There is an ability involved with the horse-riding skills that lets you call your mount from within a certain range while not mounted. This will cause your horse to run towards where you were when you last called it, or stop when it comes within a certain range of you.
3. The horse has a ttl (time to live) after which it will go feral, regardless of server down-time (it will persist through server down time if it's ttl has not been reached)
4. Maybe stealing horses from stables is possible?(at least during wars) P

[Arrakis]

Well Dailato, part of what you have written was already spoken of on previous page of that topic, but I'm sure you have noticed that, anyway...

About that stealing, if players are supposed to steal horses, then they should be able to steal from player bags as well when they don't see that.

But it wouldn't be bad idea, of course I'm against stealing in cities, towns and villages, where stable masters or other people would have their eyes opened, as long as this would be beyond city walls it should be possible, but there should be an option to bind a horse to something while i dont know, resting in the woods. Let's say we are going to use rope to bind it to the tree or other object, so horse just doesn't run away in meantime.

The rest sounds fine, I hope it will be implemented, I really do.

[attckdog]

I'm all for realism but you gotta draw the line somewhere. I think that if you are going to inconvenience the player to that degree it would be just annoying.

Also it may have some serious effects on game performance.

[Arrakis]

Yeah I am aware of that, that's why we are all discussing every possibility before horses are even implemented in game. We need to find some common ground and find a solution best for all so devs could just do it when they will know it won't cause any problems or issues. This all has to be player friendly, easy enough but still be realistic enough too.

[Kuroi]

I'm all for horse stealing, even for plain stealing skills but thievery is not planned atm

[Slytacular]

Mounts should not be an easy resource to find, nor should it be an item. A horse should be an AI that has to be tamed in the wild, and depending on how well the player trains the horse will depend on the horse's morale.

I agree that horse's should not be pocket-able with the exception of spawning with the horse if logged out.

[Bobik]

I'm all for realism but you gotta draw the line somewhere. I think that if you are going to inconvenience the player to that degree it would be just annoying.

Also it may have some serious effects on game performance.

this.

[Dailato]

I'm all for realism but you gotta draw the line somewhere. I think that if you are going to inconvenience the player to that degree it would be just annoying.

Also it may have some serious effects on game performance.

this.

are you referring to the game performance part? If so then it's just an unfortunate limitation that we're going to have to live with.

but it being so much of an inconvenience it'd be annoying? quite frankly, even with a 5 second mount time (not much more than the original 3 sec in WoW) it is incredibly annoying to see someone (on foot) from a distance, charge them down on your horse, only to watch them start waddling their hands in the air and *poof* horse-in-a-can! See ya later bub!

This is even worse in an open world pvp game *with mounted combat* like LiF. Even if mounted combat specialists have a *slight* speed advantage over regular horses (which considering their horses are armored, is unlikely) whoever you are chasing is likely able to reach some kind of safety (friends, a town w/ever) before that small difference allows you to catch up to them.

That, in my opinion is an even bigger problem than the immersion factor. How easy pocket-horses make it to escape from people on horseback, because it breaks the gameplay of horses countering light infantry. (If they live it's their victory, it's not "your victory" because they ran away. you intended to kill them and the didn't die, their victory.)

Annoying as it was for trying to do open-world pvp, it was acceptable because, hey, there's plenty of stupid stuff that doesn't make sense in most of the fantasy worlds (and it is, as you said, convenient for travel over distance).

But LiF isn't a nonsensical fantasy world (it's not perfectly realistic, but it attempts to have *some* amount of realism rather than having it be an afterthought). So the question is: do you *really* want long-distance travel on horses to be "convenient"?

It's not like you're asking players to go through a massive hassle either, just to store their horses somewhere if they plan on not using it for a while. (I don't see why there's a sentiment of it being a big inconvenience. It really doesn't seem like it)

At any rate, if letting the horses continue to exist outside of your pocket or the stable is too big of a hog on server resources so be it, it's not exactly a deal-breaker, just a nuisance to gameplay and immersion that would've been better off done differently in my opinion.

[Varadin]

+1 to this guy above , i know game can't be 100% realistic , but i think you should put effort in it if you are already making game as realistic as possible.

Im totally against mouting horse from Nothing aka from an inventory bag. this is not WoW and it would be so lame if it happens in this game.

at least thats my opinion and probably 90% of others too.

[Dleatherus]

i'm all for stabling of mounts - perhaps having a few small 'safe' inns dotted around here and there would allow for less inconvenience

i'd also be all for you being able to feed your mount to 'train' it

ie. every cycle be it 24 or 48 hours etc you could choose to give it one of three types of food
amount could have 10 or 20 (whatever fits in best for game mechanics - this means it could take a month or two to fully train a mount)) max meals and they don't need to be all the same type of food

1. carrot would make it slightly faster - not game breakingly - perhaps 0.5% speed increase per carrot eaten

2. apple could make it stronger ie takes more damage before you are knocked off your mount

3. hay could increase it's carrying capacity (think of this one as being a packhorse for resource gatherers)

D.

[John]

No, please just no. No pocket horses, no magic safe horse spots. Why give players all this freedom to explore, build, create and leave the morals and crimes for the game to handle? It won't be feudal.

You need to let the players to be free to sort this out, create their own laws. A game mechanic which prevents horse theft (and other criminal actions) is a huge step back if you're planning to make a life simulation.

[Kuroi]

a huge step back if you're planning to make a life simulation.

that's what i think about magical recalling in your house as well, but we're still in pre-alpha concept... everything can change P

[Arrakis]

People no worries! I'm sure Bobik will avoid implementing mounts appearing out of nothingness He sure will make this as real as possible.

[attckdog]

I still think it will just be a huge amount of server resources keeping tracking of everyones horses if they have to stay "active" in the world. Items are nothing but a byte of data in a Database. where as an interactive, AI driven, object takes far more effort to have.

For what, a tiny slice of realism, at the cost of local, if not server wide, lag.

I suggest mounts working like DF.
Maybe make a timer/animation for the mounting.
That way it's not immediately available.

I'm all for mounts being a living creature that is separate from your char. I really don't want it to function like mainstream MMO mounts, IE press key / press button and poof your on your mount.

However if they are rare I would be pissed if I cannot remove it from the battle before some scrub kills it.

Maybe make them only storable in stables, that can be robbed. However taming to get horses for mounts would be awesome.

[Slytacular]

I think the player should be responsible for his horse. I wouldn't mind if there were a stables that can "store" a horse, but I favor risking the horse of acting on its own. I prefer the minecraft way of dealing with livestock.

[Sequester]

What most people in this thread forget, is that the character vanishes from the world when the player logs out (at least I assume this to be the case as in every other MMO). It's not like in the Avatar movie that the bodies fall to the ground when the connection is cut off. There is no need for any trace of him remaining and running wild in the world, while he is offline. His clothing vanishes, his bags vanish and so on. Everything except for buildt structures leave the world without destroying realism.

I think most people are really concerned about the word "pocket" or "bag". So the player should not "bag" his horse before logging off but rather "connect" with it or "attach" it before logging out.

While both are in game there should be limitations on putting lifestock in your inventory in a realism driven game.

[Yafes]

This will be my reference to an other game with similar mechanics but wurm online handles it quite simple. if you tame your horse and make a pet it will log out with you, if not you need to keep your horse safe in a pen or something.
magicly appearing horses out of inventory sounds very unusual for a game like this.

[En_Dotter]

Whatever you do please do not make horses fit in the bloody backpack, pocket, underpants or any other container smaller than a horse itself... My opinion is that if you want to have a horse it should be expensive to get it and to "maintain" it. If you go to the woods to cut trees then just tie it to a bloody tree. If you go to the city market go and leave it in the stables (for a fee for example - BOOTS SMALL BUSINESS OWNERS) and other things.
(Horse poachers should have their fun as well i suppose.)

[theinternetman]

Just chipping in I'd rather have Horses only be activate-able and store-able in a constructed Stable building. Horse logging out with you seems reasonable as well, but I know it can be very difficult to have AI programming for the horse to follow a player, plus animations for getting on and off said mount. Of course mounted combat is excessive and doesn't add any real gameplay value beyond being an interesting gimmicky feature so if you want my view on it. I wouldn't advise working on it until the rest of the game is setup. Wait just like Lord of The Ring Online did, gives you something to advertise in an expansion.

Mounts in general seem like a "we'll include it at a later date once all the other necessary systems are in place, bug free, and polished" feature. They're a lot of work for the end result of a movement speed increase.