Life is Feudal Official Forum

[Spaghetto]

Did someone else noticed this?

After multiple defeats, me and my mates made several tests, finding out what it seems the best fighting setup.

1) Naked: best mobility, best soft stamina saver.

2) Agility maxed out: boosts mobility, add stamina, give sniper crosshair for ranged weapons, faster reloads.

3) Bow...'nuff said (no root while reloading).

With same stats, you cannot reach for the archer if you wear any kind of armor; you have to face sniper fire from range while trying to close up distance; you have to be nakeed too to be fast enough to get in melee range, but arrows will put you down far earlier. very dangerous even to run away, due to precision of high agi stat.

Only thing you can do to counter is a nemesis: naked, max agi, bow.

I'm afraid this meta will ruin fight in general, but expecially small fights...encounter you can stumble upon while going to hunt or gather resources.

We run the risk to make all melee/armor obsolete, making fights very boring: a ranged roulette with naked guys.
Does not sounds fun, right?

Has anyone more data, or a solution for this?

[Stormsblade]

Mounted combat will counter naked archers.
Other archers in better armor with equal aim.

Shields, when properly implemented, will help mitigate their effectiveness as well.

I could also see the devs adding in some sort of "reduced speed" while drawing from the quiver, knocking the arrow, and pulling the drawstring.

Post about it here and you will get a dev response:
how-to-properly-report-bugs-t2222/

[Fluffypinkbunny]

There are so many questions and answers on this topic, a quick search of the faq finds a few good ones.
http://lifeisfeudal.gamepedia.com/Faq

59d. What about shields in pvp. If i will be shoot in ppl with shield i can hit in his leg/head? Or i just will be hit his shield every time? Shields will be drain stamina when rising? Or will be broken if they catch enought arrows? Or what? I mean - here is not will be infinite blocking? how i can interapt blocking? 59e. I mean, how do you imagine pvp without magic and especialy without support classes/roles? Its just will be "focus that guy", "focus that guy"? Its will be too fast fight as i can imagine. How you imagine teamwork? Focus on enemy? Cover by shield teammate what have low hp? Rushing on mounts from behind? Using territory for long fly arrows (more arrow distance if from rocks)?

59d,e) Pretty much like it was in medieval times. Formation control, situation control, strategy control (like pikemans vs cavalry, heavy knights vs light infantry, cavalry vs ranged units and such). I got your idea, but it won't be like it was in DF - i hope it will be something new.

89. how will you balance ranged vs melee?

89) Pretty much like it was in real world - shileds>ranged, speed (cavalry)>ranged, range>rest.

118. How do you plan to balance PVP between different classes. I mean (archers versus melee, etc.)?
120) Bobik, what is your personal vision on the archer vs melee (and mouted archer vs foot melee)?

118, 120) Shields>archers in most cases, Archers can't kite some lightly armored troops, archers can't avoid mounted units much. On other hand, archers can kite other troops, can hide in hard places for cavalry and so on.

277. I also read you could climb trees. Does this mean if you have a higher climb skill than who you are attacking (with bow and arrow for example) and they don't have a ranged weapon, you are essentially immortal? Can you even shoot from within a tree? Can the tree be cut down with you in it? How will this interact with bears/wolves trying to kill you?

277) Climbing will be quite slow and will be interrupted by any damage. So using that as an escape route won't help much. And if you've prepared before hand - your victim can just run away and you will be forced to get down to chase him. But we will probably do not implement climbing until later stages of development.

292.Will there be some balance between archers and heavy armored melee units? I mean, will for example swordsman equipped with heaviest plate armor be impervious to arrows? Because logically it should work that way. Will combat mechanics will be build in the way to discourage overpowered hybrids of archers mixed with heavy armored melee?
If PvP system must succeed, there need to be good balance for all these combat skills to avoid hybrid creation, otherwise there wont be pure archers or pure melee.
There should be some specializations each for other type of enemy to balance the gameplay and force people to take different specialization to have a chance against opposing army.

292) Firstly, even heavy armored knight and archer is vulnerable to cavalry and can be outfenced by shield + 1hander. Other then that, 2H melee have 5th tier skill called "Battle cries" that will affect enemies at range and make them stumble while running or tremble while aiming (Fear). We have combat system balance designed and precalculated and it is wider then just archer vs melee or melee vs archer. But it is too early to talk about it, unless we see how it works out.

[Stormsblade]

Well he does raise a good point - There is literally no way any melee can catch an archer if they are wearing any armor.
Perma-kite, with the ability for the archer to make any number of shots.

Even if the melee goes naked, they often cant catch the archer, as archer has more agility and therefore much faster base speed with low weight.

If the only way to beat archery is to be an archer or cavalry in the open field (or a berserker with the coward shout), it will not be so much fun.

Maybe we could use something to stop an archer from being able to kite so freely as a matter of balance.

[Orsus]

I do not believe high agility will increase the range of an archer, so wearing armour and using a bow will counter the naked archer kiting. They can only run into firing range and be hit a couple of times by an armoured archer. Also the armoured archer could be used to heard the naked archer towards melee troops if the naked archer is not on the look out for them.

From an ambush perspective the naked archer will fare better as far as burst damage goes. Get a few shots off and possible kill of hinder the armoured archer or melee. Once the armoured archer is able to load and begin firing however the situation will change significantly.

[Hoshiqua]

Shooting your bow should take a lot of stamina, so archers wouldn't be able to kite that long, but could either stand their ground or just run away, without shooting.

[Stormsblade]

Shooting your bow should take a lot of stamina, so archers wouldn't be able to kite that long, but could either stand their ground or just run away, without shooting.

Aye, that could bring a lot of balance to the equation.
Perhaps 50% stamina for the shot, 50% for a reload/draw.

[Ethanfloodworks]

currently move-out is the best counter to the naked archer, with move out i can run down naked archers on our server consistently. however there are a lot of cries to nerf move out for being OP. When that happens the naked archer really is the king of pvp.

[Stormsblade]

currently move-out is the best counter to the naked archer, with move out i can run down naked archers on our server consistently. however there are a lot of cries to nerf move out for being OP. When that happens the naked archer really is the king of pvp.

Naked Archer can use move out just like you can, and still be quicker

[Orsus]

currently move-out is the best counter to the naked archer, with move out i can run down naked archers on our server consistently. however there are a lot of cries to nerf move out for being OP. When that happens the naked archer really is the king of pvp.

Naked Archer can use move out just like you can, and still be quicker

There is a problem with Moveout currently though, it allows you to receive the speed bonus as long as you are in a group. It is not working correctly since it is only supposed to give you a speed bonus if the other members of your group are in the formation with you.

So once they correct the bug within it, it will benefit neither one, unless they are in a group and the group is with them and in formation as the description of the ability describes as a requirement.
So do take that into consideration, before you plan and using it, as they could fix it at any time.

[Falcion]

Still the problem with naked archers will stay.

I spoke in one topic about the damage that should be inflicted upon those with no armor or clothes only. if such an archer get's hit he's as good as dead. I had my share of swordfights (wooden ones and real ones) not many people could withstand a blow from a wooden sword without being paralyzed by pain. I don't have to say what hppened to those who got hit by accident with a normal one...and they had protection to minimalize damage.

Another thing in range combat, crossbowmen must stop to reload, archers should only be able to walk when reloading not run.


Personally I always carry a crossbow with me, I can't shoot as good as them and not as fast as them, but I can hide behind the trees or walls to reload and one hit with a heavy bolt from a heavy crossbow is all I need to make them think twice.

Still they can be a pain.

[Stormsblade]

Yes, the problem with naked archers has nothing to do with move out as they benefit from it just as much as any other character.

What matters is their higher speed, much higher stamina, resulting in their ability to infinitely kite while firing without much impediment, as there is very little slowing them.

In essence: Simultaneously being quick enough to avoid any and all melee while still being quite deadly at range.

[Shynx]

two things:

first of all, it makes no sense that barefoot running is faster than running with shoes. someone with cloth or leather boots should be faster than someone without any shoes, be it balancewise or realismwise.

secondly, the naked archer breaks immersion as well as gameplay. being naked should give you a debuff. call it "exposure" or "shivering" or whatever. this debuff could reduce your stamina and/or make aiming a lot harder (-> shivering).

any archer (or combat oriented player) should aim for getting the appropriate armor for his specialisation. being naked should never even be a proposition worthy of discussion imo.

as for "archer vs melee" in general, i think its ok for archers to have the advantage when surprising their prey. unless you are wearing chain or plate, it should be possible to outrun him though. reducing movement speed while aiming or reloading seems a good way to ensure that while staying within the realm of realism.

[BartusPL]

Part of old discusion:

There is solution:
If you dont have boot's you can wound you foot, and move slover, and slover(it's worked in Roma Victor), if you don't have pant's or shirt you charakter will be could(in night more than in a day), and take some penalty too(it's worked too), or in another side, if you charakter have good ,and warm cloth's he take some little buff's, because your character fell good. It's simple and realistic.

This will reduce the chances of naked gang.

Topic:
http://lifeisfeudal.com/forum/topic487/

[Azzerhoden]

Movement with a bow drawn should take a massive stam drain, standing with a bow drawn should prevent stam regeneration, and accuracy while moving with a drawn bow should be greatly impaired.

It isn't even a matter of balance. It's realistic.

[Stormsblade]

Movement with a bow drawn should take a massive stam drain, standing with a bow drawn should prevent stam regeneration, and accuracy while moving with a drawn bow should be greatly impaired.

It isn't even a matter of balance. It's realistic.

Releasing an arrow with less stamina than it costs to pull the bow (indicating you were running/kiting, and are breathing heavily) should also make the shot far less accurate.

[Aingeal]

The thing with this game is that it tries to simulate reality. I believe balance can be achieved in a realistic way.

Yes, if you are light (no armor) you should move faster than someone carrying weight.

Yes, drawing a bow should take stamina. I'm an avid bow user and after a dozen shots within a short period of time, my arm is sore and I'm a little tired. Even after I draw, holding the draw continues to wear me down. When I'm reloading, it is actually a small resting period. Your stamina should regen back at this time. The current issue with stamina is that it regenerates too fast. If I draw-fire-draw-fire shot after shot, without stopping, I should not regain back the stamina I use and should result in a net loss. Thus shoot-run-shoot should result in OOS rather quickly.

As for moving with the bow drawn. It's possible to walk and shoot. It's even possible to run and shoot. The problem is that accuracy goes out the window if you run and shoot, not to mention that it would be exhausting thus your stamina will/should bottom out very quickly. Walking and shooting, while possible, means a noticeable drop in accuracy.

Strength should determine both bow range and damage. While drawing my bow does tire me and my arm, it's my upper body strength that determine my upper limit when it comes to how many pounds my bow's draw can be. The greater the pounds, the further the arrow will travel and the more penetrating power it has at a given range.

This all pertains to bows but what about crossbows. The benefit of crossbows is that the string is held back mechanically. They typically take both hands/arms to draw the string back.

Their range and damage is fixed and not based on strength. They should have the range and penetrating power of a character with high strength using a bow since both arms are used to draw the string and not just one and how it's done offers better leverage. They will be more accurate than a regular bow for characters with lower agility while character's with higher agility will see little to no difference in accuracy.

Sound better than bows right? Well they are not without drawbacks. Slower reload time than bows and you should have to stop to reload. Here is a pic of what a medieval crossbow looked like (one of many different designs).

http://tedlington.files.wordpress.com/2 ... ossbow.jpg

That "handle" out in front is actually a foot hold. The user steps on it while drawing the string back with both hands. Meaning that the person would not be moving.

This should solve the potential "meta" problem in a realistic way. Since range is determined by strength, the naked archer with the focus in agility won't be able to get their higher strength, armor wearing, target within range without being in range of said target if they happen to switch to a bow. While the naked archer has better accuracy (higher agility), the armored target is armored. So the naked archer can hit the armored target more often without missing, the armored target doesn't have to hit the naked archer as much to put him/her down. Thus equal footing.

Now you may be saying that this is armored archer vs naked archer. What about archer vs melee user? Well this is just where shields need to come into play properly (further development).

Shields should stop arrows causing little to no harm and the melee user should be able to run while blocking. It should not take stamina to raise the shield into a blocking position. The only time stamina should drain is when you actually block an attack. Arrows should cause very little drain to someone blocking with a shield. Meaning that the archer doing their run-shoot-run will OOS before the melee user leaving the archer no choice but to flee or die.

Now you may be thinking that melee would be OP vs archers and the meta would be melee.

The way I see it, is that there are three fighting styles in the game currently. Two hand weapon, one hand w/ shield, ranged. In which case the balance is rock/paper/scissors.

One Hand w/ Shield beats Range.
Two Hand beats One Hand w/ Shield
Range beats Two Hand

How and why?

You can block with a melee weapon but should only be able to block melee weapons. A melee weapon should not be able to block arrows, only shields.

Stamina should drain while blocking only when you actually block and the amount of drain should be based on the weight of the weapon (as well as the strength of the person) being blocked. Thus a two handed weapon user would beat the one hand w/ shield user with all else equal. The high damage of the two handed weapon means more damage is getting through the block. The one hand w/ shield user should OOS sooner and with no stamina to block with, they take the full brunt of the attack.

Edit:

Something else that could balance the situation in a realistic way is with running. If agility is currently the primary stat behind running and stamina, it shouldn't. The act of running primarily involves pushing your weight forward with your legs. Professional runners have lean bodies and strong legs. This makes strength the primary attribute behind how fast you can run.

Agility would be a secondary since agility would refer to how accurately you place your feet. Taking professional runners as an example, even if both are equally lean and strong, one can still win over the other by having better technique and technique is primarily governed by agility since it is the precise positioning of one's own body.

Stamina and how long you can exert yourself for comes down to cardio (and will power). The 'strength' of your cardiovascular system is primarily governed by your constitution with strength being the secondary.


So to sum up.

Strength:

Primary attribute for the damage of one handed and two handed weapons as well as the damage and range of bows (not crossbows)

Primary attribute for how fast you can run.

Secondary attribute for your endurance.


Agility:

Primary attribute for how accurate you are with a bow (crossbow included).

Secondary attribute for how fast you can run.

Should have no impact on endurance.


Constitution:

Primary attribute for your endurance.

[Ishamael]

Yep, archers are OP at the moment. I'm sure they will address it in a later patch, but for now just go archer naked with max agility.

You gotta change tactics for best pvp as game evolves... before this it was pikes with bleed, then heavy X with moving reload, now this... Adapt! The more of these uber builds we find in alpha the better release will be.

[Orsus]

To bad they cannot be countered with animal traps.

[Tymefor]

Possibly potions will fix this. The speed potion for melle thrying to close with the archer.

There is also a slowing potion which would likely be ranged.

Also. Like most of the combat discussions. Not everything is implemented yet so its a bit had to have a proper conversation really.

War cries for example. NYI - "Coward" - Targeted enemy gets great speed increase, but also a chance to stumble and falldown. Trembling hands (harder to hit with ranged weapons)

casting that while advancing with a shield or just juking about should probably ruin the archer.