Life is Feudal Official Forum

[Demonic]

From all I can read, see or hear about this game, I can say you are creating large game with many possibilities.

I am pretty sure, there won't be a person which would like all aspects of the game. Don't get me wrong, that's not a bad thing, most of us will simply do the things we like and ignore those we don't.

The main problem I see in this concept is this: "How are you going to make sure, that all possible playstiles will be viable?" Somewhere on this forum I saw a post in which his author claimed, that large PvP factions would control the world and thus control or destroy anyone who don't want to PvP.

And i somehow have a problem with this. Aye, i know life IS feudal, but it's still a game. And I am not sure if you can afford to scare non - PvP players or players who don't want to be part of something big.

For example, I myself prefer company of a few others, rather then a big guild. I like to build, craft, hunt etc... all by myself or just In a small group.

If some large PvP guild will constantly raid my place or hunt me and my friends, just because thay can, it would ruin my fun and fun is what games should be in the first place.

So, will I have a chance to play how I want, or should I start looking for other games, because without being member of a large group, i won't stand a chance?

What exactly (apart from the alignment system) stops other players from simply bullying the loner? How powerfull and how large is the personal claim? Can anybody bring a siege ram, brake my palisade gate and lay waste to my stuff or will it be a little more difficult to do that? (I am not that naive to thing it would be impossible... Life IS feudal xD )

[SaresITA89]

none can loot in your home/territory of guild.
none forbids you to stay in small guilds.

to destroy the buildings of the guild, have declared war and start a sige
usually in these games, it is declared with a guild stone

among other things, if you're hunting for animals and meetings pk (player killer), if you do not want to lose your booty hunting, you will be forced to fight and kill him.

[Demonic]

Yeah, I know that, but I somehow fear that I will log in, just to find a group of PvPers on my doorstep demanding all my stuff else they kill me. I can accept that once in a time, but what is stopping them from doing this all the time? Will I be forced to PvP or will there be some sort of preventing this?

[SaresITA89]

Yeah, I know that, but I somehow fear that I will log in, just to find a group of PvPers on my doorstep demanding all my stuff else they kill me. I can accept that once in a time, but what is stopping them from doing this all the time? Will I be forced to PvP or will there be some sort of preventing this?

you can always pay mercenaries to defend yourself.

Usually, you just live in the vicinity (near) of large guilds, and so you have their protection, obviously paying taxes that they require.

but, if you're hunting for animals and meetings pk (player killer), if you do not want to lose your loot hunting, you will be forced to fight and kill him.

[Demonic]

So... let's say I find some remote place I build a small house there, some other structures and protect it with personal claim and palisade walls. If I understand it correctly, I should be completely safe inside that palisade and my stuff too.

But when I venture out for hunting or to sell my stuff, I have to be carefull and watch out for PKs?

Well... if this is correct, then i think I'll manage

[Kuroi]

let's wait for Bossbik for a proper answer

[Telakh]

I am sure there will be possibilities to defend you property but don't you get blinded by that. You WILL be weaker than PVP faction if you are not in the ranks of another one just because it is a PvP game.

Yet it is a sandbox. Meaning you will be able to chop/dig/build houses and fortifications. But they decay, they can be destroyed and they will be destroyed, no game meachanics will defend them. Only the men can.
I am saying this according to my sandbox game experience.

You can stay in the city under protection of city walls and city guards. But if you want to go in the wild - get organised and bring friends with you, not just 2-3 but many. If you prefer to play mudpies in a sandbox - expect that somday someone will step on them and you will be forced to go away... or to pay the tax to live in there.

You always have an option. Waste you time to build up a guild around you, not matter if you are the leader or just a memeber of one, or... waste time to build another hermit house after your previous one was destroyed once again... and again.

Guild stones/claims will not be cheap and the only protection they provide is 24 hours to prepare for siege and gather forces to defend it. And lesser decay. The only conclusion I want you to make - a hermit is always weaker than a group, and no game mechanics will change it and protect your "I want a small farm to play alone".

You say you want to play for fun. Lets say, raiders want to play for fun as well. The developer decide you both to have fun. One is having fun while defending his property, others having fun while raiding it. If they can't raid you, they will not have fun. Your fun is to create a farm? But you want to play a PvP game like it is a non-pvp and force others to accept your vision and change game rules? Its like... you sit to play chess but then yell "I hate the idea to loose the queen. Lets play like it is cheсkers!"

This game is a sandbox. Meaning you can build everywhere, terraform, dig. If your buildings will not decay or be destroyed, the world will soon be like wasteland, full of noob-farms.
We have 20x20km map.. Consider that 1/3 of it can be occupied. Lets say we split it among 10k players and what do we have? 100x100 meters farm for every player, no trees, no passes to water, no wild animals. Are we going to build NY?

This is M.M.O.

[SaresITA89]

yeah! NYC!!!

[Demonic]

@Telakh

So, you are basically saying, that only PvP guilds with players who like to group up should have fun? Kind of egoistic. If you are finding fun in destroying other's people work... than do it to some other PvP guild, which is able to defend itselves and which actually LIKES fighting and defending their stuff.

It looks like devs are making game for a lot different types of players, but one type is basically saying:

"We are more than you, and if you don't want to play by our rules, go bite the dust...."

Yeah it IS sandbox, but it IS still a game and all of us should have right to have fun, not just one type of players.

[Dailato]

Not to contradict everything that's just been said but... Being a lone-wolf/explorer seems like it will be quite a viable playstyle.

Now ofcourse you will be better off with such a playstyle (just as ANY playstyle) if you do so as part of a guild, it's an MMO after all and the multiplayer/community aspects are what make it great.

Back to the topic though, there is a factor called the "Civilization rating" that greatly decreases the amount of animals that spawn, and their quality, when near areas with many players/towns.
(Not sure if this counts for trees/other resources as well, but don't think so)

This means as a hunter, you have to go quite far out into the wilds to find good game.
It might even be more convenient to set up a hermit shack out in the woods (alongside your personal claim for some chests and such) and wait with transporting your goods back to your guild's town/a trading post till you have a decently large amount.
Or just have one of your friends pick it up instead.

Exploring to find, possibly personal claim, and relay the location of high quality trees, or marble, or even a mineral vein, can also be of use to your entire guild. These things don't respawn by themselves, so getting to them before someone else does is important. Alternatively you might try to sell the location as a freelancer (especially with veins of rare minerals or rock, this could be worthwhile).

I could also see civilization rating affecting things like the rarity/quality of herbs found for alchemy.


At any rate you have to remember, this is NOT EvE-online. There will not be an area chat that shows you everyone who comes in and goes out, including their standing with your guild, and there WILL be big penalties for needlessly griefing people (imagine if low security rating in EvE caused you to lose skillpoints on death, and you couldn't grind any npc's to increase it. Yeah.)

In short, while there will probably be some (large) pvp-focussed guilds/factions out there, and sure some might just KoS everyone and anyone for teh lulz, they won't have as easy of a time finding you as in EvE-online, or as few consequences for killing you and stealing your stuff.

In general I expect the big pvp-alliances to be more focussed on fighting wars with other nations, rather than trying to hunt down the lone guy which happens to be killing a few boars somewhere in the woods a half mile away from their main settlement. Whether or not they elect to only attack guilds who don't pose any challenge... meh, they might get bored with that I guess. If not that's what kingdoms are for, so we can all join one of a few big happy families that extort 90% of the guilds beneath them leading to a massive revolt where all the guilds leave the kingdom and attack the guild that started it in unison. But hey, life is feudal.

Yours truly -The Pope.

[Demonic]

Now that is something I overlooked. That concept of being part of a guild, while still living alone as some kind of hunter or prospector could be fun

[Telakh]

Who should one respect your life while you can't stand for it? Eve experienve fits well here. If you are alone and away from safe sectors you must be prepared to be outnumbered, robbed, killed, skinned and eaten. And are lucky if they do it in described sequence.

You come in a multiplayer game and for what reason do you expect to be equal in strength and wealth to a more organised community? Of course it is not fun if you are killed but saying that murder in a pvp game is unfair makes no sence.

[Demonic]

You kind of misunderstand what I meant here. I don't mind paying taxes/tributes/hush money as long as it stays in reasonable amounts. I never wanted to be as strong as a whole Guild. What I fear is large Guild simply raiding and destroying my stuff just for fun, without giving me a chance to pay or do something about it.

If personal claim buys me a few days to find some protection (i.e. hire mercs, pay some guild for protection), before thay can raid my place, I am satisfied. If they can come anytime despite my palisades, than I am not satisfied.

Maybe the problem is within me, maybe I am too peacefull and tolerant for this kind of games, but I simply can't understand people who think about nothing but their personal gain. (In games. I can understand them IRL, but not in games.)

[Dailato]

Now that is something I overlooked. That concept of being part of a guild, while still living alone as some kind of hunter or prospector could be fun

yep ^^ and fishing/herbalism might be a thing too ^^ deva have mentioned you will need a strong economy to best function as a guild, and supply your crafters with goods,and that wont be possible with people just hanging out in the middle of town P

Who should one respect your life while you can't stand for it? Eve experienve fits well here. If you are alone and away from safe sectors you must be prepared to be outnumbered, robbed, killed, skinned and eaten. And are lucky if they do it in described sequence.

You come in a multiplayer game and for what reason do you expect to be equal in strength and wealth to a more organised community? Of course it is not fun if you are killed but saying that murder in a pvp game is unfair makes no sence.

Well because, unlike eve online, as i mentioned, there are actual personal consequences to dying in this game, ones that take TIME ro replace, rather than just money. and that cost goes up greatly if you have negative alignment, which you will get if you kill people you have no legitimate reason to kill, and can only go up, slowly, by being peaceful and sticking to targets your at war with or who attack you first.

And no, life isnt fair, life is feudal, but that doesnt mean we want the game to be a massive free for all KoS fest with no real consequences for killing or being killed. Thats not an mmo anymore, thats an oversized call of duty map.

And as you say, nobody expects to be equal in power or wealth as a solo player, compared to a whole guild/alliance. But that doesnt mean that guild/alliance has no consequences for killing every solo player they come across for no reason.

Having power or money does not, in fact, put you above the laws of god, my child. If youre going to play this game you must take that into account.

Yours truly -The Pope

[Dailato]

You kind of misunderstand what I meant here. I don't mind paying taxes/tributes/hush money as long as it stays in reasonable amounts. I never wanted to be as strong as a whole Guild. What I fear is large Guild simply raiding and destroying my stuff just for fun, without giving me a chance to pay or do something about it.

If personal claim buys me a few days to find some protection (i.e. hire mercs, pay some guild for protection), before thay can raid my place, I am satisfied. If they can come anytime despite my palisades, than I am not satisfied.

Maybe the problem is within me, maybe I am too peacefull and tolerant for this kind of games, but I simply can't understand people who think about nothing but their personal gain. (In games. I can understand them IRL, but not in games.)

If it lightens your fears, my child, I can inform you that buildings, as long as they are on your claim, are immune to beig raided/destroyed. And if you build a palisade around them (on your claim) they cannot enter unless you leave the gates open.

To take over your shit they can simply place a guild claim next to your claim, and it will override your claim. There will however be a few days delay or some other mechanic, which will give you time to negotiate or pack up and leave.

On a personal note Ive only noticed people being more selfish in games, not less. There is less social control and consequences to being a dick in games, and what tendencies people have irl, but are forced to repress die to the norma of society, come out in spades in the, mostly anonymous, gaming community.

The papal state will take some efforts to adress this, as the kingdom of god on earth, though in what fashion and to what extent has yet to be decided.

If your interested in joining a guild of likeminded individuals(though not directly related to LiF) feel free to PM me, I'll patch you through.

Yours truly, The Pope

[Slytacular]

I don't think it is possible to raid other people's property if it is claimed. Demonic, I think you're misunderstanding the balance of the game. It takes too long to build anything in the game. Why would the developers give free reign for raiders to knock down your walls and home?

The purpose of creating this game is so that a player may interact with a community as much as he/she wants, but may be forced to live under the protection of a guild. The player that is expected to live under a guild/country/kingdom will possibly be forced to commit to PVP wars as well. I suppose people would rather commit to a glorious PvP war, than a small war excuse for raiders to declare on to hermits.

The game gives equal opportunity for the war-waging players and economical conformists. There is a balance between living as a hermit, and living under a large faction name.

The only issue of the game I have yet to see is how many people can be crammed into one map, and how and when will structures be brought down.

[Dailato]

Amount of people in one "hex" or what you want to call the area governed by a single server, is said to be able to handle a few hundred players simultaneously, though the central city hex may have a higher limit. It may be possible to let lower strained servers add some computong power to the higher strained ones, but no more details will be known until they have the server cluster up and running.

it has also been said that large battles may be handled by a seperate, instanced server.

structures will be destroyable during "siege phase" of a war, though what exactly this means is unknown as of yet.

Yours truly, The Pope.

[Demonic]

I don't think it is possible to raid other people's property if it is claimed. Demonic, I think you're misunderstanding the balance of the game. It takes too long to build anything in the game. Why would the developers give free reign for raiders to knock down your walls and home?

Well, I am now convinced, I will be able to play as I want

[Telakh]

Lets separate killing and raiding topics just because we mix them for no reason.

Any defences loose their sence if they can be instantly broken without any chance for defenders to prepare. As well as the game itself makes no sence if you simply can't raid or demolish anything.
The ballance is somewhere in the middle. Claims do offer protection but personal claim is much weaker than the guild claim, palisade can hardly be compared to the castle walls.
All of us will be weak in the beginning, but I see no way some hermit can defend his gold mine against some PvP Guild that decides to capture it.

[Demonic]

Well... but if some "hermit" lives on the gold mine, than he has poor sense of chosing locations .

And by the way, "I want Gold mine." is completely legit reason for attacking someone's house. At least in game But I would still prefer if the guild tried to negotiate with the poor fella, maybe give him a chance to move, so he won't lose his stuff, except for the gold mine.

@Telakh: I am not a naive person, group will almost always be stronger than a single person. My point is, lot of players in MMOs and Multiplayer Sandboxes are extremly selfish and they don't think about other people. I was worried mostly about meaningles killing and stealing, just for the fun of it. I don't like players who think only about themselves (and/or their group). No offense, but according to your opinions, you are one of that type. I don't like them, because they are unable or unwilling to seek compromise between their fun and goals and the fun of other players.

Let's take the example you mentioned. Your type would simply come, use anything he can to destroy "hermit's" base and take what they want along with his stuff. He don't care about the other player, he don't give him a chance. If I would want the gold, I would try to negotiate a trade or some kind of deal, before I would use a raw violence. Why? Because I don't want to ruin HIS fun.

If the Guild has a legit reason for attacking, (and in LiF, possesion of rare resource IS legit reason) than I still disagree with that attack, but I won't say it's unfair, simply because it's the way the game was designed.

But, if the Guild has NO reason apart from: "I want to kill/destroy/raid" Than it IS unfair and I can't understand it.

[Telakh]

Don't bring morale in to statistics and take particular case as a general example. I am speaking about general ingame politics, that depend on game mechanics mostly, while you start to absolve my sins.

If anything can be broken - it will be broken and any player should be prepared for that, not taking any particular case in to consideration.

Players will be forced to gather in to feudal structure. Hermits in to Guilds.
Guilds in to Allicances.
Alliances in to Kingdoms.

What I point is that there will be no place left for "wild" hermit settelment in the wilds.

[Demonic]

Why exactly? If they simply want to live somewhere far away, hunting and logging, far from rare resources, without aspiring for a politics, thay can. Or do you thing that even those guys, without any rare stuff, would be killed and/or their settlement destroyed by some Guild?

Of course, if that guild is doing it "just for the lulz" then even they are not safe...

BTW, if the game forces you to play her some way, than it's not a true sandbox. Sandbox is about freedom and without a choice "How I want to play", there is no freedom and thus, no sandbox.

[Dailato]

I've got to agree with demonic here if only for the simple fact that the game world is 450 Sq KM, and a guilds claiming will at most be like, an acre or two.

comparing those two, 2 acres (or for simplicity's sake, 100 by 100 m) equals 0.01 sq KM.

if we had, say... 400 guilds with a claim (which is really way more than I expect, but let's roll with it), spaced out reasonably evenly across the world (excluding a large area directly around the central city)

the average distance between the center of these guild claims would be about 1 KM. Let's say the guilds influence (patrols, most of their logging and mining and such) extend into another 150 m radius around the edge of their settlement. This still leaves, on average, 500 meters of no mans land in between these guilds claims.

Obviously guilds will not be "evenly" spread out, and alliances will tend to band many of their claims together to form big, communally protected cities, leaving some areas much farther from civilization than others.

Even if they were though, the 400 guild claims + influence radius would take up only 25 sq KM out of 450. Leaving 425 sq km of no-mans land between them where hermits could thrive relatively unmolested.


@Telakh, you mention if it can be broken it will be broken, and you're right, but to "break" someones personal claim (and attack the stuff on it) you have to override it with your guilds claim, which not only costs time and resources to build, it also means you are essentially telling your guild:
"guys, we're gonna relocate our whole town just because we want to fuck over this one random guy we came across in the middle of nowhere."

because your home town will decay (and be open to attack and looting, since it has no longer the guild claim to protect it) while you're busy pissing that guy off.

If you can find a bunch of guys willing to go for that, all power to you. But don't expect the majority of the player base to be on board, and enforce every hermit to "Join or die". It is waayyyyy more effort than it's worth, pvp focussed guild or not.

Yours truly -The Pope

[Telakh]

The world if not that big as you hope. 21x21km is the size of the map. but there are mountains, seas, lakes, rivers... It leaves much lesss suitable place. Besides, 1km is a distance that you can walk in 5 minutes. Not too much if you need to go and harrass your neighbour.
Now lets take EVE as a single-server-sandbox game example. they have 5k+ solar systems and more than plenty of competitors for each of them. Do you realy hope that overpopulated world will let someone to "get lost in the wilds" so easily?

Guild claim is required to remove someone's personal claim but does not prevent from raiding it. For example, I can build another guild claim just to raid some fat-noob settelment. I can throw up a small dirt hill or climb a tree and then shoot ower the walls.

You don't get the point. We are speaking about playstyles and I don't think all these hermit-like fantasies will happen. The world is not big enough to get lost in there. At some time a random guild will come to your place and decide that it will suit better for their guild residence and you will be forced out. Or be killed continiously whenever you walk outside the door. Seriously, 1 week of hardcore training and anyone gets a bunch of killer-characters that kill anything on sight with no care to their carma. The only thing that can protect you will be your own guild. And the alliance. And the kingdom. If you are not goinf to be an active part of it, then they will not need you and you will perish.
Another example. Lets imagine we have 2k players online. (average WoW server pop) and 200 square km. of land. this means there will be 10 players on each square kilometer in average. Considering that we have 200m view distance, you will always have 2-3 persons in view. No privacy.

[Dailato]

hmmm i definitely see your point. Id still argue its the mountains and thick forests, too much of a pain to clear out and level, thatd make for good homes for a little hermit shack, but yeah, it is ofcourse entirely possible to harass people if you feel like it (though I dont really see the fun in killing someone whos practically defenseless over and over again, but thats a personal preference)
Also i was heavily under the impression you could only have a single guild claim.

the point you bring up about killer alts is well made, and id suggest that the devs take this into consideration when deciding on multiple chars per account or not.

considering eve online: it is technically much bigger, but every solarsystem is essentially one location, as local chat gives away everyone present instantly. Even so, player population is massively concentrated into various hubs, and once you enter lo/nullsec (and get past the campers) there are dozens of systems which lie entirely deserted. And thats nothing compared to W-space.

comparing to WoW,, well yeah thats kinda true... but only if your in a high level daily questing zone or one of the major cities. Most of the time levelling up its rarity to even meet anyone at all. to the point where its hard to think theres actually 2000 people online.

but i digress, you may well have a point, though i hope the measures in place will be enough for loners to make a living, if not necesarilly a very prosperous one. not having some hermits living in the woods just wouldnt feel right p more like a castle battle and maintenance simulator than a living world p

[Telakh]

I do not know exactly all the future game mechanics yet but considering that Bobik&Co have UO and H&H in their game experience, and take many mechanics examples from there, the game may become very much alike.

Killer alts is a thing that you can't avoid. If character number will be restricted for the account karma will be unified for the account, there will be people with numerous accounts then.

And I still consider that hermits is a plankton for guilds if it is an open-pvp world, though you may be right and they will be some-what protected by game mechanics. But I forsee enormous number of buildings on server then.

[Cian]

Actually I have to disagree that there will be no place for the hermits. Here is my rational since we are sort of implementing it in our kingdom structure eventually.

"Hermits" as you call them would be called Freemen or Yeoman.

What is the difference between a peasant and a Freeman? The difference is this.

We would allow "Freeman" to live within our realm in exchange for military service or resources and an agreement to obey the laws and dictates of the realm. Otherwise they are free to do as they please most of the time on their own homestead.

In this way, we can have several classes in society. The Lords, their Soldiers, and peasants living in the cities or individual estates.

Then you have the Freeman with small one or two man Homesteads that can be called on for military service and won't be forced to exist within the formal guild structure.

The Chancellor or whatever would be expected to maintain a record of the "Freemen" living within the realm.

It's feasible. It may not be easy, but we recognize that some people simply don't want to join a clan. We understand that.

[Telakh]

Wait-wait! You are very correct in describing an ordinary feudal structure and I am pretty much sure that you will succeed in organising it, as well as we will stick to similar plan as well.

But in my context, "hermits" are not the same as feudal farmers that live on a guild land and receive protection for their taxes.
Hermits are players that play sandbox as a single-player minecraft and disagree to pay any taxes. They try to settle far away from neighbours and they avoid participation in any military activites.

It seems like we have moved the discussion from this thread here

[Cian]

I think even in your context being a hermit is possible. It really depends on how militaristic and territorial a player kingdom wants to be. Some may allow people to hermit on their "percieved" land and some may not.

A smart hermit will find a place that has all the basic resources but nothing truly rare like gold or silver. Then a kingdom has no incentive to bother them unless they run out of building space or get annoyed by somthing the hermit does.

[John]

Hermits, or players playing alone, at least shouldn't have protected territory or we might run into the same problem minecraft servers running "protected territory plugins" tend to have, every meter you walk will be owned by a single person who might not even play anymore, resulting in a lot of abandoned buildings for miles until you reach the unprotected and thus ownable areas.