Life is Feudal Official Forum

[hasaosan]

been a hell of a long time since i posted here... but this sounds epic

[Demonic]

TL;DR the reputation system could be griefed, forcing people to buy new people, or quit the game

Alignement

I can't direct you to the exact posts where Bobik shared this info, but:

1, You can kill anyone who is marked as trespaser, criminal, evil and/or your guilds are in state of war without penalty.

2, You can only cross the -50 line by commiting a murder. Robbing, trespassing, or knocking out doesn't count. (It can lower you alignement to -50, but it can't push you below it. You have to murder someone for that.)

So... If you meet someone, who will clearly have ill intentions, you'll strike him first and then knock him out when he yields, you gain only -2 points, which can be back in 2 days.

If you won't strike first, you'll block his first attack (which will still damage you but only little bit) and then you'll kill him, you gain 0 points of alignement.

All in all, becoming a permament criminal won't be easy (at least if all the info provided by Bobik is acurrate) and you have to actively murder people to sink below -50. Even if you have -50 already, even if he provokes you and you'll strike the first blow, as long as you won't kill him (just knock him down) you won't be labeled as evil for life.

/Edit/
And since you won't get penalties for actions against factions who are in war with your guild, you can't loose alignement for fighting in war (which is something you could in MO if I understand you correctly)

[Heflar]

MO system is flawed cause you can give a murdercount to anyone that JUST HIT you, on LIF you get a heavy alignment loss just when giving the fatal blow i guess

i agree that MO system is flawed heavily, but it is a hard thing to balance.
if 100 people hit a single person once, do they all recieve a murder count? or just the person who landed the last blow?
what is stopping guilds from making "executioners" people to land the last blow.
i think having all participants in a players death, result in a penalty system, perhaps the % of the players hp that you done, results in the % of reputation loss you would have got if you had murdered them alone, eg if you done 10% of the persons hp, and they give -10 reputation, you would gain 10% of -10 reputation = -1 reputation gained, i like this, but it could encourage zerg's.
or perhaps have a reputation loss which is split equally among the participants, eg, 5 people kill a person who results in -10 loss of reputation, each participant loses 2 reputation, this also can encourage zerging, a way to counter this could be to make it that the player will always lose half of the reputation for killing a player no matter what, eg
-10 reputation gain for killing a person lets call this Z, lets say 4 people kill this person N = number of killers
(Z/N)+(Z/2)= Y (-7.5)
if Y>Z then X = Z else X = Y , so X = -7.5 this way you can never gain more murdercount than you would have if you killed them alone, but you also are less encouraged to zerg players since the overall reputation gain is 4*-7.5 = - 30 ,3 times the amount if you had 1 vs 1 that player.

and if anyone is destroying someone else's house they'll be flagged as Trespasser and probably can be hit/killed with no penalty

Bobik will surely make it clearer

having a proper working territory control could work well,attacking the house could flag the player as "killable" where the owner of the property and ally's can kill the "killable" player without penalty, i think this should be the case if anybody enters your property who is not an ally.

If you are in the zone of which a house is being destroyed at any point of the houses destruction, then the player would suffer heavy reputation loss perhaps? unless you are an ally of the person who owns the property, unless the player switches ally stance during the destruction of his house, then the previous "ally" can receive reputation loss, this could counter exploitation of the ally system.

there are many ways to make these things work, i am just curious to what the developer picks, until then i cannot give a good opinion of the cost of moving a char to the "mainland".

[Heflar]

So... If you meet someone, who will clearly have ill intentions, you'll strike him first and then knock him out when he yields, you gain only -2 points, which can be back in 2 days.

2 days for making someone yield is very steep, i would become evil in no time just defending myself

If you won't strike first, you'll block his first attack (which will still damage you but only little bit) and then you'll kill him, you gain 0 points of alignement.

i would hope you can loot him without penalty also

All in all, becoming a permament criminal won't be easy (at least if all the info provided by Bobik is acurrate) and you have to actively murder people to sink below -50. Even if you have -50 already, even if he provokes you and you'll strike the first blow, as long as you won't kill him (just knock him down) you won't be labeled as evil for life.

it seems like becoming evil will be very easy if you can only gain 1 Alignment a day, especially for people who can play for extended times in a day, what if i seen 5 people who were heavily geared coming towards me, the firs guy attacks me and i am kiting them while attacking them, say i land a hit on each of the members, even the ones that did not land a blow on me first, i gain -6 alignment due to hitting 3 of them before they hit me, i die anyway and have alignment loss. and that is just one encounter.

And since you won't get penalties for actions against factions who are in war with your guild, you can't loose alignement for fighting in war (which is something you could in MO if I understand you correctly)

you could only declare war on 2 guilds i think it was when i was playing, so we picked the people we fought with the most, and i think also the enemy had to accept the war declaration, which was terrible, because the only people who benifit from a war declaration was the murderers, since the "innocent" people would not gain any penalties from killing our people due the the fact we were all branded murderers due to defending, since there was no penalties for destroying property (for half of us, not all of us were saints), so they would never accept the war declarations.

there is many things wrong with this system, for eg, why limit the amount of war declarations, when the entire server hates us and is constantly comeing to try kill us, die in the process and we become more "evil" in doing so, the only reason they come to kill us is because we are labeled as killers, when they were the ones that made us this way.

i would hope there to be some type of system in place to gain alignment, because 1 alignment gain a day would not allow me to play the game or enjoy any of the features if any people in the game were to disagree with how i do things

[Arthua]

Evil Alignment Issue

If becoming irreversibly evil is too easy, then it would become cool and commonplace; deeming the whole system moot. There should be a point of no return for "good" players aswell.

Or atleast a harsh penalty for being irreversibly evil. That way, all players would try their hardest to not become to evil as to not hinder their success.



Money Issue
20$ for you first character (You essentially just bought the game.)

5$ for additional characters. Honestly, having to pay any money at all is enough of a deterrent. The griefer must TRULY, be dedicated to the troll-life to pay for another character.

But I know lots of people who like to restart on new characters, just for the lulz. A 5$ fee allows those who like a fresh start (new name, etc), and also allows you guys to make a nice income.

Hey, if you guys can push it to 10$ and still make money, go for it.

The quality of this product is key. If the game is good, people will pay.

[Alpha]

I can't wait for this game to be released and the price seems very reasonable.

[P0stpwned]

Evil Alignment Issue

Money Issue
20$ for you first character (You essentially just bought the game.)

5$ for additional characters. Honestly, having to pay any money at all is enough of a deterrent. The griefer must TRULY, be dedicated to the troll-life to pay for another character.

But I know lots of people who like to restart on new characters, just for the lulz. A 5$ fee allows those who like a fresh start (new name, etc), and also allows you guys to make a nice income.

Hey, if you guys can push it to 10$ and still make money, go for it.

The quality of this product is key. If the game is good, people will pay.

Remember, these are euros, not dollars, so the amount in dollars will be more (especially, as I mentioned, garbage Canadian dollars which are in freefall at the moment).

[Elysana]

I think the price is very reasonable.

I don't mind if I have to pay more to get another character into the mainland if it means that griefing will be lessened.

[Krevente]

In regards to the faction situation we all need to keep in mind that this won't be your traditional guild vs. guild arrangement. Guilds as orders will come together to form realms and realms will form Kingdoms. If your Kingdom declares war on another kingdom then there will be a significant amount of legal targets versus the system MO had.

[Cian]

I voted for Option B. Let me go through my reasoning.

First off, I concur that paying per character will reduce the amount of griefing in a game. However, I feel that the amount should be 8-10 euro per character rather than 20 euro. I understand that 20 euro might eliminate alt griefing entirely, I'd like to point out that it would likely receive a strong backlash from the gaming media that would inevitably hurt the total number of players willing to try the game.

Secondly, I think that one of the most effective mechanisms to reduce anonymous griefing would be instituting a dual system of mandatory Surnames or Last Names for those of us that are not english majors. Please consider requiring mandatory matching last names for all characters on the same account that way a reputation follows the account no matter how many characters they create. Evading that reputation would require an entirely new account and another 20 euros.

Thirdly, I think that land ownership allotments should be tied to the account and not the character. That way it would ensure that making alts would not allow sombody to own more land than one person should have. In order for that to be effective, all characters on the account must have the same permissions and abilities on the shared account lands.

Finally, this is not an easy subject. I urge you to consider that many of us voting for the option A or B are the hard core fan base. You must consider the effect any decision you make in terms of the average gamer who is just learning about LIF. Too harsh of a financial demand may chase away the critical mass of players required to make the servers seem not empty.

I don't typically like the idea of catering to the "average gamer" since the needle has been swinging in the wrong direction for 10 years, but they provide the income and they will likely be the future of LIF or any other new MMO. Yes they are fickle and they will dump a game over stupid easily solved issues. I am aware of that fact.

[finalreview]

IMO: 1 Account (try the best you can to ban all multi) 1 character. You will always have a few hardcore players who will pay to risk multi account for an advantage but in a game like this if you have 500 people in your kingdom I highly doubt the few savvy enough to get away with multi would make much of a difference.

As for espionage there has to be some risk or cost to it. If you can pay 10 and level a new toon to max in a week, every single major kingdom will have multiple spies in every competitors kingdom. If you want to be a spy and you don't multi account you will have to delete your character and play the game 100% with their kingdom. I hope this game flourishes and has multiple servers FULL status, but most likely you will know the names of the of your enemies.

If there has to be alts, I want 20-30 first character, 20,30,40,50 for alts.

Fuck alts.




EDIT: add poll for Fuck alts. I don't want any of the choices.

[Cian]

I agree with you but I think spies in a kingdom are going to be a problem no matter what. Plenty of clans are willing to pay any amount of money for an advantage. No amount of euros is going to change that.

[Proximo]

One of my biggest questions is how your going to afford to keep the server(s) up and develop needed content. Many player's will only have 1 character and 20 euros is only 30 dollars Canadian currently. a AAA console game sells for 60-80 dollars on average and most of the time that's ripping us off yet people buy them.

If your going to bank on 1 time buys and a cash shop that isn't pay to win I would suggest a monthly fee. A monthly fee of 5 euros aswell as the first character being 20 euros and the 5 for another character slot.

This will still deter bots and put a cost in front of people zerging alts to have every skill covered.

The most important reason for me is the continued development of this game for the better. I want a subscription. I want it to be cheaper than most streamline MMOs but I still want one. A couple dollars from thousands of players is still alot of money.

I personally support the 1 character per person enforced because then players have to literally live with there choices. Realistically this is impossible.

Although an indie game and in Alpha this game would only run me about 40 to start and 8 dollars a month which is half as cheap as the next sub. This is completely acceptable to me if your game is playable. Your free trial island is a good way to let people get there hands on the game and see if it's for them. Anyone wanting to play would surely pay a sub anyways.

In closing, of course everyone likes Free but I don't think the current model is sufficient to support this game alone. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Sting5]

[...]
If your going to bank on 1 time buys and a cash shop that isn't pay to win I would suggest a monthly fee. A monthly fee of 5 euros aswell as the first character being 20 euros and the 5 for another character slot.

This will still deter bots and put a cost in front of people zerging alts to have every skill covered.

[...]

In closing, of course everyone likes Free but I don't think the current model is sufficient to support this game alone. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I agree in some part - monthly fee is even better financing for developers than single charge for account. BUT monthly fees is going to surpass the once paid price in time, so You will start overpaying. AND - Though I would be glad paying 20 Euros for the game while I like the concept so far, I couldn't afford paying monthly fees whatever the price is. I would be forced to stop paying some months later, so why bother?

And about skillcap - It's known that in the game You will be able to change skills (decrease one type of skills, increase others), so You can do anything You want. Skillcap is not about forcing You to stay in one role for the rest of Your life. It's made to keep people from becoming ultra-humans and doing impossible - being masters of all arts - at the same time.


P.S. What's with all the whining about canadian dollar going down? Did You people know that there's such a great option in Your e-bank accounts like buying foreign currency? EVEN BANKS IN MY COUNTRY HAVE IT. I'm sure that Canada isn't less achieved. Buy 20 Euros today, in advance, (if You're planing to pay for the game) and forget inflations/deflations. Might there be a bigger/smaller amount to pay for this game - You will loose less anyway.
Unless you don't have bank acc. Then it's ass.

[P0stpwned]

Gotta say, I'd support a monthly fee too. Look at www.darkages.com - that game has been around forever and they still have a few hundred people paying subscription fees every month.

[Proximo]

Nobodies whining about Canadian dollars. If you have reading comprehension skills of any level the point of what I said is that the price is to low. 30-40-50 or any higher price isn't that bad if it's a 1 time buy. Anyone could make 30 dollars working at the nearest coffee shop or more in 3 hours. I don't really know how someone couldn't set aside 5 euros a month to pay a sub instead of eating out once during that month. If you can't afford 5 euros a month perhaps you shouldn't be paying for electricity and internet?

Playing video games isn't a service, it's a hobby.

[SaresITA89]

For developers: put in game the SURNAME please, so if someone is called Jon XYZ, the alt will be called Bam XYZ. This avoid pkers to back blue and spies to join enemy clans, all should be account based even if you make more characters.

Spying and enemy infiltration should not be limited in any form. It adds a whole new depth and immersion to the conquest and political metagame aswell as wars and sieges.

The Darkfall you can create a unique character, and spying is widely used.

warning: wall of text

As a vet player of Mortal Online, i do not agree with the reputation system of -50 = permanent killer, unless it is very difficult to get there.

When i played mortal online the worst people of the server were the "innocent" ones, they would always zerg protect the people sieging our property, there is a murdercount system similar to your reputation system.
once you hit 5 murdercounts you become a murderer, the problem was, i was a mounted archer and in a single fight where we were defending our own property, i shot 32 different people with arrows, i got 32 murdercounts and it takes 8h ingame to burn a single murdercount.

if another person was killed while "burning" murdercounts your timer would reset to 8h, and you would receive another murdercount

i tried my hardest to not be a murderer in that game, but eventually i was forced to be one protecting my own property.

if i am forced into the same thing in LIF then i will be quiting, i cannot afford to make a new char every time someone attacks my property, you need to have a clear system in place to make sure we can defend ourselves without taking on murdercounts, perhaps have a territory, where if somebody enters your territory you can kill them without consequence, if you can do this, i will be happy to pay whatever cost you put on the chars.

i have quit MO because of how much safety the "innocent" people have, i would like a system where your reputation drops if you kill a murderer or a innocent, perhaps a lower reputation drop on killing a murderer, the people of MO would attack a murderer on sight, knowing they can run to safety or call in more people knowing you cannot run to safety.

TL;DR the reputation system could be griefed, forcing people to buy new people, or quit the game

soon released an article which explains the "trespassing."

the article is written in Italian, so I write here in English what bpbol has wrote in PM:

1) Trespasser! - you can target someone on a land, where he has no passing rights (your personal lands, your friends personal lands and so on). Thus a marked person will be a trespasser and become a criminal = can be attacked.
2) Trespassers! - Everyone in a 20m radius will be marked as a trespasser (ofc if they has no passing rights here).

if your friends are using this skill, you can kill without worrying about alignment, as you'll see all the gray people.

Alignment:
http://lifeisfeudal.gamepedia.com/Alignment

[Assanet]

Well, in general, yes, for many it will be no problem .. But only one condition: them of this game is addictive/enjoy and they will want to exit to the main land.
And for this purpose it is necessary to taste game

[trashman]

I would strongly suggest a monthly fee to maintain servers and development. If you are afraid it will deter players from staying only make it 5eu a month. Nearly everyone can afford such a low rate.

[Best4Gamers]

i think this game shuld be p2p
like all other sandbox rpg , with mounth fee of 9-12 $
and 3-4 char slot per account
you can have multiple account , with discount of 25% ...

[Akaedis]

In my opinion, this price needs to be raised to 15$, 10 Euro? Kinda cheap tbh...

[Virdill]

I hope in p2p... But if you are sure you can get enough profit with B2P, and that's what you want that's ok, I would also have preferred a single character for account (I think the price should be 20 € for slot)

[Arthua]

Monthly fees are a no.

Sure most 18+ players (younger players may not have access to cc and bank accs) are able and can afford 5$/mo - 10$/mo.

But honestly there are many people who dont want to pay a monthly fee for a video game. Especailly when there are many free or b2p titles out there (console games, minecraft, RUST!!, DayZ, other upcoming free or b2p sandbox mmos, etc).

It is really a turn off. Take Mortal Online for example. Seems like a wonderful game, but I never will try it because it's pay to pay. Whats the point? Even if I do pay for it, a few months I may quit.

For p2p games you cant return to them unless you reopen a sub. It's just seems like a ripoff, when many games are cheaper.

Heck its just a game! there's Netflix, Youtube, real life, real life job, school. So many other expenses and priorities.

[Demonic]

In my opinion, this price needs to be raised to 15$, 10 Euro? Kinda cheap tbh...

15$ = 10€ mate

[finalreview]

5-15US$ for "premium" just make w/e the base experience rate you want as "125%" and make the normal experience rate 75% of normal but call it 100%. Kids don't have to pay and don't miss out on much, while adults can support the development / maintenance and get a small perk. Or create any number of cash shop perks for small prices that work well together so the average player will spend between 5-15$US per month. Nothing that is pay to win, just timer savers or cosmetic.

1 Character 1 Account 0 Alts

[Dailato]

Some really nice discussion going on in here, good stuff.

To respond briefly on why I think single-account is perfectly viable, even if not 100% enforceable:
The vast majority of people will not want to risk getting both (or even more) of their accounts banned for the sake of an Alt account.
Only those truly confident in their ability to evade detection will then have multiple accounts, and they would have found a way around whatever system you use anyway.

Having your alignment tied to your account is a viable alternative, but I don't like the "last names" solution. First off it requires you to give all your characters the same last name, which I may just not want to do for RP reasons. Secondly people will not easily remember if they were brutally murdered by John ililillilililili or John illliililliili (which may or may not both show up as barcodes in the game).

Obviously that's a bit of an extreme example, but it will be a nuisance none-theless, I'd prefer just having a PK-character on your account condemned all your characters to the same reputation without people having to remember your surname.

As for subscription model: as a few people pointed out, subscription model is huge wall for some (alot) of people to climb. So there should be the option to just pay once and have the game.

However, as also mentioned, this may not be very sustainable business model. And 5$ a month is not that much for most people. So if I may propose a solution:

Subscription is optional, benefits of subscription are: Monthly in-game store allowance, early access to upcoming stuff (test server), maybe a title of some kind, special discount or such for long-time subscribers on some in-game store items (which changes once in a while).

Just a few ideas here which will completely avoid P2W, but still give people who want to support game with subscription incentive to do so.

It can be a pain to setup multiple tier business model like this, administration-wise, but is well worth it for long-term income I feel.

Keep up the discussion, we want to help the developers make the best decision for LiF's future.

Yours truly -The Pope

[Salival2020]

I don't mind the fee for transferring characters, But I do not think it will prevent players from having multiple characters and using some or just one for EViL!

I joined this forums 3 years ago..lol 1st post a little late...just maybe.

[Salival2020]

5-15US$ for "premium" just make w/e the base experience rate you want as "125%" and make the normal experience rate 75% of normal but call it 100%. Kids don't have to pay and don't miss out on much, while adults can support the development / maintenance and get a small perk. Or create any number of cash shop perks for small prices that work well together so the average player will spend between 5-15$US per month. Nothing that is pay to win, just timer savers or cosmetic.

1 Character 1 Account 0 Alts

I do not like that idea of premium accounts getting greater xp then it just becomes similar to a pay to win or flourish scheme.

Which I think would hurt the game, anything premium has to offer should be cosmetic or something thats will not affect the landscape of the game by much.

[Demonic]

My idea.

B2P
20€ for 1st ticket, 5 - 10€ for next tickets.

P2P

5€/month
-> 1st ticket
-> every month you receive fixed amount of some virtual currency (VC). You can than spend this VC in online store for next tickets or other stuff.

You can switch your payment model every month, but if you are playing with subscription for less then 4 months, you would have to even up the money to 20€.

You can of course use the online store for real money payments regardless of the type of payment you used.

[Argentfan]

I don't think it's a bad idea and the price isn't unreasonable if the game really is good. But for me it's a fairly big chunk of change for that first character. Maybe adjust the prices to be more like 15 Euros for the first and still 10 for the second. That way the initial purchase is less jarring, but alternate characters still have to be taken seriously.