Life is Feudal Official Forum

[Arrakis]

Regarding arrows damage - It's mostly fixed and bodkin arrows won't be so powerful anymore

As for general topic of archers being OP - Did you try using war cries against them? You can lower enemy aim and make running players stumble. Properly used war cries combined with proper armor should provide upper hand over such 'deadly, naked archers'

[Kael]

it doesnt have much to do with "superhero" Knights.

Just a normal knight, with a plate armour is avaiable to kill 5+ Peasants with Spears or Forks.

Because no most of the Weapons cant penetrate the armour perfectly. And if you got into melee range to a normal peasant with your longsword / bihänder, the peasant is instantly dead.

why do you think knights where so powerful over 500 years?

There are the tanks of medieval times - and if you are not well experienced you will not even avaiable to kill an armored knight.

[Azzerhoden]

it doesnt have much to do with "superhero" Knights.

Just a normal knight, with a plate armour is avaiable to kill 5+ Peasants with Spears or Forks.

5 peasants against a knight would kill the knight in most fights.

They would surround the knight to where the knight could not keep track of them, and at the first opportunity they would use their pitchforks to trip the knight up. Once on the ground they would pile on and stab him through the eye slit with daggers.

[Kael]

as a knight, when i get surrounded by 5 peasants, i go straight to the nearest peasant, kill him, change and charge the next. Also i got a full plate Armor, if you come near me , i can punch you with my metal-hands and can break your face with one hit. Even i can use Ellbows or other stuff if you come to near.

5 peasants against 1 knight is no real problem for a knight.

only experienced fighters could kill a battle-experienced knight (which mostly, all knights have battle experience) - so they also know how to be wild.

dont be so naiv that a knight can be killed by 5 peasants. you need more than 5 peasants to kill a knight.


Also a normal peasant dont want to die. So in a fight against 1 knight, 1-2 peasants on minimum dies. So would you like to die like this?



an another example:


its just a model, but how you wil ldefeat him as peasant?
Dagger in their Neck? -> armored
Dagger insode their arms? lol - if you get near a fully armored knight they break your head with their own head.

Also how you get a knight with a pitchfork on the ground? Pitchfork is a nice, but very weak weapon against a knight because the metal which is used for the pitchfork is normally not good, and also the "stab" ability of a pitchfork is very low, mostly she couldnt even pierce.

A knight weight about 100-120kg with their armour in complete (80kg for the person + 25-30 for the armor)


Maybe you can stab him in his ass. But if the knight dont falls on the ground, all of the 5 peasants die when they not run.

Thinking that 5 peasants can easily kill a knight is bullshit.
You have to be a vet to kill a knight who is fully armored and also enough manpower who know how to beat the knight.


Even the mongols avoid the direct fight with a knight because they know that they would loose

[Jairone]

Regarding arrows damage - It's mostly fixed and bodkin arrows won't be so powerful anymore

As for general topic of archers being OP - Did you try using war cries against them? You can lower enemy aim and make running players stumble. Properly used war cries combined with proper armor should provide upper hand over such 'deadly, naked archers'

The stumble is nice, but given how much slower we are in armor we have to either have a rotation on war cries or just forget about ever catching up. The slowing effect really needs consideration for a change to a hard stam drain or something else.

The nerf to bodkins will be very helpful, but even with a simple bow and arrow setup you can just kite through war cries. You stumble, get settled, and run again with no concern of being caught unless the person dequips with the flee button and comes back naked except for their melee weapon.

Any archer who doesn't run by the time you are within range to make use of the stumble is just being foolish.


As for the peasants thing... knights are vulnerable if tripped, but most were not stupid. They knew this, and would do everything possible to avoid being surrounded and tripped. Additionally, having worn armor before, I can verify that you can take a little hop to avoid such tripping. That being said, if tripped they were dead. Pull on some armor, expose a spot, and done.

[Kael]

https://youtu.be/vi757-7XD94?t=130

when someone says that an armor is too heavy to move fast...

and these guys are professionel fighters. both of them. normally a peasent isnt a vet. And only one with veeeery much experience could kill a knight like this.

[Styxwash]

dont be so naiv that a knight can be killed by 5 peasants. you need more than 5 peasants to kill a knight.

Sure, keep dreaming, maybe in a movie. Or if the 5 peasants were already dying of hunger, using sickles and hammers and the knight was one of the most elite, wearing super expensive armor.

Fighting trained foot soldiers with spears or pike weapons is whole different thing though, which was your original example, and a lone knight would be torn to shreds in no time by 5 opponents like that.

Again, your not fighting peasants in this game, unless your always fighting newbie players with tools of course? Is that your thing?

The model you linked may be heavily armored, but situational awareness in something like that would be very low, meaning that 5 people could easily surround and out maneuver him.

If these people had pole weapons, they could easily trip him up and with armor covering everywhere as you describe, he would go down easily.
Isn't he going down at first? Just tire him out - only the most enduring warriors could keep up constant active fighting in such heavy armor for more than a few minutes, without becoming winded and vulnerable.

[Azzerhoden]

as a knight, when i get surrounded by 5 peasants, i go straight to the nearest peasant, kill him, change and charge the next.

You are confusing game play with real life. At least I hope you are...

...

its just a model, but how you wil ldefeat him as peasant?
Dagger in their Neck? -> armored
Dagger insode their arms? lol - if you get near a fully armored knight they break your head with their own head.

As you said, it is just a model. Not real.

[Toren]

Regarding arrows damage - It's mostly fixed and bodkin arrows won't be so powerful anymore

As for general topic of archers being OP - Did you try using war cries against them? You can lower enemy aim and make running players stumble. Properly used war cries combined with proper armor should provide upper hand over such 'deadly, naked archers'

Like Jairone said, the only way to actually catch a naked archer with war cries is to be fairly light, otherwise your never going to get the swing off on them. Even then, with how much arrows weigh, if a naked archer sees you coming up on them, you'll never be able to catch them because they can easily stay out of coward/you are mine range. Lancing is the other method, but I've personally found that naked archers are deadlier to lancers than pikemen, as its easier for them to kite around the horse and get it tripped up.

[Hanz_knife]

Regarding arrows damage - It's mostly fixed and bodkin arrows won't be so powerful anymore

glad to hear if it means that bodking dmg will be reduced little bit at some point...

As for general topic of archers being OP - Did you try using war cries against them? You can lower enemy aim and make running players stumble. Properly used war cries combined with proper armor should provide upper hand over such 'deadly, naked archers'

yeah, tried and it can help little bit sometimes. But also dont forget you need skill for that and what if you want to use polearms or 1h swords with shields against them? What about other lines when there is 600skillcap? Only way to beat them is ew.? light armored berserker with warcries? little bit strange regarding plate armors skill line dont you think? And if you say wear fullplate, i can just say you cant never catch and kill good archer even with warcries....

[Arrakis]

Have (for instance) a team consisting of berserkers using warcries that will serve as support to your armored archers. Tactics and coordination are everything. Make the best of your team abilities to put your enemy at disadvantage. And remember that especially when you will take part in massive battles in the mmo.

[Stormsblade]

Regarding arrows damage - It's mostly fixed and bodkin arrows won't be so powerful anymore

As for general topic of archers being OP - Did you try using war cries against them? You can lower enemy aim and make running players stumble. Properly used war cries combined with proper armor should provide upper hand over such 'deadly, naked archers'

Unfortunately, war cries (at least as of two months ago) made you stumble if you held your ground too.

If you held your ground as a melee you generally just gave up a bunch of free hits, and it rendered the best strategy to try and run from or dodge strikes for the duration of the debuff. Archers are usually better equipped to do this as they are lighter, and are typically able to kite the heavier (armored) 2handers.

I think that's the opposite of how you guys wanted that skill to work


The real meta to beat skilled archers is to:

(1) be lightly armored enough as a melee that you can run them down, and hope they don't drop you with two good shots off before your stuck to them in melee.

(2) Be a better archer.

Horses are iffy at best - A good horseman can certainly threaten an archer on the open field, but give an archer a tree or any other kind of obstacle, and they can terrain the horse with impunity.

Melee *and* horse both pushing an archer will do the job pretty well though, arguably however a second archer can peel for the first one.

I agree it's not absolutely without counter, and there are at least questions about how this will scale to big mmo fights. That said, I would suggest it's not as easily counterable as you insist. Reduced Bodkin damage should go a long way to helping out here.

[Toren]

Regarding arrows damage - It's mostly fixed and bodkin arrows won't be so powerful anymore

As for general topic of archers being OP - Did you try using war cries against them? You can lower enemy aim and make running players stumble. Properly used war cries combined with proper armor should provide upper hand over such 'deadly, naked archers'

Unfortunately, war cries (at least as of two months ago) made you stumble if you held your ground too.

If you held your ground as a melee you generally just gave up a bunch of free hits, and it rendered the best strategy to try and run from or dodge strikes for the duration of the debuff. Archers are usually better equipped to do this as they are lighter, and are typically able to kite the heavier (armored) 2handers.

I think that's the opposite of how you guys wanted that skill to work


The real meta to beat skilled archers is to:

(1) be lightly armored enough as a melee that you can run them down, and hope they don't drop you with two good shots off before your stuck to them in melee.

(2) Be a better archer.

Horses are iffy at best - A good horseman can certainly threaten an archer on the open field, but give an archer a tree or any other kind of obstacle, and they can terrain the horse with impunity.

Melee *and* horse both pushing an archer will do the job pretty well though, arguably however a second archer can peel for the first one.

I agree it's not absolutely without counter, and there are at least questions about how this will scale to big mmo fights. That said, I would suggest it's not as easily counterable as you insist. Reduced Bodkin damage should go a long way to helping out here.

Exactly. Naked is currently the only way for a berserker to get close enough to archers to actually make shouts worth it. As of a week ago or so, I stumbled someone in combat with coward, so it seems its still working in reverse. I've actually escaped a coward shout as a naked archer just due to the fact that the armored knight chasing me wasn't fast enough to catch me even with the stumble. I suggested awhile back that it should be buffed against people fleeing, while not punish those who stand their ground to actually give people a reason to stand and fight. As far bodkin nerf goes, that might move people to try out melee, but will more likely just switch archers over to dull arrows as the new hit and run go to. I would like to know how crossbows stand, but as of now no one actually uses them for their practicality.

Well except for one group I saw that would hop on a horse, run, shoot the crossbow and get back on their horse, rinse and repeat. I suppose that time it was our fault for not having lancers to run them off though.

[Kael]

its just a model, but how you wil ldefeat him as peasant?
Dagger in their Neck? -> armored
Dagger insode their arms? lol - if you get near a fully armored knight they break your head with their own head.

As you said, it is just a model. Not real.[/quote]

the model is based on real armoury of a knight.

trollin on a very low level mate

[Azzerhoden]

its just a model, but how you wil ldefeat him as peasant?
Dagger in their Neck? -> armored
Dagger insode their arms? lol - if you get near a fully armored knight they break your head with their own head.

As you said, it is just a model. Not real.

the model is based on real armoury of a knight.

trollin on a very low level mate

Not trolling at all. Just pointing out that you said it was a model but provided no additional details as to its source. So until you do it doesn't have any real value to your point about how much protection it provides.

Frankly, personal positioning is more key to any fight then armor or hand weapons. Every fighting tradition teaches this. Yet no game in today's world will be able to capture this level of detail.

So until LIF is able to calculate the firmness of the ground cover you are standing as part of the strength of your attack, or the moisture content of your bow string from using it in inclement weather to the bows energy transfer rate, or even the actual hardness value of your plate armor (which ultimately decides on penetration), comparing LIF game mechanics to the real world is utterly pointless.

The only topic that does matter is the game balance across the different combat trees. Successful games employ a rock-paper-scissors-lizard-spock balance in combat. Those that don't, don't.

[Jairone]

Have (for instance) a team consisting of berserkers using warcries that will serve as support to your armored archers. Tactics and coordination are everything. Make the best of your team abilities to put your enemy at disadvantage. And remember that especially when you will take part in massive battles in the mmo.

Yes, tactics should trump all. However, having heavy armor at such an extreme disadvantage and fairly low protection comparatively.... makes it pointless.

Without some changes to how the weight factor works (like my suggestion for hard stam) and/or making heavier armors scale much better compared to lighter armors nobody is going to use them.

Which is why so many of us are so vocal about this. We want something where heavier armors do have a use, including being part of some tactics. They don't need to be the end all of the game. They need to have a place in the game. Currently they just don't.

[Rodmar]

https://youtu.be/fa8sI3IXAkI?t=165

This video shows whats the biggest problem with archers. Naked guy with a bearded axe has trouble catching up to Heavy Scale archer. And all that is because you can go out of warstance instantly whenever you want and run away without any penalties. Sheathing animation alongside with other suggestions about this issue should help.

Because I don't think developers want random encounters to look like this

[Arrakis]

https://youtu.be/fa8sI3IXAkI?t=165

This video shows whats the biggest problem with archers. Naked guy with a bearded axe has trouble catching up to Heavy Scale archer. And all that is because you can go out of warstance instantly whenever you want and run away without any penalties.

This will be fixed. No worries

[Ishamael]

You have no idea how OP archery can be

I will post the bug to the tracker if nobody finds it in the closed mmo alpha

[Toren]

https://youtu.be/fa8sI3IXAkI?t=165

This video shows whats the biggest problem with archers. Naked guy with a bearded axe has trouble catching up to Heavy Scale archer. And all that is because you can go out of warstance instantly whenever you want and run away without any penalties. Sheathing animation alongside with other suggestions about this issue should help.

Because I don't think developers want random encounters to look like this

Also notice the tap firing and how quickly he lines up his shots. With practice you can actually fire off about 5 arrows 3 seconds at close range with tap firing.

[Sleep]

There are some ideas on how to fix archers.

[Hawkyr]

The odds of a knight dying in combat was extremely low in general. They were literally walking tanks or turtles.

1. Their armor was neigh invincible. Save a fluke shot at a weak point between the plates, and even then it was unlikely for that to kill them.
2. they were worth a TON of money if ransomed. They would be more likely to be captured than killed.

Their armor was not unreasonably heavy as some people might think. The limiting factor was stamina. None of the gear was heavy, but fighting for prolonged duration was extremely tiring (look at boxers, they don't even wear armor and they are worn out in a few rounds)

Archers vs Knights

Arrows did literally nothing directly to a knight except act as a irritant. Not even a long bow with bodkins could penetrate the plate. Save an act of god, an arrow would not stab a knight. Arrows could not generate enough energy to penetrate plate. period. Probably felt not all unlike a paintball with their full armor.

Archers served basically 1 purpose in battle against knights. To kill their horses when they charge. The most damage they could do, as they would near mortally wound a knight making him fall off his dead horse at a gallop. This was one of the rare times a knight was vulnerable aka on their back.


Knights vs Knights

Death was very unlikely as they were probably friends of friends, or a similar knights order and were just fighting for their appointed lord in a battle over a claim.

Essentially whack at each other until one suffered a concussed blow or was knocked off their feet and the other either finished them off or captured them for their armor/ransom. Off chance they could land a fluke blow in a weak spot, but highly unlikely.

Also stand in grotesque positions sucking in air because they were tired and heavily draining combat.

Knights vs Peasant Levies/Mercenaries

1 vs 5 Peasant levies

On paper, it would not bode exactly well for the knight. basically a peasant or 2 would have to sacrifice themselves to knock over the knight will a polearm or a grapple. Once the knight was flipped over they would be helpless, just like a flipped turtle. The peasants still alive would rejoice as they would be able to ransom him back for a fortune. If the grapple or polearm failed to knock the knight over, then basically 2ish peasants would be dismembered and the rest would run. The knight would most likely be unable chase as he would risk slipping in metal greaves.

Reality of it was that peasants rarely got the better of any proper trained knights as

1 knights were trained and acted in a unit
2 Levies were not well trained.


5 knights vs 25 peasant levies

Same ratio, but highly in favor of the knights. Essentially people died the most during 3 times of a battle. The initial clash, the retreat, and after the battle from wounds. The 5 knights should be able to work to together to keep each other upright(most important part) and spacing would not work in favor of the peasants. 5-6 peasants would easily die in the initial clash, and another 5-6 when they turned tail. Even if they used polearms, a group of knights with a morning star or 2hander or spear would easily take them out.

Mercenaries tended to be the bane of knights. Kind of the reason why mercenaries today still carry a bad connotation, because they excelled at killing knights. Essentially far better trained free levies that were great with a halberd or piercing spear types of weapons. Pin the knight and knock them down, and either kill or ransom them. They were also very seasoned and fought hella hard, because a knight would not show them the same mercy they would show other knights.

Largely, I would say the actual killing seems to be overestimated in actual medieval combat. There are records of battles with 500+ knights and only 3-10 ten died.

[Sleep]

Arrows did literally nothing directly to a knight except act as a irritant.

Depends on distance, armor quality (was it steel or iron), angle at which the arrow hits, draw weight, etc.

Once the knight was flipped over they would be helpless, just like a flipped turtle.

Wrong. They wouldn't be more helpless than any other person flipped over. As you said yourself,

Their armor was not unreasonably heavy as some people might think.

[Hawkyr]

Arrows did literally nothing directly to a knight except act as a irritant.

Depends on distance, armor quality (was it steel or iron), angle at which the arrow hits, draw weight, etc.

Once the knight was flipped over they would be helpless, just like a flipped turtle.

Wrong. They wouldn't be more helpless than any other person flipped over. As you said yourself,

Their armor was not unreasonably heavy as some people might think.

A highly cranked crossbow would maybe have enough draw weight to generate enough force to mildly penetrate a lighter plate armor and even then your dealing with a thick layer of mail and padding which it would still not go through. Not to mention you would have to hit it at the right angle of landing it dead on, otherwise it would glance.


wrong? that was basically the only way knights died outside of a charge/falling off their horse. It doesn't matter if they slightly more or less helpless than others on their feet. Getting up takes time even without armor. Its still extra weight and its encumbering even if mildly. Thats when they were vulnerable and when people would either disable them or slip a dagger through their helmet.

My suggestion would be to make plate armor better and hella more expensive. Fielding knights was super expensive and new armor was generally not made for knights, it was passed down or captured from other knights. It was very expensive and rare on the battlefield.

Then again its a game and i'll play it anyway.