Life is Feudal Official Forum

[Gastenns]

Storm how long ago was your conversation with Bobik? it appears there is newer information on the website that says they have moved away from the idea of Realm claims and Town claims. I know the devs are busy but would be great if they could tell us what to expect in the MMO so we could all prepare. As for what Uba said yea, major useless dumpfest. Its great to talk about important issues but flaming at devs and other players seems pretty useless.

I'm curious if they will go back to Realm claims and Town claims or if that idea is just gone.
-Also I'm curious on how walls will behave in a guild claim as it is reduced in instanced battles. Will it reduce in level but remain the same size as if it was whatever it was before.
-Also if there is enough of a gap (i.e. 1 -2 days) will you be able to upgrade the monument again after an instanced attack occurs?

[Stormsblade]

April 27th.

By website, do you mean the wiki?
Because I am the one that made the edit there.


http://puu.sh/oXxoO/a54e4aa307.png

[Gastenns]

yes it was the wiki website, thanks for keeping the Wiki updated, I know Uba has worked extensively to update much of the crafting, glad to see we have an active community working to keep the information up to date for the rest of us. Still would like to know more about how claims work, how permissions work, and what to expect in the Guild/kingdom system.

[Azzerhoden]

lol, nothing of relevance was linked and did not address my point about authority deleting walls or what will be essentially waste space.

If safety is dependent on 24/7 vigilance is required(even just prolonged vigilance), I'm will certainly never install. I don't have the time to bother creating/joining a global guild to field players in all timezones. I have a life/job and I rather the action to actually be contained to a reasonable time and not wee hours. Played enough games like that to know that even if they are kinda fun its not worth bothering.

1. Its not fun even when you dominate
2. It leads to relatively boring fights if not forced to fight head to head.

Honestly mate you need to make up your mind about zerg, no zerg. Because you said no zerg, yet your supporting policy that would clearly favor zerg.

An individual will almost certainly fail at protecting a city. If you want to setup a personal claim, then that would be protected until another guild came along and established a claim that overtook your personal claim. That's the way the game should be played, and the FAQ from two years ago indicated as much. You will also be alble to live in relative safety within the main city. If you want to go out and live in the wilderness though, you better be prepared to defend yourself.

I don't understand how you could be so confused about what I've said about zerg guilds. A zerg guild is one that relies on numbers to dominate in combat. It leads to massive lag and crashed servers. Large guilds are not the same as a zerg guild.

A large guild can and should protect all the citizens of its domain. That's not zerging, that's defending your mates. Instanced fighting with limited numbers for battles to control a city allows for smaller guilds to compate against large guilds by knocking them down from time to time. That's a good thing, both within a game and in the larger real world.

The final battle for the city should involve everyone, as the survival of the city is at stake. Again, that's the way it should be. Soldiers fighting in the battles, and when the final battle is set all citizens get involved in the defense of the city.

I've participated in numerous battles where hundreds (and in a few cases, thousands) of players have been involved. What Bobik and team are trying is something new, and as a gamer, I like playing games that try different things. For all of these reasons I am in favor of the instanced battles and all out sieges.

Finally, I think you formed your opinion based on emotion and are now reaching for arguments to support that decision. Feel free to correct me with supported arguments.

[Unbeaten]

lol, nothing of relevance was linked and did not address my point about authority deleting walls or what will be essentially waste space.

If safety is dependent on 24/7 vigilance is required(even just prolonged vigilance), I'm will certainly never install. I don't have the time to bother creating/joining a global guild to field players in all timezones. I have a life/job and I rather the action to actually be contained to a reasonable time and not wee hours. Played enough games like that to know that even if they are kinda fun its not worth bothering.

1. Its not fun even when you dominate
2. It leads to relatively boring fights if not forced to fight head to head.

Honestly mate you need to make up your mind about zerg, no zerg. Because you said no zerg, yet your supporting policy that would clearly favor zerg.

An individual will almost certainly fail at protecting a city. If you want to setup a personal claim, then that would be protected until another guild came along and established a claim that overtook your personal claim. That's the way the game should be played, and the FAQ from two years ago indicated as much. You will also be alble to live in relative safety within the main city. If you want to go out and live in the wilderness though, you better be prepared to defend yourself.

I don't understand how you could be so confused about what I've said about zerg guilds. A zerg guild is one that relies on numbers to dominate in combat. It leads to massive lag and crashed servers. Large guilds are not the same as a zerg guild.

A large guild can and should protect all the citizens of its domain. That's not zerging, that's defending your mates. Instanced fighting with limited numbers for battles to control a city allows for smaller guilds to compate against large guilds by knocking them down from time to time. That's a good thing, both within a game and in the larger real world.

The final battle for the city should involve everyone, as the survival of the city is at stake. Again, that's the way it should be. Soldiers fighting in the battles, and when the final battle is set all citizens get involved in the defense of the city.

I've participated in numerous battles where hundreds (and in a few cases, thousands) of players have been involved. What Bobik and team are trying is something new, and as a gamer, I like playing games that try different things. For all of these reasons I am in favor of the instanced battles and all out sieges.

Finally, I think you formed your opinion based on emotion and are now reaching for arguments to support that decision. Feel free to correct me with supported arguments.

The more I read about this the more I think how long this process would take?

Do we all instantly teleport magically to the field of battle once per day and siege on the forth day? Otherwise are we still in res sick when the siege comes? Do we have time to re-equip maybe even re-craft the gear lost? Seems really time consuming either way you look at it.

Shadowbane had a great siege system, drop a siege stone per say and they have three days to accept a time as the defender. You could have a ally counter siege the attacker and see if they pick a time first. You had the use of using the tactics of an attacker leaving his city undefended so the simplicity of a stone and time agreement to challenge another city had more complicated measures and tactics. You would also have to walk to the city to siege it and setup your siege so many field battles ensued. You would have to siege down the siege stone or they siege down your monument to end the siege. This was simple and would not be so time consuming as the other variation sounds painfully long.

[Hawkyr]

I don't understand how you could be so confused about what I've said about zerg guilds. A zerg guild is one that relies on numbers to dominate in combat. It leads to massive lag and crashed servers. Large guilds are not the same as a zerg guild.

Finally, I think you formed your opinion based on emotion and are now reaching for arguments to support that decision. Feel free to correct me with supported arguments.

I'm fine with instanced and full-out sieges. All good, I was pointing out what seemed like poor design and cheap tactics abusing that poor design. Also the limiting number of options but that's not worth talking about.

Regardless, the fact remains that the only real safety is in actively patrolling/protecting your claimed lands.

^ that is my issue with you and your so-called anti-zerg "stance". That implies time consuming surveillance. That supports zerging/harassing people during unpopular playing times. A large Global guild could field waves of people at all times to attack your claim. If your friends are all of the same timezone, well your pretty much out of luck and can expect to log into your claim having been leveled to the ground. Because sure you can field 30 people to match their 30 people at 6pm, but what about 4 am when they send another 30 people? or 9 am when they send another 30? Can you watch your walls then when you only have 2-4 people online then?

What happens when they bog you down in fighting everyday, all day, all the time?

Your claim should not be vulnerable all the time just because its under war. It should be limited to a window of 2, maybe 3 hours. Off-time raiding and griefing is not fun nor worth playing with.

Isn't the system too favored to the attacker in the siege? how long do you have to endure? until their done? until they have no gear left? Wouldn't a siege battle be a forgone conclusion once its begun then? as they'll just keep fielding people until you've given up or got tired and had to log?


There is no emotion or reaching here. These are logical conclusions based on what information is available and your arguments.

[Unbeaten]

I don't understand how you could be so confused about what I've said about zerg guilds. A zerg guild is one that relies on numbers to dominate in combat. It leads to massive lag and crashed servers. Large guilds are not the same as a zerg guild.

Finally, I think you formed your opinion based on emotion and are now reaching for arguments to support that decision. Feel free to correct me with supported arguments.

I'm fine with instanced and full-out sieges. All good, I was pointing out what seemed like poor design and cheap tactics abusing that poor design. Also the limiting number of options but that's not worth talking about.

Regardless, the fact remains that the only real safety is in actively patrolling/protecting your claimed lands.

^ that is my issue with you and your so-called anti-zerg "stance". That implies time consuming surveillance. That supports zerging/harassing people during unpopular playing times. A large Global guild could field waves of people at all times to attack your claim. If your friends are all of the same timezone, well your pretty much out of luck and can expect to log into your claim having been leveled to the ground. Because sure you can field 30 people to match their 30 people at 6pm, but what about 4 am when they send another 30 people? or 9 am when they send another 30? Can you watch your walls then when you only have 2-4 people online then?

What happens when they bog you down in fighting everyday, all day, all the time?

Your claim should not be vulnerable all the time just because its under war. It should be limited to a window of 2, maybe 3 hours. Off-time raiding and griefing is not fun nor worth playing with.

Isn't the system too favored to the attacker in the siege? how long do you have to endure? until their done? until they have no gear left? Wouldn't a siege battle be a forgone conclusion once its begun then? as they'll just keep fielding people until you've given up or got tired and had to log?


There is no emotion or reaching here. These are logical conclusions based on what information is available and your arguments.

I agree completely with the 2-3 hours part. As I mentioned above a siege stone of some sort where you have two days to pick a time ensures you can only be sieged every two-three days in succession. These stones or methods to ensue a siege should also not be cheap for the attacker.

The waves of attackers makes me fear multi-nation guilds. But as this is a gaming environment not where we live 24/7 defenders should have the right to pick their populace prime time.

[Unbeaten]

A large guild can and should protect all the citizens of its domain. That's not zerging, that's defending your mates. Instanced fighting with limited numbers for battles to control a city allows for smaller guilds to compate against large guilds by knocking them down from time to time. That's a good thing, both within a game and in the larger real world.

You have certainly never lead a guild and been forced to choose your top players over a mass of people wanting to be involved. This system will tear apart any guild with 101 PvP Players. You did not pick me, well me and the core friends I play with will find somewhere I can play. This could help keep the zergs down too.

Still believe whole heartedly instances do not belong in a open world game, and do so is a bait and switch technique. Damn website quotes "SEAMLESS WORLD" needs to add w/ instance. Otherwise people would be able to join you in this fight sounds like seams are to exist somewhere.

I still feel alliances are of less use too. But we will find a way, the best would be to attack their empty city and make them divide forces. Interested in how this all evolves. None of the ideas are bad, and we all have different opinions, but overall sounds like it will be at the least fun.

My last note of most importance is this. So say the instanced battles happen and you win all three or lose to have then every troll guild on the server show to help siege you, mostly out of boredom. Now wont you wish they showed themselves at the field battles so you had some idea the people who would be showing up to fight you? I know it will feel pretty unrealistic and just limited to feel like you know whats coming based on the battles to be completely wrong. I am still curious how long these sieges are suppose to take, from the first instanced battle to the siege.

[Airco]

my questioning is rather the timedifrences.
guilds whit large players worldwide should be ok bhut smaller guilds wil be easely wipedout if they do not have people awak at sertain times.
even a big guild could end up in this issue.
imagen haveing a huge EU player based guild/kingdom and some mediocore us kingdom bothers to decrease your claim for what would be 3-4h (3-4am) for eu players wich is depending on where they live in usa... 20-22h (8-10pm)?
the eu kingdom wont have much players while the usa guild could easely have its entire army ready to roll and go for it.

i discoverd this issue on asherons call specialy on sunday, while i (eu) was setteling down the us players where getting online to start the fun and when alot of players where on it was bedtime for so i had to bail and this happend alot.
when my char grew it was the other way arround, i was starting up fun stuf and some early us birds where rushing to hop in and dureing the course of the questings others came on and hoped in on other quests slightly sad they already missed some others.

truely wondering how this wil turn out on lif

[Azzerhoden]

If I recall correctly, there is supposed to be a limited window of vulnerability for battles and sieges, chosen by the defender. There will likely be a limited number of battles a day (which is speculation). Likewise, there has been no word if the attacker has to be physically near the defender during the instance battle, or if they can all be living at home until the time has arrived.

That has absolutely nothing to do with having people camp you city 24x7 just to harass the inhabitants of the city. There are no zapp towers or 'hired guards' to protect those who just want to login and craft in a cocoon of safety. There will be no 'safe zone' for players to spawn into, and no running to the GM is you are getting spawned camped.

They will only be protection by the other members of the guild, or Kingdom.

[Unbeaten]

If I recall correctly, there is supposed to be a limited window of vulnerability for battles and sieges, chosen by the defender. There will likely be a limited number of battles a day (which is speculation). Likewise, there has been no word if the attacker has to be physically near the defender during the instance battle, or if they can all be living at home until the time has arrived.

That has absolutely nothing to do with having people camp you city 24x7 just to harass the inhabitants of the city. There are no zapp towers or 'hired guards' to protect those who just want to login and craft in a cocoon of safety. There will be no 'safe zone' for players to spawn into, and no running to the GM is you are getting spawned camped.

They will only be protection by the other members of the guild, or Kingdom.

Yeah as I thought, and were all speculating the same parts. Thanks for the info. I hope they have to be near them to begin a battle instanced or not, I just truly get off on scouting and cutting off enemy reinforcements

[Sharana]

That has absolutely nothing to do with having people camp you city 24x7 just to harass the inhabitants of the city. There are no zapp towers or 'hired guards' to protect those who just want to login and craft in a cocoon of safety.

Do you honestly think such kind of griefing will be common once the MMO is released (no more wipes)?

[Ishamael]

I'm really interested to see how the alignment system factors in. I have guys in our guild who probably will not pvp off-claim in the MMO because they will lose their crafting skills.

I have a feeling that very few people will go red in the MMO.

I'm very interested in testing stuff related to this like skill gain rates and how fast your alignment drops as a bandit. I've dropped down to below -170 within 5 minutes of logging in to help the guild I'm in.

I know that when you are close to -2000 alignment, you basically create a new character every time you die. The saving grace here is that you don't have to re-stat. You can pvp quite well with 90 skills, so I'm banking on 5x food multiplier to get back up to 90 relatively fast.

We'll see how all this actually works in the MMO though.

[Sharana]

I'm really interested to see how the alignment system factors in. I have guys in our guild who probably will not pvp off-claim in the MMO because they will lose their crafting skills.

I have a feeling that very few people will go red in the MMO.

I'm very interested in testing stuff related to this like skill gain rates and how fast your alignment drops as a bandit. I've dropped down to below -170 within 5 minutes of logging in to help the guild I'm in.

I know that when you are close to -2000 alignment, you basically create a new character every time you die. The saving grace here is that you don't have to re-stat. You can pvp quite well with 90 skills, so I'm banking on 5x food multiplier to get back up to 90 relatively fast.

We'll see how all this actually works in the MMO though.

My point exactly. And the alighment is most likely going to be the same as in LiF:YO (as most of the other stuff). And that's a good thing, because it in combination with real money for second account will avoid lots of griefing.
Unlike YO when you drop below -50 you won't be able to fix it anymore and every time you die you lose tons of points (between 11 and all of them). And as we all know it's extremely easy to go below -50 when you go "raiding" someone. As a bonus to that attacking/killing red criminals (-50 guys) will cost no alighment so the majority who see them will probably attack and kill them (another -tons of points).
As the devs said on few occasions already the road of the bandit is not what we currently do on the PvP servers (killing spree) but robbing. You ambush a trader(or not) in the woods, knock him down with a blunt weapon (like flanged mace), loot him and and gtfo. This way you can rob 200 guys per day and still won't drop below 50 if you don't kill any of them. But as suggested if you go and make the life of some guild miserable by spawnkilling them as there is no admin to protect them you will be permanent criminal in a matter of minutes.

Another think I saw, but don't know if it's accurate is that all guilds need good relationship with the church (the pope, his cardinals etc) and pay tributes. If they don't or perform many criminal acts the church will expel them meaning that all member of the said guild can be attacked without alighment loss anywhere. That means the majority of the "noob crafters" will stay away from such guild and they will need 2nd account and craft their stuff alone to feed their criminal (-50 alighment) accounts after each death.

So tell me (not you Ishamael ) when the MMO is released after beta wipes and unlike the current PvP server you don't have x5 or x10 multiplier and 1000 alighment do you really think such butcheries and griefing that we currently do for training (and fun of course) will be common? Yes LiF:YO has no endgame (economy and guild coins + wars) and gets boring when you are past the crafting part after 200-300 hours, so we play on x5 or x10 servers beating the c**p out of each other on a daily basis. Even join other servers just to hunt peasants out of pure boredom. And it will be the same in the MMO beta, because when there are wipes you won't bother with big castles and the alighment will reset after each wipe + the most important job will be to explore the map and choose the "sweet spots" for after the release, so it will be butchery like a PvP server, esp in the beginning. But come one, it's very unrealistically to expect that it will always be pure PvP and that you will kill everyone you meet or go harass someone in his claim 24/7 just because you can.

Of course when you defend your claim against raiders you lose no alighment, when you fight a war with another guild you also lose no alighment and if you really need PvP only there will probably be arena in the main city again without alighment loss. So how many people will go griefing outside official wars and spend hours recovering after each death at x1 or slower rate?

[Karabas]

is no admin to protect them you

ohh....
cmon.

do u know the word "Politics" ? ask someone for help and pay after.... belive its your life in game....

do u think in 1300's years where were some "admin" to protect weak ppl? =)
weak must pay to strong.

some wise man sayd - "feed your own army, or you will feed the enemy's army"

find friends, help 1to1.
or just wait.

noone is interested in just standing on ur spawn and res-kill u for hours..... its boring.

[Stormsblade]

I'd like to add that Bobik has said many times in interviews, including very recently, that you will be able to war Dec other guilds and kill them with no alignment loss.

[Azzerhoden]

I'd like to add that Bobik has said many times in interviews, including very recently, that you will be able to war Dec other guilds and kill them with no alignment loss.

Exactly. I think we will need a program (old style or new) just to keep track of all the war decks.

That has absolutely nothing to do with having people camp you city 24x7 just to harass the inhabitants of the city. There are no zapp towers or 'hired guards' to protect those who just want to login and craft in a cocoon of safety.

Do you honestly think such kind of griefing will be common once the MMO is released (no more wipes)?

Absolutely. With good food being red is not as much of a hardship as many people think. I already have guys that have made their focus on how to play 'red'.

Plus, now that piety is a general skill, there is no reason why people cannot spend some time cranking up that skill (and their alignment) to put off becoming red for a much longer time. If the cycle in the MMO is 3 hours then there is 8 times every day players can raise their alignment.

Personally, I think the cycle time should be set at 6 hours but that's another discussion.

[Azzerhoden]

Another think I saw, but don't know if it's accurate is that all guilds need good relationship with the church (the pope, his cardinals etc) and pay tributes. If they don't or perform many criminal acts the church will expel them meaning that all member of the said guild can be attacked without alighment loss anywhere. That means the majority of the "noob crafters" will stay away from such guild and they will need 2nd account and craft their stuff alone to feed their criminal (-50 alighment) accounts after each death.

I'm pretty sure the whole 'pope' and 'cardinal' thing is out. Criminals do not necessarily have to play 'on their own' either.

I want to emphasis that neither I nor the Duchy of Wessex are 'red' entities. We follow a strict Rules of Engagement policy and focus aggression on declared enemies. In past games the RoE has been what is referred to in Eve as NBSI (Not Blue Don't Shoot) on our lands, and NRDS (Not Red Don't Shoot) everywhere else.

I don't know what our RoE will be in LIF as I have not talked to His Majesty or His Grace yet. As Ishamael said, until we are in the MMO we won't be able to know how some of this shakes out. I suspect it will be something along the lines of:

Classification

• Kingdom of Hyperion Members
• Allied
• Non-Aggression Pacts
• Neutrals
• Unrecognized
• Hostiles (at war with)

Estimated RoE

• Hyperion brethren would never be attacked, and we would actively help to defend them in all circumstances.
• Allies would never be attacked, and we would actively help to defend them in almost all circumstances. The exception being if they were under attack by another ally.
• Guilds with a NAP would never be attacked, and we would help defend them against criminal activity.
• Neutrals would be attacked only if they were trespassing on our land or we received a request for help from an ally.
• Unrecognized guilds may be attacked. It really depends on the circumstances. We would likely consider them barbarians. We wouldn't attack around newbie city though.
• Hostile guilds would be attacked on sight.

Again, the above is based on past games, and does not reflect how RoE rules in LIF will be set. Once our RoE are set, they will be posted on these forums.

My point of playing red is that if we see unknown folks moving around our lands, we will engage. We are not worried about having a 'red' status.

[Sharana]

Absolutely. With good food being red is not as much of a hardship as many people think. I already have guys that have made their focus on how to play 'red'.

It's not sentence in any case, but losing most or even all of your points every time you die is pretty significant. Can't be long term fun when you spend 2 hours of grinding every time you die and if you go PvPing or raiding you will clearly die quite often.
Not to mention the fact that during long battles like sieges you are done after the first death as you won't have the time to level all your stuff again on x1 speed or as speculated even slower.
The point is that because of this there won't be many volunteers to go on a killing spree and end up with permanent -50 alighment. So expecting mass butcheries and PvP everywhere all the time like on the current PvP servers is unrealistic.

Plus, now that piety is a general skill, there is no reason why people cannot spend some time cranking up that skill (and their alignment) to put off becoming red for a much longer time. If the cycle in the MMO is 3 hours then there is 8 times every day players can raise their alignment.

You plan on playing 24/7? Are you robot ? Even if you have no other stuff to do and play 8-9 hours per day you will get 3 alighment per day and lose 10 for killing a single person. So it's enough to have a buffer before going negative for unexpected events and killing trespasser, helping a friend/ally defend himself in the wildness etc. But nowhere near enough if you go and harass some city or village.

Personally, I think the cycle time should be set at 6 hours but that's another discussion.

Well 3 hours night would be too much esp if that's your playwindow for example. 3 hours day-night cycle is pretty good as that's pretty much how long most of the players spend on games after work and simulates a virtual day

Hostile guilds would be attacked on sight.

Most likely however that's rare event of meeting your enemy out there in the wildness and won't have real effect on your alighment.
But, quote from Bobik:

Guilds can declare war on each other, and after 24 hours that war will become active. Players in these guilds — along with whatever allies they can muster up during that 24 hours — will then be teleported into an instanced server that is complete with landscaping but devoid of fortification where the battle will take place. That means players had better be sure they are prepared before time is up, because you go with what you have! And don’t forget, you do lose things when you die, so fight smart.

It's very likely that like many other games the "wars" will be time limited to the instanced "field" battles and sieges, after that battle is over the "war" will be over too, you have to declare new one for tomorrow. Meaning that outside the instanced battles you are not in war and going as you say "camp you city 24x7 just to harass the inhabitants of the city" will destroy your alighment in a few moments and you won't find many volunteers for such activity.
If they remove the alighment penalty outside instanced and siege battles too then yes it's to be expected and even very likely to happen, but it's doubtful because no matter how you look at it it's more of a griefing and bandit style then fighting a war as a soldier, so it will be punished with the alighment loss.

[Hoshiqua]

Wars won't be limited in time. What you quoted were not quotes from Bobik himself, but from an interviewer who probably got it wrong.

Wars will be declared, and will persist until peace is agreed upon by both sides or one of the parties is destroyed. What you described (teleportations in an instanced battle) are battles which are used to lower a city's monument level so you may lay siege to it if it becomes low enough.

[Azzerhoden]

You plan on playing 24/7? Are you robot ?

No, I sub-contract to a third world country.

[Tdevera]

The admins from some of the servers who don't want to get kill for being asshats will just not tell people they were an admin.

[Yottskri]

The admins from some of the servers who don't want to get kill for being asshats will just not tell people they were an admin.

" We will, however, have official GM support for the MMO during the later waves of testing, and after the full launch!
"

[Ubaciosamse]

Official support as in people from the development staff not normal players Atleast not for now, Tolik that manages the complaints via helpme@lifeisfeudal.com is supposedly

"Name: Tolik aka "Tolik"

Role: GM for MMO, user's lead support "

Hes a great guy so far great help allways

[Ishamael]

Well I hope they choose GMs carefully. Public scandals with bad GMs have greatly damaged MMOs before. Sure they can fire the GM, but often the damage is done.

[Airco]

iam whit ishmael on this one.
not sure how good dev team is whit identifiying people
(and not to sound like a donky, oky i wanne say d*ck bhut thats not allowd on forum so piked donky)
i think bobik on his own is bit to trustworthy , altho thats the feeling i get from him, so i hope its more than just bobik to make the call who is going to be gm and who is not getting the privilege

[Ishamael]

With the JH info Bobik posted (claim destruction) this post is relevant again.

http://lifeisfeudal.gamepedia.com/Claim

[Ubaciosamse]

Vote for UBA for a GM everyone gets 2 cookies and a meal in their inventory!

[Hurlzalot]

Vote for UBA for a GM everyone gets 2 cookies and a meal in their inventory!

TWO cookies??! Im in.

[Azzerhoden]

Monument destruction in YO during judgement hour was always possible. Not sure what changed here.