Life is Feudal Official Forum

[Viik]

Placing it as a separate branch:
Padded -> Leather -> Male -> Scale -> Plate
Would make more sense if dev want to keep it according to their templates. I still don't think that this is the way how it should be and I would prefer to have more detailed way of handling armor side effects. But single branch would at least make more sense than what we have right now.

[Balagor]

Well, honestly I think armor should not be subjected to the wearers armor level, but his strength or/and agility among special skill level.

- you start ingame and steal plate armor, you move so slowly you cant even wear it and you take more damage. You take more damage because your plate skill level was so low you couldn't figure out how to wear it properly. As you move slowly along (looong time) your strength increases and plate level increases. This is one way to level up your armor.


However a better way is to maybe start with scale armor that isn't as heavy, your strength increases while walking around and your armor wearability (or whatever) increases aswell. Your knowledge of armor increases and you might want to move to something heavier since you now got the knowledge.



Now, you want to be an archer, you can wear plate or leather.

Plate armor slows you down and you can repostion, neither can you draw fast enough or reload your crossbow. However, you can still use it but it is far from ideal in distanced combat since it only slows you down.

Leather armor is light, you can move around and run to reposition and your agile movements make your reloading speed on crossbow fast. However, you can still use tho handed hammer, but one blow to the chest and you are done. Therefore you should not engage in close combat.

Everything can be balanced like this, the options should be there, but only certain combination work.

[Siegbert]

The way people were talking is that they wanted to be masters of every skill

But I was telling you repeatedly that this is not the case. Do you read what I wrote?

- you start ingame and steal plate armor, you move so slowly you cant even wear it

Yes.

and you take more damage.

No, that doesn't make much sense. There is only one way to wear armor...
Slowing you down should do the job.

[Tajin]

No need to chime in with snide comments. If you have nothing constructive to say dont say anything in the first place.

I only use snide comments when people apparently answer to a post before reading it properly. (which isnt constructive at all)

As Siegbert just said, no-one here wants it to be changed in a way so we can be masters of every skill, nor did we ever say anything like that!



I'm with Viik there, moving armor-skills to their own separate skill-line is probably the easiest fix.
That way you have to start with light armor and gain some basic skill with that before you can move on to wearing heavier armor.

[Goatee21]

beer we have said REPEATEDLY that we do NOT want to be masters of every skill. Basically all of us are saying the current system doesn't make sense. It is used in most games as a limiting factor to prevent level 1s from walking around in end game gear. All of us get that.
However that is NOT what we are talking about. Most of us seem to be saying the same thing, restricting us from strapping a piece of metal to our chest with some buckles because we don't have a high enough point in a skill just doesn't make sense. Especially not in a game like this.
There are other ways it could be done and we are discussing them. Modifiers, penalties etc etc. Just saying NO is not a solution. Well it IS, just not one I like.

[Beerbatov]

beer we have said REPEATEDLY that we do NOT want to be masters of every skill. Basically all of us are saying the current system doesn't make sense. It is used in most games as a limiting factor to prevent level 1s from walking around in end game gear. All of us get that.
However that is NOT what we are talking about. Most of us seem to be saying the same thing, restricting us from strapping a piece of metal to our chest with some buckles because we don't have a high enough point in a skill just doesn't make sense. Especially not in a game like this.
There are other ways it could be done and we are discussing them. Modifiers, penalties etc etc. Just saying NO is not a solution. Well it IS, just not one I like.

Im not saying NO, i might not want it to change to what you suggested but it doesnt mean im not open for it to change, but the only person who has even said anything constructive on the matter is Balagor with armor being related to agility and strength, that is something i agree with.

But to say it should go Padded > Leather > Scale > Chain > Plate or w.e doesn't make sense either since why would i need to know about leather armor to wear plate. Its the same logic behind why do i need sword mastery to wear scale.

Im just trying to see everyones logic behind their posts. Im not trying to be a dickhead about it just wagering in what i think on the topic.

[Goatee21]

What would make sense logically is for it to work how it does in real life ie no text telling me I can't do this.

If I come across some rich kingdom and the lord is in dire need of soldiers but has all the money in the world and can hand out plate armor why wouldn't he? If he is about to be attacked why wouldn't he spend all the money he could trying to make sure his peasants can at least try. In real life he could armor them all up and stand them at the gates and at least LOOK like he had a fully defended force even if they were just a bunch of farm boys.

In game this cannot happen because I can't pull a shirt over my head because I'm not skilled enough.

[Tajin]

But to say it should go Padded > Leather > Scale > Chain > Plate or w.e doesn't make sense either since why would i need to know about leather armor to wear plate.

Yeh I know.
But at least it wouldn't use a completely unrelated skill as requirement. It would create some sort of progression that effectively makes plate-armor only available when you're really dedicated and at a high cost of skill-points.

Not saying that I think this would be ideal but it would be a relatively easy change that could still improve things significantly.


I'd love to see it as Goatee21 describes it (Mortal Online works that way), but that would mean some really significant changes for the game, which is a bit unlikely to happen.

[Siegbert]

but the only person who has even said anything constructive on the matter is Balagor with armor being related to agility and strength, that is something i agree with.

The only person?
I've been saying that since page 1 and repeatedly did so because you obviously don't bother to read it... Others have as well.

[Goatee21]

The only person?
I've been saying that since page 1 and repeatedly did so because you obviously don't bother to read it... Others have as well.

lol i was thinking this as well but since you went ahead and said it.

+1

[Beerbatov]

The only person to even mention Strength and agility being used for armor is Balagor, neither of you mentioned it.

The only time Strength and Agility has been mentioned in relation to having it as a requirment for armor is page 4 in his post.

I've been saying that since page 1

Not one mention of Strength or agility in any of your posts.

[Goatee21]

Brand new weakling but still want to wear full plate armor? Congrats you are as slow as a Galapagos turtle. Total newb but found a leather shirt? congrats you are now armored up a bit but you have an agility penalty. Are you a thief that wants to wear chainmail? Of course you can but you now have a noise penalty off the charts.

Strength and agility mentioned.

Any dumb retard could slip a chainmail shirt over his head. Would I know how to properly buckle it and fit it? No. Would it protect me as well as the guy that it was made for? Of course not. Am I strong enough to wear it? etc etc.

Strength and intelligence mentioned. different than agility sure but the theme remains the same.

[Beerbatov]

Brand new weakling but still want to wear full plate armor? Congrats you are as slow as a Galapagos turtle. Total newb but found a leather shirt? congrats you are now armored up a bit but you have an agility penalty. Are you a thief that wants to wear chainmail? Of course you can but you now have a noise penalty off the charts.

Strength and agility mentioned.

Any dumb retard could slip a chainmail shirt over his head. Would I know how to properly buckle it and fit it? No. Would it protect me as well as the guy that it was made for? Of course not. Am I strong enough to wear it? etc etc.

Strength and intelligence mentioned. different than agility sure but the theme remains the same.

Agility penalty mentioned yes but not as the set requirment to use it.

Strength and Intelligence mentioned yes, but not as the set requirment to use it.

If you are more clear with your posts it would have been better.

Like i said if you read my post, Balagor is the only one to mention having Strength and Agility as a base requirement.

You have both been arguing that you should be able to wear any armor you want with penalties. Something i dont agree on. Full Plate Armor weighs more than 20stone, thats almost double my body weight..

Not anyone could use this stuff it did require physical strength and training.

[LtChae]

A medieval suit of plate armor weighed 15–25 kg(33-55 pounds). (According to Wikipedia)
I expect the quality of the workmanship determined where in that range it fell.
I'm not very strong at all, but I could definitely wear that right now. I'd be slow and uncomfortable, but a few weeks and I'd be used to it. A few months and I'd be able to move around with mobility, and a few years and I'd be able to move like a pro.

Medieval plate armor was not massively heavy. In fact it couldn't be, otherwise knights would not have been able to move at all, let alone fight. The reason peasants didn't wear plate armor is because they did not have access to it. At all. (In fact, I suspect that your average serf would be executed for owning something meant for knights (and so valuable))

So as your strength goes up, so does your ability to move in armor. And, as you get familiar with it, you learn to do more and more complicated maneuvers in spite of the armor. You don't learn how to do those maneuvers by wearing not-plate armor.

[Balagor]

I honestly don't think that armor should have a completely different skill tree for each type.

For example:

LEATHER ARMOR (The more agility you have, the less this affects your Stamina and speed)
lvl. 0
Effective movement speed and Stamina is lowered by 10%

lvl 30
Effective movement speed and Stamina lowered by 5%

lvl 60
Effective movement speed and Stamina reduction 0%




CHAINMAIL ARMOR (Naturally heavier than leather)

lvl. 0
Effective movement speed is lowered by 20%
20% penalty added on reloading crossbows and bowdraw.

lvl 30
Effective movement speed lowered by 15%
10% penalty added on reloading crossbows and bowdraw.

lvl 60
Effective movement speed is lowered by 10%
20% penalty added on reloading crossbows and bowdraw.




PLATEMAIL ARMOR
lvl 0
Effective movement speed is lowered by 60% (-1% for every strength level above 15)
50% penalty added on reloading crossbows and bowdraw.

lvl 30
Effective movement speed is lowered by 40% (-1% for every strength level above 15)
40% penalty added on reloading crossbows and bowdraw.

lvl 60
Effective movement speed is lowered by 30% (-1% for every strength level above 15)
30% penalty added on reloading crossbows and bowdraw.




BOW HANDLING (you start off with very bad distance and big penalty to crosshair stabilization.

lvl 0
distance increased on fully drawn bow shot by 10% (+1% for every agility level above 15). Crosshairs stabilized by 10%

lvl 30
distance increased on fully drawn bow shot by 30% (+1% for every agility level above 15). Crosshairs stabilizes by 40%

lvl 60
distance increased on fully drawn bow shot by 50% (+1% for every agility level above 15). Crosshairs stabilized by 70%


This is something that I just wrote from the top of my head.

[Viik]

Something i dont agree on. Full Plate Armor weighs more than 20stone, thats almost double my body weight..

Not anyone could use this stuff it did require physical strength and training.

Then this is a pure game bullshit, none of the armors were that heavy even the tournament ones.

[Goatee21]

Agility penalty mentioned yes but not as the set requirment to use it.

Strength and Intelligence mentioned yes, but not as the set requirment to use it.

And now you are just splitting hairs, I think everyone was following along with my line of thought but you.

[Viik]

I honestly don't think that armor should have a completely different skill tree for each type.

For example:
...

This is something that I just wrote from the top of my head.

I still would add armor maintenance and fit for economical factor. Otherwise any lonely player could skill up and easily wear plate.

[Goatee21]

Anyone played the first gothic? Different genre obviously but the sword handling in it was awesome. When you first have a two handed sword you hold it like and oaf and swing wildly. As you level it up (skill point based yuck but whatever) then you hold it properly, later you can swing it harder etc. Very cool.

[Siegbert]

Not one mention of Strength or agility in any of your posts.

Eh? I was talking about speed loss and the inability to move because you're overburdened. But I guess I have to use exactly your words to get some credit here...

[Sushiy]

I honestly don't think that armor should have a completely different skill tree for each type.

For example:
...

I would even go as far as to say that alll equipment skills should get their own skill that is completely unrelated to any other equipment skill. Sure, you could choose to make it so that they have interconnections...for example: having lvl 60 spears might influence your ability to use polearms and your learning of that particular skill.
But that does in no way mean that you need to learn spears first to do so.


A tiered system also always implies a hierarchical order of strength or at least "awesomeness"
->
Is an axe a better weapon that a sword? No? then why is it way down the skill tree? Is a bow the better ranged weapon? no? why is it after crossbows?


Also intuitivity was mentioned. And from what I have learned inutitivity is key to great games.
And to me it is extremely counterintuitive and unimmersive, that to play a hunter character, that uses a spear and a bow, some of the most basic weapons that even people in the stone age found out about, after ditching stones and clubs, I have to not only be good at wearing leather armor and using crossbows as well as being good militia and knowing how to use padded armor.

So I have to become a full fledged, and variedly proficient warrior, that also has learned almost all crafting skills in the game (to make armor) before i can pursue the most basic human lifestyle of hunting.

I care to disagree with this "gamedesign decision"

there are other "combat skills" that do fit in trees. riding for example. Yes, you need to learn basic riding before you can try mounted combat or later mounted archery. yes, you should have basic milita training before you learn about advanced tactics and formations. Those are more abstract things, that cannot be just "tried out" by picking them up from the street (because you cannot literally do that)


Edit:
Oh and before i get hit over the head with the "you want everyone to be able to do anything"-club by a certain someone:
In short: YES I do! I want anyone to be able to pick up the stuff he finds lying around for whatever reason.

In long: Yes I do! I want anyone to be able to pick up the stuff he finds lying around for whatever reason. But he should not be able to do anything particularly useful with it. like with slings..you can hardly hit a moose at point blank range at skill lvl 0. at 100 however you can hit things decently. buut the other people here have talked about this already. I would just make the skilldifference more extreme and put a "new" skillcap called equipmentskills in that would cap at 200-300 or so. thereby you could choose to be an armorless berserker proficient in the use of 1h and 2h and throwing axes (crazed viking style) or be a more conservative viking with mail armor and a shield.
or whatever else you wish to be.
because:
This is a sandbox game!

[Ayphion]

Well if this game was British Isle back in the day where it was law for every able bodied male to practice with a bow... it would have failed because they poor bas**rds would have needed to first learn how to use the crossbow?? bloody early humans learned to use the bow before any engineering feat of building a crossbow.

weapons tier? donno about that; but proficiency skills definatly. Any chump can pick up a bow and arrow but it takes yonks of practice to be abled to hit something even at 100 yards.. specially a moving target.

the whole armour and weapons thing needs a re think I belive.

[Kjaskar]

I agree.

There may not even be a large impact on balance through this. Nobody will learn 2 or more Armor-skills, but rather focus on getting better with _one_. Or maybe people will bother in different, very rare occasions, where wearing padded armor even though they are skilled in Plate might come in handy.

Same with weapons.

Same with cooking, too. Why do I need to learn how to plant Crops and harvest them, tend animals for quite a while, weave ropes and slaughter Animals before I can _put meat on fire and let it cook until done_ .... No! My Head refuses to accept that this makes any possible sense, no matter how much sense it might make (in some way) because it does not make sense. None. At all.

I might have overreacted a little bit, there, but still - a little bit of looking into how the Skills are set up might just go a long way - its a sandbox, a damn good sandbox-environment already, this might just do the trick to let People actually evolve with it, rather than playing herbalistminerfarmerveterinaryblacksmithcooks on Skillcap2000 servers because the dependencies make no sense at all to them and they _want_ to play as a Blacksmith who occasionally sits at a Fire cooking up some Stew for his Friends that, while not out there hunting in Rags with Spear & Bow, want to enjoy a good meal without first heaving to learn how to cook before they can actually eat it.