Life is Feudal Official Forum

[Hodo]

So what you're saying is that we should all build our camps on hills? Huh interesting. Would like to hear more words of wisdom.

Can you sit on ice cream and tell me he flavor?

[Risky]

If someone takes time to build a platform to get across a gap, or build bark boxes to scale a wall, then they worked for it. If you cant defend your walls then recruit more people, or just join someone else bigger.

Ahhhh so if somebody did their homework and took some time out working on these unintended mechanics then it's ok.

Also we should recruit more people and be online more often?

And if not, all the little guys should just join a bigger guild because this game has no place for small settlements and different types of settlements?

I'm making notes of these inspiring words of wisdom that others haven't thought and and have absolutely no flaws in them whatsoever.

[Hodo]

Ahhhh so if somebody did their homework and took some time out working on these unintended mechanics then it's ok.

Also we should recruit more people and be online more often?

And if not, all the little guys should just join a bigger guild because this game has no place for small settlements and different types of settlements?

I'm making notes of these inspiring words of wisdom that others haven't thought and and have absolutely no flaws in them whatsoever.

You seem

You really have a bro-crush on me. I am flattered but you are not my type.

[sunleader]

Ahhhh so if somebody did their homework and took some time out working on these unintended mechanics then it's ok.

Also we should recruit more people and be online more often?

And if not, all the little guys should just join a bigger guild because this game has no place for small settlements and different types of settlements?

I'm making notes of these inspiring words of wisdom that others haven't thought and and have absolutely no flaws in them whatsoever.

You seem

You really have a bro-crush on me. I am flattered but you are not my type.

Your perceived romantic interests aside ^^


He is not exactly wrong.

I dont think making it a requirement to learn Glitches and Bugs before Joining the Game is really a good Idea.

I am Sorrry. But I doubt that we will get much Active Players in this Game if you need a 500+ People Guild in this Game before Walls are Worth something.
Needless to say that People like me which can only Play a few hours per Day and also Play other Games aside from this one. Would be excluded from the Game if this came up.

It being impossible to Play in Smaller Groups is also pretty much a No Go for a Game. And would reduce the Playerbase Tremendously.





Needless to say that your Claim there is absolutely Illogical.

A 600 People Guild has never less than 50 to 100 People Online ???
Assuming an Perfect Spread over the Timezones so you got no High Times.
This would mean the Average Player in that Guild is Online for 4 Hours a Day
Every Day a Week.

Thing is this is assuming they got no High Time either.


The Basic Calculation for Off Hour People Online is less than 5% of a Guild my Friend.
So a 600 Player Guild in the Off Hours would have maybe 10-25 People Online.



To begin with.
If thats how the Game were intended to work.
The Split on NA and EU Servers would make no Sense.
Cause you would not need JH at all.
Due to the Majority of Attacks not going to happen in the JH anyways and just being made during the Day.




Sorry Mate.
But the Change they wanna Make is the Best Choice right now until Siege Equipment becomes available.
Because the Majority of Players is not RPKs that only want to Fight All Day.
This is not Chivalry.

Most Players want to Build a Fortress and Fight actual Wars on the Battlefield.
Not some annoying Guerillia War Attacking each other in the Off Hours.

[Hodo]

Your perceived romantic interests aside ^^


He is not exactly wrong.

I dont think making it a requirement to learn Glitches and Bugs before Joining the Game is really a good Idea.

I am Sorrry. But I doubt that we will get much Active Players in this Game if you need a 500+ People Guild in this Game before Walls are Worth something.
Needless to say that People like me which can only Play a few hours per Day and also Play other Games aside from this one. Would be excluded from the Game if this came up.

It being impossible to Play in Smaller Groups is also pretty much a No Go for a Game. And would reduce the Playerbase Tremendously.





Needless to say that your Claim there is absolutely Illogical.

A 600 People Guild has never less than 50 to 100 People Online ???
Assuming an Perfect Spread over the Timezones so you got no High Times.
This would mean the Average Player in that Guild is Online for 4 Hours a Day
Every Day a Week.

Thing is this is assuming they got no High Time either.


The Basic Calculation for Off Hour People Online is less than 5% of a Guild my Friend.
So a 600 Player Guild in the Off Hours would have maybe 10-25 People Online.



To begin with.
If thats how the Game were intended to work.
The Split on NA and EU Servers would make no Sense.
Cause you would not need JH at all.
Due to the Majority of Attacks not going to happen in the JH anyways and just being made during the Day.




Sorry Mate.
But the Change they wanna Make is the Best Choice right now until Siege Equipment becomes available.
Because the Majority of Players is not RPKs that only want to Fight All Day.
This is not Chivalry.

Most Players want to Build a Fortress and Fight actual Wars on the Battlefield.
Not some annoying Guerillia War Attacking each other in the Off Hours.

Even if your guild drops to 5% active during off-peak hours that is still 30+/- online. That is still more than enough to have at least ONE person keeping some kind of vigilant eye out for raiders.

I agree about the guerilla warfare and such... I get tired of the 1v1 me bro crowd.

But let's be honest, PVP is what drives a lot of development.

[sunleader]

Your perceived romantic interests aside ^^


He is not exactly wrong.

I dont think making it a requirement to learn Glitches and Bugs before Joining the Game is really a good Idea.

I am Sorrry. But I doubt that we will get much Active Players in this Game if you need a 500+ People Guild in this Game before Walls are Worth something.
Needless to say that People like me which can only Play a few hours per Day and also Play other Games aside from this one. Would be excluded from the Game if this came up.

It being impossible to Play in Smaller Groups is also pretty much a No Go for a Game. And would reduce the Playerbase Tremendously.





Needless to say that your Claim there is absolutely Illogical.

A 600 People Guild has never less than 50 to 100 People Online ???
Assuming an Perfect Spread over the Timezones so you got no High Times.
This would mean the Average Player in that Guild is Online for 4 Hours a Day
Every Day a Week.

Thing is this is assuming they got no High Time either.


The Basic Calculation for Off Hour People Online is less than 5% of a Guild my Friend.
So a 600 Player Guild in the Off Hours would have maybe 10-25 People Online.



To begin with.
If thats how the Game were intended to work.
The Split on NA and EU Servers would make no Sense.
Cause you would not need JH at all.
Due to the Majority of Attacks not going to happen in the JH anyways and just being made during the Day.




Sorry Mate.
But the Change they wanna Make is the Best Choice right now until Siege Equipment becomes available.
Because the Majority of Players is not RPKs that only want to Fight All Day.
This is not Chivalry.

Most Players want to Build a Fortress and Fight actual Wars on the Battlefield.
Not some annoying Guerillia War Attacking each other in the Off Hours.

Even if your guild drops to 5% active during off-peak hours that is still 30+/- online. That is still more than enough to have at least ONE person keeping some kind of vigilant eye out for raiders.

I agree about the guerilla warfare and such... I get tired of the 1v1 me bro crowd.

But let's be honest, PVP is what drives a lot of development.

Well Mate.
Thing is 500+ Members is an Real Rare Case.
I would assume you can Count the Number of Cities that have such High Numbers can be counted on one Hand.


Most Clans will Struggle to have more than 100 Members.
And here comes an Tremendous Inequality.


You see.
In Reality Defense or Attack would not matter so much in terms of Manpower.
But in a Game it does.

Because lets take this 600 Member Clan.
And Assume they got 30 People online during their Offhours.

They are a Damn 600 Member Clan having Spend like 1 Month on Building a Stonewall around their City.
And now that 50 People RPK/Griefer Clan Attacks em.
They know they would never stand a Chance if they Attacked them properly during JH.
So they decide to go the Cowards way and just call all their Members for a Night Raid.

They will have 45 out of 50 People Online to Fight.
Meanwhile the other guys will have 20-30 of their 600 People Online.
And likely the Wall wont really pose any protection because the 20-30 People will likely not be able to really Cover the Huge Wall such a Settlement needs to cover its City.




I have Played alot of these Games.
And I know exactly how this works by now.

We have Crushed 100 People Clans with less than 20 guys.
Simply because we Attacked em in their Offhours when they had like 3-5 People Online while we knew 3 days in advance to be there on that Time.



Sorry.
But this is a Game.
People cant Spend 24 Hours in the Game.
So for Competetive actions like Attacking Cities you need to move em into an Timeframe where People can actually get Online most of the Time.

This is why JH Exists.


In General.
Attacking Settlements outside of JH should not be Possible at all.
Much less should it be Possible to Scale Walls outside of JH.


I actually Hope that this Change will Persist even for Siege Equipment.
So that you wont get over Walls unless its JH and your actually Sieging the Settlement.



Because otherwise this Game will be Dead very Fast.
As everyone except the Hardcore PvPers will leave the Game.
And Hardcore PvPers are an very very small niche of Players.


Also
PvP doesnt really drive Development at all to be honest.
If you check around which Games have the most Players.
You.ll notice that Hardcore PvP MMO Sandbox Games have the absolutely smallest Niche Playerbase of all.
The Biggest Games are Sandbox MMOs with highly restricted PvP

The Biggest MMOs in General are Themeparks where PvP only works in highly Limited Zones.




Because for your Info.
Most of the Hardcore PvPers will Leave fairly soon anyways.

MMOs aint really good for PvPers in the long run.
Especially not Open World MMOs. Where looking for Targets and Fights takes time. And where you have to Prepare alot of stuff to Fight.

They get Bored very Fast.
And unless you keep constant PvP up for them at all times and everywhere. They tend to Leave.

Thing is. If you do that everyone else Leaves.
And then the PvPers leave as well anyways cause Targets get Scarce.



The Population staying the Longest and the most Reliable is actually the City Builders and Grinders.
Because they enjoy just Playing the Game and Building their Big Cities and Keeps. And then maintaining them.

Its one of the Reasons why I think this Game really needs more NPC Enemies and more NPC Settlements. As usually the Players keeping a Game alife are those who are going after such stuff rather than Roam around for PvP.




PvPers Generally Decrease all other Population in the Game.
And if there is only PvPers left they start Decreasing themselves.

So if you dont restrict them from Decimating the Population.
The Game ends up Dead very Fast.

[Hodo]

Sunleader, you really need to learn to get to a point when you type.

In short you are saying that PVPers kill PVErs, which hurts the population?

Not true at all. The two need each other to survive. PvE'ers want to play and build cool sandcastles but when they are done they move on. Without some form of conflict either through a very advanced AI enemy or from players they have no threat, thus get bored and leave.

PVPers need the "sheep" to hunt, while PvP'ers love fighting other PvP'ers they get burned out on "fair" fights or just getting out numbered and want an "easy" win. Thus they need the PvE'er (sheep).

Then there are those that are part time PvPers who like to fight, but dont like to fight those that cant defend themselves. They are usually the ones fighting the gankers and such. The ones protecting the PvE'er... but these sheepdogs will get bored and leave without the PvP'er wolf coming and trying to kill the easy sheep.

It is a fine balance.

Without proper siege mechanics, and limiting when an attack can happen, is only going to further push the wolves and sheepdogs away. As they wont have meaningful fights outside of a set time. Which the wolves DONT want.

[Risky]

Yea sorry Hodo it wasn’t until the 3rd post I made in response to you that I realised it was the same guy. There was no intention to target and embarrass one person, I honestly thought it was different people.

What are some of the issues or potential obstacles with some of the things you suggested?

Let’s take, for example, building your settlement on a large hill. How everybody should build their settlement on a large hill. What potential obstacles could there be to that?

The only other one that stood out for me was when you suggested that players pick up and move the sleeping bags to break the bridge. What do you think are some of the potential issues that could arise if players went ahead and did that?

[sunleader]

Sunleader, you really need to learn to get to a point when you type.

In short you are saying that PVPers kill PVErs, which hurts the population?

Not true at all. The two need each other to survive. PvE'ers want to play and build cool sandcastles but when they are done they move on. Without some form of conflict either through a very advanced AI enemy or from players they have no threat, thus get bored and leave.

PVPers need the "sheep" to hunt, while PvP'ers love fighting other PvP'ers they get burned out on "fair" fights or just getting out numbered and want an "easy" win. Thus they need the PvE'er (sheep).

Then there are those that are part time PvPers who like to fight, but dont like to fight those that cant defend themselves. They are usually the ones fighting the gankers and such. The ones protecting the PvE'er... but these sheepdogs will get bored and leave without the PvP'er wolf coming and trying to kill the easy sheep.

It is a fine balance.

Without proper siege mechanics, and limiting when an attack can happen, is only going to further push the wolves and sheepdogs away. As they wont have meaningful fights outside of a set time. Which the wolves DONT want.

Ah Sorry about that lol
I tend to explain too much I know.....


And Yes.
Unrestricted PvP will result in PvPers decimating the PvEers very fast.

The reason for that is exactly in the what you say.
PvPers get Burned out on Fighting and need Easy Kills.
Very Right.
But take a guess. How Fun is it to be the Sheep Slaughtered for an Easy Kill.

How many times you think that happens before the "Sheep" says.
**** you all I am out.
I can tell you.
In some cases a Single time is enough.
In other cases its 4 to 5 times.

thing is. Its never enough to ever possibly satisfy the PvPers without People leaving.



Your right about this being a fine Balance.
Thing is. Currently no such Balance exists.

Currently the Wolves have a Staggering Advantage cause they will just attack when no Shepherd Dogs are around.
And the Sheep will thus be Decimated so fast that they cant possibly maintain Population.


In turn what you get is this.
http://steamcharts.com/app/287920

An Awesome Game with awesome Combat and Crafting System and an completely Open World.
In which however. Thanks to there being no Limits on RPKs.
Only the RPKs are left. As everyone else has gone away frustrated.



If you allow the Wolves to just Attack when the Shepherd Dogs aint Online. The Shepherd Dogs will Leave Bored.
The Sheep will leave Frustrated.
And soon after the Wolves will leave Bored as well.


You need to give the Sheep a Safe Place to Build Up.
Or you will never Grow a Herd my Friend.

[Hodo]

Ah Sorry about that lol
I tend to explain too much I know.....


And Yes.
Unrestricted PvP will result in PvPers decimating the PvEers very fast.


In turn what you get is this.
http://steamcharts.com/app/287920

An Awesome Game with awesome Combat and Crafting System and an completely Open World.
In which however. Thanks to there being no Limits on RPKs.
Only the RPKs are left. As everyone else has gone away frustrated.



If you allow the Wolves to just Attack when the Shepherd Dogs aint Online. The Shepherd Dogs will Leave Bored.
The Sheep will leave Frustrated.
And soon after the Wolves will leave Bored as well.


You need to give the Sheep a Safe Place to Build Up.
Or you will never Grow a Herd my Friend.

There are a number of reasons for Mortal Onlines numbers. One of which is half of the population doesnt use Steam. I know I am one. I am a Block B beta MO player. I know that story all to well. And I am not a hardcore PVPer, or an RPKer, I have been red, I was for a couple of years, with over 100 murder counts. The reasons for the failures of that game I have listed on those forums, time and time again. (yes I am the SAME Hodo).

I also hold the distinction of being the only person on those forums who has been perma-banned twice, and came back BOTH times.

[sunleader]

Ah Sorry about that lol
I tend to explain too much I know.....


And Yes.
Unrestricted PvP will result in PvPers decimating the PvEers very fast.


In turn what you get is this.
http://steamcharts.com/app/287920

An Awesome Game with awesome Combat and Crafting System and an completely Open World.
In which however. Thanks to there being no Limits on RPKs.
Only the RPKs are left. As everyone else has gone away frustrated.



If you allow the Wolves to just Attack when the Shepherd Dogs aint Online. The Shepherd Dogs will Leave Bored.
The Sheep will leave Frustrated.
And soon after the Wolves will leave Bored as well.


You need to give the Sheep a Safe Place to Build Up.
Or you will never Grow a Herd my Friend.

There are a number of reasons for Mortal Onlines numbers. One of which is half of the population doesnt use Steam. I know I am one. I am a Block B beta MO player. I know that story all to well. And I am not a hardcore PVPer, or an RPKer, I have been red, I was for a couple of years, with over 100 murder counts. The reasons for the failures of that game I have listed on those forums, time and time again. (yes I am the SAME Hodo).

I also hold the distinction of being the only person on those forums who has been perma-banned twice, and came back BOTH times.

Mate you can triple the Number if you want.
But that Game is pretty much Dead.

You cant Finance a Proper Dev Team with just a few Hundred Players.
Needless to say that alot of em are Double and Triple Accounts.


Mortal Online aint alone either.
Thats how all of the Sandbox MMOs with unrestricted PvP end up.



Its really Simple.
You already Named it.


Wolves need Sheep to Kill.
And this Statement alone gives me the most Simple thing to completely wreck your Argument.


How many People do you think have Fun Playing that Sheep to provide Easy Kills.

Because as soon as you Answer that Question you realize Perfectly well just why you will never Grow a Population if you let the Wolves run Free.

[Hodo]

Mortal Online aint alone either.
Thats how all of the Sandbox MMOs with unrestricted PvP end up.

Wolves need Sheep to Kill.
And this Statement alone gives me the most Simple thing to completely wreck your Argument.


How many People do you think have Fun Playing that Sheep to provide Easy Kills.

Because as soon as you Answer that Question you realize Perfectly well just why you will never Grow a Population if you let the Wolves run Free.

No offense to the sheep, but a great many of the sheep move on after a few weeks anyway. They achieve what ever little goal they had and move on to the next sandbox. Rarely do they contribute in any meaningful way without conflict.

I have seen some amazing things built in some sandbox games, only to leave behind some teraformed mess a few weeks later because they got all the screenshots they wanted.

You have to balance who you cater to in a sandbox, if you lean to far one way, the other side will leave, if you go the other way the others will leave.

This is why Wurm Online is mostly dead. To much towards the sheep and not enough to the wolves.

So the wolves left, and the sheep got bored.

[Killa162]

But at the same time you also can't take one mechanic away and not replace it with another. You can't take sand out of the box and not replace the sand. If you do game development like that as the game is LIVE, you'll just damage your relationship with the customer and make some players leave. Eventually if practices like this continue to happen where something is removed but the "fix" isn't replaced the same time the "problem" is taken out you just create a whole new unbalance. I'd be happy with JUST a siege ladder, can add towers, rams, and etc later. But to just replace the mechanic of how it was done, with something new right now, would go a long way. Any guild would be happy to craft such ladders. But when you take content out of the game, you really limit what to do every day.

They are a Damn 600 Member Clan having Spend like 1 Month on Building a Stonewall around their City.
And now that 50 People RPK/Griefer Clan Attacks em.
They know they would never stand a Chance if they Attacked them properly during JH.
So they decide to go the Cowards way and just call all their Members for a Night Raid.

They will have 45 out of 50 People Online to Fight.
Meanwhile the other guys will have 20-30 of their 600 People Online.
And likely the Wall wont really pose any protection because the 20-30 People will likely not be able to really Cover the Huge Wall such a Settlement needs to cover its City."

^^^ Also to this statement @Sunleader Even if your numbers were smaller for a 100 man or 200 man guild that's not just some barbarian guild that raids larger targets. Put it into perspective that your a kingdom and someone settles on your "land". Obviously not your claim, but on your server and they're your enemies, or you just want to keep your server clean and control it. They erect walls and now the only way to force them to be vassals or make them destroy their monument to pick up shop and leave is to camp their gate/borders? In the feudal era if you wanted to control land and conquer, your enemy didn't wait for a "JH" to want that land. The Saxons didn't wait around for a "set time" for you to be ready for them to attack. If they wanted to raid and force you out, they would raid you till the end of time. Ultimately you destroying the monument, or becoming vassals in the empire. That's how politics and domination works. JH is just a form of battle to wipe out heavily fortified guilds. Why would a large guild go after a small guild during a JH? When they could just raid them or siege(when it's implemented) them and force them out earlier because from a strategic PoV using your time to JH a small guild is a waste of time when it's better suited vs other kingdom enemies, not potential vassals or settlers that have no alignment in alliances in your area.

It's kinda aggravating when you only look at it from a mechanic PoV of being cheesy. And you don't look at it from the other side of the game of kingdoms don't have time to waste during a JH. JH's are timed events, so once its over it's done. Time is better spent raiding and sieging smaller installations on off JH times (meaning any time that isn't a JH).

We've made small/medium size clans move raiding in these tactics. And kingdoms should have that freedom to do so to control the land how they please. Not be dictated by game limitations because development is slow on intended game mechanics that aren't in the game yet. It's really just bullshit, plain and simple.

[sunleader]

Mortal Online aint alone either.
Thats how all of the Sandbox MMOs with unrestricted PvP end up.

Wolves need Sheep to Kill.
And this Statement alone gives me the most Simple thing to completely wreck your Argument.


How many People do you think have Fun Playing that Sheep to provide Easy Kills.

Because as soon as you Answer that Question you realize Perfectly well just why you will never Grow a Population if you let the Wolves run Free.

No offense to the sheep, but a great many of the sheep move on after a few weeks anyway. They achieve what ever little goal they had and move on to the next sandbox. Rarely do they contribute in any meaningful way without conflict.

I have seen some amazing things built in some sandbox games, only to leave behind some teraformed mess a few weeks later because they got all the screenshots they wanted.

You have to balance who you cater to in a sandbox, if you lean to far one way, the other side will leave, if you go the other way the others will leave.

This is why Wurm Online is mostly dead. To much towards the sheep and not enough to the wolves.

So the wolves left, and the sheep got bored.

Your avoiding my Question and also your Contradicting yourself.
Because if Sheep leave anyways. And due to that the Wolves leave as well.
Then catering to the Wolves wont solve anything.
It will just make the Sheep leave even faster and thus the Wolves also leaving even faster.

[Killa162]

Your avoiding my Question and also your Contradicting yourself.
Because if Sheep leave anyways. And due to that the Wolves leave as well.
Then catering to the Wolves wont solve anything.
It will just make the Sheep leave even faster and thus the Wolves also leaving even faster.

The simple thing instead of going back and forth is, some kind of alternative with "legit" mechanics aka a ladder needed to replace what the bark boxes did.

What's the point of the game to afk inside walls to gather/craft/skill up if it's to only do JH once a week. It becomes a problem like most private servers of WoW face. Release has a huge spike, people grind for max level, gear, then once geared, you literally raid log and farm enough money for repairs and pots/food buffs.

LiF:MMO will become the same fate as WoW private realms if means of raiding off hours to JH's aren't available. People that have multiple characters for PvE/PvP reasons in kingdoms will log in to do bare minimum of make armor/weapons/food/trebs for JH, then once JH hits, all log in to do it then rinse repeat. The game will have a shell of a playerbase at all playing hours till Judement day hits and you'll see a spike.

Raiding and Sieges that aren't tied to JH NEED to be in the game to keep it healthy for wolfs to have a reason to log in. PvE players or carebears have reasons to log in all the time to keep making there base look cool.

[Tordr86]

I think this topic has ran its course. Siege mechanics and boats aren't in the game, so until then we just have to deal with the band aid fix. Also, NO to judgment hour (this is coming from a PvE player).

[sunleader]

Your avoiding my Question and also your Contradicting yourself.
Because if Sheep leave anyways. And due to that the Wolves leave as well.
Then catering to the Wolves wont solve anything.
It will just make the Sheep leave even faster and thus the Wolves also leaving even faster.

The simple thing instead of going back and forth is, some kind of alternative with "legit" mechanics aka a ladder needed to replace what the bark boxes did.

What's the point of the game to afk inside walls to gather/craft/skill up if it's to only do JH once a week. It becomes a problem like most private servers of WoW face. Release has a huge spike, people grind for max level, gear, then once geared, you literally raid log and farm enough money for repairs and pots/food buffs.

LiF:MMO will become the same fate as WoW private realms if means of raiding off hours to JH's aren't available. People that have multiple characters for PvE/PvP reasons in kingdoms will log in to do bare minimum of make armor/weapons/food/trebs for JH, then once JH hits, all log in to do it then rinse repeat. The game will have a shell of a playerbase at all playing hours till Judement day hits and you'll see a spike.

Raiding and Sieges that aren't tied to JH NEED to be in the game to keep it healthy for wolfs to have a reason to log in. PvE players or carebears have reasons to log in all the time to keep making there base look cool.

WoW is a Themepark Game.
There is little to no loss from Death.



Simple Fact for you.
If you check Steam or other Lists.
What you notice is.


Games with Unrestricted PvP after a few Years sit on a Population of 100-500 People.
Games with Restricted but still fairly Open PvP sit on 1000-2000 People.
Games with Heavily Restricted PvP for example PvP only in PvP Zones usually sit on a Population of 1000-10000 Players.


Why do you think that is ?
The Answer is pretty Simple.


Actual PvP Players want to Fight other Fighters.
For them PvP zones are the best they can get. Because it means they know exactly where to look for Combat. And can then Fight there to their Hearts Content.

This includes Castle and Guild Attacks in Special Instances that are Initiated and then happen during a certain time of the Day.


These PvPers generally also wont bother the PvE Players.
In Opposite. They dont want PvE Players to go away cause PvE Players make it cheaper and easier for them to get Good Equipment and Items. Thus usually also serving as Combat Power to them in Difficult Raids.



Thing is.
The Open World Games with Unrestricted PvP generally dont attract PvPers.
Because finding Fights is Hard and takes time. You have no idea where to look. And even if you find something others might not be Online.

What it however attracts. Is RPKs and Griefers. Which dont want PvP. But just want to Kill others and Frustrate them to have Fun off it.
Which as you can imagine ends up with PvE Players leaving. Because they are the guys that need to be Frustrated for these RPKs to have Fun.






The Change of making Walls a Fairly Safe Protection outside JH.
Is not hurting PvPers at all.
Because from the get go they had no benefit from Raiding Settlements that were not really Protected in the First Place.

The only ones suffering from this Change is RPKs and Griefers.
And Sorry but I wont feel sorry that those whose Aim in the Game it is to Frustrate others. Feel Frustrated about something.

I already know that many of them are very Thin Skinned when they end up at the Frustrated End of the Stick.



But Every Single one of them.
Now complaining here that he will leave the Game.
Is a very Nice Evidence that this was the Right Choice.
Because if they Leave due to that 1 Single time they got Bashed.
Then take a guess just how many People left because of them already.

[Hodo]

Simple Fact for you.
If you check Steam or other Lists.
What you notice is.


Games with Unrestricted PvP after a few Years sit on a Population of 100-500 People.
Games with Restricted but still fairly Open PvP sit on 1000-2000 People.
Games with Heavily Restricted PvP for example PvP only in PvP Zones usually sit on a Population of 1000-10000 Players.

First name one "good" unrestricted PVP sandbox game?

Like LiF:MMO.

Only one I could think of was Ultima Online pre-Trammel, but that was the first and the measuring stick all others have been held to.

The only other sandbox MMO games with terrain deformation (digging) I can count on one hand.

1- Wurm Online (which has less players than here.)
2-Xsyon (which is VERY VERY dead)

Then you have other games that DONT have terrain deformation but are "sandbox" MMOs.

- Mortal Online, (which through a dozen reasons is struggling, but is still "successful")

-Darkfall (any of the 3 versions which came out and failed)

-Face of Mankind (which is dead, twice over now)


Then you have a dozen restrictive PVP zone sandbox games...

-Star Wars Galaxies
-Neocron2
-Dark Age of Camelot

And the list can go on.....

To my knowledge all three of the last ones I listed are dead also... except an Emulator version of two of them which you could fit their whole population in ONE tile of this game.


There is a circle to sandbox MMO PVP... it is real simple.

Fear = Thrill = Tedium

There has to be fear of loss, it has to equal the thrill of success, but it has to balance with the tedium of the grind.

If any of those get out of balance you end up killing the whole thing.

To much grind, the game becomes tedious and not fun, because you spend MORE time grinding than looking for thrills.

To much fear and you will never want to grind in fear of just losing what you grinded for.

To much thrill, and why bother with anything else, you will burn out like a meth addict.

[sunleader]

Simple Fact for you.
If you check Steam or other Lists.
What you notice is.


Games with Unrestricted PvP after a few Years sit on a Population of 100-500 People.
Games with Restricted but still fairly Open PvP sit on 1000-2000 People.
Games with Heavily Restricted PvP for example PvP only in PvP Zones usually sit on a Population of 1000-10000 Players.

First name one "good" unrestricted PVP sandbox game?

Like LiF:MMO.

Only one I could think of was Ultima Online pre-Trammel, but that was the first and the measuring stick all others have been held to.

The only other sandbox MMO games with terrain deformation (digging) I can count on one hand.

1- Wurm Online (which has less players than here.)
2-Xsyon (which is VERY VERY dead)

Then you have other games that DONT have terrain deformation but are "sandbox" MMOs.

- Mortal Online, (which through a dozen reasons is struggling, but is still "successful")

-Darkfall (any of the 3 versions which came out and failed)

-Face of Mankind (which is dead, twice over now)


Then you have a dozen restrictive PVP zone sandbox games...

-Star Wars Galaxies
-Neocron2
-Dark Age of Camelot

And the list can go on.....

To my knowledge all three of the last ones I listed are dead also... except an Emulator version of two of them which you could fit their whole population in ONE tile of this game.


There is a circle to sandbox MMO PVP... it is real simple.

Fear = Thrill = Tedium

There has to be fear of loss, it has to equal the thrill of success, but it has to balance with the tedium of the grind.

If any of those get out of balance you end up killing the whole thing.

To much grind, the game becomes tedious and not fun, because you spend MORE time grinding than looking for thrills.

To much fear and you will never want to grind in fear of just losing what you grinded for.

To much thrill, and why bother with anything else, you will burn out like a meth addict.

Thats the Problem Mate.
There is NO Good Unrestricted PvP Sandbox MMOs.
Because Unrestricted PvP makes it Impossible for a Game to Survive.

Life is Feudal your Own is not an MMO.
And much less Unrestricted PvP.
Its Restricting PvP extremely heavily in Fact by simply allowing Servers to be Private or Non PvP. Thus creating Safezones for PvE Players that way.
After all how are you going to get the Sheep that just made their own Server where you cannot even Join


In a Game were you take Old School Exp and Item Losses.
Open World PvP is practically a Death Sentence to any Game if its not tremendously Restricted.


Mortal Online is not Successful by the way lol.
Seriously that Game might not be entirely Dead yet.
But their Total Player Base is not even 5000 People. They cant Finance a Proper Dev Team thus taking 1-2 Years for Updates by now.




As for the last list.
I have never heard of these.
If you want some Successful Games.

Black Desert Online and Arch Age for example are Softcore PvP Sandbox MMOs.
And Black Desert Online has more Players than all PvP Sandbox MMOs together while Archage is still 3-4 times the Population of Mortal Online.



Also I never heard of that strange Cycle nor does it make any Sense.
No Offence but again your practically basing the entire Game only on the Wolves Viewpoint. And the Wolves are Generally the smallest Niche of Players.

Mortal Online is by now in the Final Stadium. It has only Wolves.
And thats exactly where this Cycle you Name has been leading too.

Sorry Mate.
But nothing changes this Fact.
RPKs and Griefers Decimate all of the Remaining Playerbase. And if they are not kept under Control by Game Mechanics they will soon be the only Faction left.

In Fact even with the Bark Box Exploit being Removed.
They are still much too unchecked in this Game.
And I hope that further Restrictions will be Placed in the Future.

But its clearly a Step in the Right Direction.

[Hodo]

Mortal Online is not Successful by the way lol.
Seriously that Game might not be entirely Dead yet.
But their Total Player Base is not even 5000 People. They cant Finance a Proper Dev Team thus taking 1-2 Years for Updates by now.




As for the last list.
I have never heard of these.
If you want some Successful Games.

Black Desert Online and Arch Age for example are Softcore PvP Sandbox MMOs.
And Black Desert Online has more Players than all PvP Sandbox MMOs together while Archage is still 3-4 times the Population of Mortal Online.

This tells me right here that you are a "young" gamer. Never hearing of Star Wars Galaxies, aka SWG or Dark Age of Camelot.

And then you throw two horrible asian MMO themeparks that try to say they are sandbox games... no they are sandbox lite. They let you go anywhere, but they are still theme parks. They hold your hand through 5 million quests and you are heavily restricted on what you can do and where you can go.

Of course those two games have more population than Mortal Online, hell MO is what 10 years old. Archage is what 3... maybe 4. BDO is maybe 2, and its population has dropped to 1/3rd of what it was a launch... and drops EVERY day.

No where did I say LiF:YO was a MMO... so not sure where that came from.


Oh and FYI, I am not a wolf... I am a sheepdog. I like PVP, but I also like PVE, and building things.

[sunleader]

Mortal Online is not Successful by the way lol.
Seriously that Game might not be entirely Dead yet.
But their Total Player Base is not even 5000 People. They cant Finance a Proper Dev Team thus taking 1-2 Years for Updates by now.




As for the last list.
I have never heard of these.
If you want some Successful Games.

Black Desert Online and Arch Age for example are Softcore PvP Sandbox MMOs.
And Black Desert Online has more Players than all PvP Sandbox MMOs together while Archage is still 3-4 times the Population of Mortal Online.

This tells me right here that you are a "young" gamer. Never hearing of Star Wars Galaxies, aka SWG or Dark Age of Camelot.

And then you throw two horrible asian MMO themeparks that try to say they are sandbox games... no they are sandbox lite. They let you go anywhere, but they are still theme parks. They hold your hand through 5 million quests and you are heavily restricted on what you can do and where you can go.

Of course those two games have more population than Mortal Online, hell MO is what 10 years old. Archage is what 3... maybe 4. BDO is maybe 2, and its population has dropped to 1/3rd of what it was a launch... and drops EVERY day.

No where did I say LiF:YO was a MMO... so not sure where that came from.


Oh and FYI, I am not a wolf... I am a sheepdog. I like PVP, but I also like PVE, and building things.

Hahahahah
Young Gamer hmm.
I.ll take that as an Compliment.
What Guild have you been in Tibia ?

And no Mate.
Mortal will never really Revive unless they drop the Unrestricted PvP Bullcrab.
Because it will never get any Decent Playerbase if any New Players just leave the Starting Location and get Killed.



And Mate no Offense.
But Sandbox is measured by Options.
Not by having a Tutorial or Quests.

Not having Quests to Teach Players how the Game works is just bad Design.
Its not making a Game any less Sandbox.
Because Sandbox only means you have Sand to Play with.


And Mate.
Mortal never had these Numbers either.
Even this Game which is pretty Good in General does not have these Numbers.

I would actually take Bets.
If they made an PvE Oriented Server.
Where PvP is only Possible if your at least 100m away from any Personal or Guild Claim unless its JH

This Server would be an Incredible Success having 3-5 times the Population that the current PvP Server has.


Edit:
Mate the Shepherd and Wolf dont care about liking PvP or liking Building.
Its about your Philosophy on PvP.

A Shepherd Dog Attacks only other PvPers and Criminals.
He does never Attack people at Random and/or without Reason.

Wolves Attack for Loot and or for the Fun of it. And they dont care if their Targets are PvPers or have done anything wrong.

[Hodo]

Hahahahah
Young Gamer hmm.
I.ll take that as an Compliment.
What Guild have you been in Tibia ?

And no Mate.
Mortal will never really Revive unless they drop the Unrestricted PvP Bullcrab.
Because it will never get any Decent Playerbase if any New Players just leave the Starting Location and get Killed.

And Mate.
Mortal never had these Numbers either.
Even this Game which is pretty Good in General does not have these Numbers.

I would actually take Bets.
If they made an PvE Oriented Server.
Where PvP is only Possible if your at least 100m away from any Personal or Guild Claim unless its JH

This Server would be an Incredible Success having 3-5 times the Population that the current PvP Server has.

Uh... Tibia? really, never played it. Looks bad. I was a blacksmith in the original UO pre-Trammel, I just made armor and tools for mid-range players.

In SWG-Pre-Cu I was a bounty hunter. Didnt have a guild.

Mortal Online, I am Aegis Imperium. And STILL am AI.
And MO had a great population twice... once on release, it was actually about the same size is as this maybe a little larger population wise. And then on Steam release.

Both were failures not because of PKers or PVP, but because of server stability issues, and game bugs.

[lejoparden011]

THE BAN HAMMER HAVE SPOKEN!!!!

[sunleader]

Hahahahah
Young Gamer hmm.
I.ll take that as an Compliment.
What Guild have you been in Tibia ?

And no Mate.
Mortal will never really Revive unless they drop the Unrestricted PvP Bullcrab.
Because it will never get any Decent Playerbase if any New Players just leave the Starting Location and get Killed.

And Mate.
Mortal never had these Numbers either.
Even this Game which is pretty Good in General does not have these Numbers.

I would actually take Bets.
If they made an PvE Oriented Server.
Where PvP is only Possible if your at least 100m away from any Personal or Guild Claim unless its JH

This Server would be an Incredible Success having 3-5 times the Population that the current PvP Server has.

Uh... Tibia? really, never played it. Looks bad. I was a blacksmith in the original UO pre-Trammel, I just made armor and tools for mid-range players.

In SWG-Pre-Cu I was a bounty hunter. Didnt have a guild.

Mortal Online, I am Aegis Imperium. And STILL am AI.
And MO had a great population twice... once on release, it was actually about the same size is as this maybe a little larger population wise. And then on Steam release.

Both were failures not because of PKers or PVP, but because of server stability issues, and game bugs.

The Server Issues are True.
But if you Check Steam Revies and also Reports from Players you notice that this was not why most People Left.

Most People Left because of the Basic Experience that every New Player in Mortal makes within the First Few Hours.
Which is that People RPK you over and over the moment you dare stepping outside of the Town or even inside Town if they can :P

Take no Offense Mate.
But you see.
If you come into a Game. And First thing that happens is that you get RPKed when you Step out into the World.
Then Chances are that this Person will think to himself.
Erm yeah Sure. Screw this Crab Game. I am out.

In Mortal this happened straight away.
People came into the Game.
And most of em were Killed on Day 1 often not even realizing what the hell happened.
Take a guess how good of an Advertising for the Game that was.



Going back to your Sheep and Wolf example.
The thing that Wolves for some reason Fail to Realize. Is that Sheep are an Natural Ressource like a Forest.
And so they want to have access to that ressource everywhere and anywhere and take as much as they possibly can as fast as they possibly can.
And just like with a forest. If you just keep cutting it down for the Wood without making sure that some parts of the forest aint touched and without making sure that you dont cut it down faster than the forest regrowths.

Then sooner or later the Forest will be Gone and you get no Wood at all anymore :P
And once the Wood is gone. So are the Jobs in the Lumberjack Industry. Thus the Shepherd Dogs and Wolves leave as well.





Also. Tibia is just an pretty old MMO.
Came out roughly a Year before Ultima Online.