Life is Feudal Official Forum

[Proximo]

The way you've explained it on paper is amazing. For many people it will make or break the game for them. Can't wait to see in-depth gameplay of how it works and better yet get my hands on it.

Many people I've talked to are skeptical about how your going to make such a great system work in an open world MMO where developers in the past have had less than perfect results in much lesser schemes.

Every game to date that involves directional melee combat, Chivalry, Warband, Wotr and even something as old a Rune share great flaws.

Chivalry is the only thing that contains stamina at all but they failed to put in damage based off physical momentum of the actual weapon. In all 3 games you can hit people over your shoulder where you blade is primed to swing for full damage.

Games that don't contain stamina enable players to use ridiculous movements and basically skate around like in Warband.

Wotr tried and with the proper balancing probably could have had something good. The way the game currently is balanced is just ridiculous sometimes. 1 shotting people in the head with blunt weapons with little to know wind up. Slicing through plate with very fast axes and I have no idea why they made weapons break so easy.

Overall the biggest problem I find with all of these games is the speed of weapons. Every single game increases the speed it takes to wind up and complete a swing exponentially. For some reason devs make two handed weapons extremely fast to make up for the lack of skill people have. I hate the fact that a guy can swing a 4-5 foot piece of steel from right to left faster than a guy can stab with a 1 foot shortsword in most games.

Anyways I really want your physics based combat to be as great as possible. I want skill at arms to be prominent and not have it turn into a spam fest. I am looking forward to seeing your gameplay of combat so much I really really need you to make it work.

Based off what I've read this game could be the best game ever. I wish you all the luck in the world to make it right.

[Bobik]

Thank you for your kind words and that you keep faith in us
Actually I do understand and agree in all things that you had mentioned. Maybe some flaws will be hard to avoid (skating like in Rune or M&B), but we will discourage them by game mechanics. Other flaws are already or will be dealt with. But I agree that it is very important part of game and also it is very sensible and demands most of tuning and balancing.
Let us get a melee system prototype ready and after that we will be able to test it out with internal/closed alpha testers. But that does not mean that we won't make changes even after that

[Proximo]

Yes it will no doubt be a continuous effort for the games entire life.

All I can do is use words to try and support the game for now so no need to thank me. I've played with many communities in games that share an interest with yours. I guarantee many people will come and play your game if it turns out like you have said.

[MiguelSnake]

I have a question, i've seen directional attacks, but nothing about directional blocking.
I know that you can block, but i didn't find if you can block every direction with a single buttom, or you have to block for each direction.

[Bobik]

Blocking and parrying will be done with a single button without any direction. But for most effective parrying you should face a vector of attack. So if you see that enemy's sword is approaching from your left, you should press RMB and turn your character to the left.
The less angle between his vector of attack and your directional vector - the more effective parrying will be.

[MiguelSnake]

thanks for the answer! but what about attacks from up to down, and stabs? will your sword turn horizontal?

[BartusPL]

And what about fight at a distance?
How many shoot need to kill unarmed character?
2, 3 or more in chest?
1 or more in head?
What will be the difference in the inflicted injuries, from bow(short and long), crossbow(heavy and light), javelins?

[Bobik]

And what about fight at a distance?
How many shoot need to kill unarmed character?
2, 3 or more in chest?
1 or more in head?
What will be the difference in the inflicted injuries, from bow(short and long), crossbow(heavy and light), javelins?

Will be decided later, but surely there will be no one hit kills. That is MMORPG after all, not your multiplayer battle arena where death is just a few seconds timer.

[BartusPL]

And what about fight at a distance?
How many shoot need to kill unarmed character?
2, 3 or more in chest?
1 or more in head?
What will be the difference in the inflicted injuries, from bow(short and long), crossbow(heavy and light), javelins?

Will be decided later, but surely there will be no one hit kills. That is MMORPG after all, not your multiplayer battle arena where death is just a few seconds timer.

That's bad. 2 or more shoot in unarmed head from heavy crossbow or longbow is too much. It's decreace value of crossbowman on battlefield. Bowman can shoot fast, and it's not a big problem for him, but crossbowman will had problem's...

[Bobik]

Try to think from other side. Your xbow will be preloaded, so you just can jump on anyone naked and shoot him in the face in no time without a single chance for him to react. We don't want one hit kills for sure, but neither we want those battles to become ridiculously long.

[Arrakis]

Try to think from other side. Your xbow will be preloaded, so you just can jump on anyone naked and shoot him in the face in no time without a single chance for him to react. We don't want one hit kills for sure, but neither we want those battles to become ridiculously long.

Yeah it would be kinda retarded to pull 10 headshots without any significant effect, there would be no realism there at all

[BartusPL]

Try to think from other side. Your xbow will be preloaded, so you just can jump on anyone naked and shoot him in the face in no time without a single chance for him to react. We don't want one hit kills for sure, but neither we want those battles to become ridiculously long.

You can make a few thing's for crossbow(heavy):

1. High damage 80poin's, accuracy 85 point's(let's say 100 is perfect), one hit to kill in head(without metal helmet). For example 100hhp -80- headshot bonus= dead. One reload per 20 sec. All in 100 point skill. Skill don't change damage in crossbow, but You can't use the best one with 20 point skill.
2. Medium damage 60, accuracy 87, reload 18sec.
It' give us more than one shot in head, and two shot in chest.
3. Damage 45, accuracy 90(i think it's max). Reload 17 sec.
Two shot in face, three in chest.

You must remember, you cant run with reloaded crossbow. You caan lost your bolt, becaus there is noting to hold this in right place. You can't use finger's for these becaus you can lost them.
Long reload, not perfect accuracy, and prepering bolt( if you run with reloaded crossbow) can make balanced gameplay.
Nice if You can make system damaga with active penalty. If distance is greater then less damage. Let's say the best damaga for crossbow is 40 meter's, if more than less damage.

[Telakh]

Xbows pros:
1. More presize in aiming than a bow.
2. Heavier bolt is much more deadlier. Even if it does not penetrate your helmet, you will have your neck broken for sure.

Cons:
1. They are more complicated and expensive. in craft (comparing to simple longbow),
2. Firing speed is significantly slower though firing a bow is much more exausiting, especialy when you hold the string.
3. They are heavier, that makes heavy xbow not quite suitable for skirmish.

[BartusPL]

Xbows pros:
1. More presize in aiming than a bow.
2. Heavier bolt is much more deadlier. Even if it does not penetrate your helmet, you will have your neck broken for sure.

Cons:
1. They are more complicated and expensive. in craft (comparing to simple longbow),
2. Firing speed is significantly slower though firing a bow is much more exausiting, especialy when you hold the string.
3. They are heavier, that makes heavy xbow not quite suitable for skirmish.

About pros:
1. Yes , and if you show how to use these, simple peasant can kill a knight. Beter skill's should increase reload speed, not damage like in longbow.
2. Yes on some distance, if distance is greater, power of the missile is less.
Armor should have chance for ricochet. If armor is beter, and beter made this chance is greater.
You bolt hit in target and has ricochet, or not, if not penetrate armor or bounce off. Penetrate decrease hhp, bounce off can scathe you'r armor but nothing more because under armor knight have usualy gambeson. Ricochete can scrathe your armor. Damaged armor is usele's, because hampered you'r move.
Armor made from gambeson, mail, skin or fur can't stop arrow or bolt.

About Cons:
1. Yes, used by mercenary. But there is still simple crossbow made from wood. It's can't penetrate armor but it's still easy to use, and can kill "not-tank". Differences between the bow and crossbow such that simple bow can make all, but simple crossbow can make only craftsman.
2. No, bolt and arrow fly for diferently arch, and this is difference. Crossbow is faster, especialy heavy one, but losing fast it's power.
3. Hmmm... you can run with strained bowstring, but can't run with reloaded bolt, you can miss it somewhere. Still bowman can run and have everything on the right position, but he must use his muscle to strain bowstring if he run long he's can't do that.

All have some drawback's:
-Shortbow, can't penetrate armor, and some less armor too. Medium range, still need some skill.
-Lightcrossbow, can't penetrate armor. Low range, easy to use. You can aim you target what long you want. More accuracy, but still slower in reload than bow.
-Longbow, can penetrate armor(max 30/40 meter's), long range, need skill to use. Fast prepare to shoot.
-Heavy crossbow,can penetrate armor(longer distance than longbow), medium range, long reload time, more accuracy than bow. Not losing stamina when you aim, need many stamina to strain bowstring(you have some tools for that but crossbow have more lb than bow).
In open fielld crossbowman don't have a chance to win if he don't have mate with shield or just shield staked in front of him.

[Telakh]

I was speaking about fire frequence actualy. Bow fire is just "pull and release" while crossbow takes time to reload though it allows to aim carefuly.

And bowman can't hold bow string strained and of course he can't run this way if it takes 50-100 kilogramms to fully pull a string and it takes exactly the same effort to hold it strained. I am speaking of a strong bow, not a twig. Only mordern hi-tech block-system bows take no effort to hold a string yet you have to pull them first. An average archer can fire 10-15 arrows during short period of time before he gets exausted. Only a crossbowman can perform that although, as you have mentioned, bows are fast to prepare and shoot.

You can go to a gym and try to pull and hold such weight with 1 hand repeatedly so that you could imagine the effort for a longbow. =)

And 1 more thing to mention. While crossbow is easier to aim, arrows are more presise than bolts because they are longer and are better stabilized.

[Proximo]

Since there is no ability to heal instantly having ranged weapons not kill in 1 hit is fine. Wounding is a prominent mechanic in the game so you can whittle away at people giving you more of an advantage.

In games like mount and blade there is no angle of projectile vs angle striking armour. This leads to near misses or scraping shots register as head shots even if your wearing a steel helmet. In most games shots will penetrate armour no matter what and the only thing that changes is the damage received because it's easier to do.

This is a MMO so there won't be insta-death obviously. Either way I support projectiles not doing ridiculous amounts of damage. I'm sick and tired of being killed from being shot in the foot .

[BartusPL]

Problem is, how it's be good for player's, and gameplay. I don't know what all think, but I come here because i see on first page" hardcore medieval MMO". For My hardcore is one shot from cossbow or bow in unarmed head from short distance, and chance for ricochet when I shoot in plate armor.
Same overhead from two handed axe or maul in head shoul ended death or knockin out too.
When I play in Roma Victor I see somehing nice for My, all people can died fast and lost all, they know it, and don't waste they live in stupid fight for a nice boot's or something like that.
If some one hit you first in chest on the battlefield from a spear or another weapon's, it's signal for you to run(if it's not kill you or knocket out), because you can bleeading and you don't have chance to survive.

[BeastSVK]

This could beat Mount and Blade, Chivalry, War of the roses only if combat will have directional attacks and blocks..but i was reading somewhere that developers dont want directional blocks and this can be the point what will just made this game not so sucsessful as it could be with full potential of combat

[Telakh]

This is a frist person view"total-war" simulator first of all, not "mortal combat". Who cares about your virtual fighting skills if you can't fight in formation. And for this purpose, directional block described by bobik will be more than sufficient.

[Antiblitz]

..............realism talk at every corner. People want this game to be as brutal and unplayable as possible for the sake of realism, such a shame.


Chivalry's combat system was horrible, all about timing and latency, was way too arcady, meant to appeal to CoD kids. Not even worth mentioning really, it has no weight as a "medieval simulator" as everyone wants this to be.

War of the Roses was also on the same bandwagon. Allowing players to one shot people with crossbows, hammers, and 2 handed weapons, it was an atrocity to play. Punishing people for good behavior like blocking well, by breaking your weapons after too many blocks. There was no balance whatsoever.

But all these have common values, that of which is they are meant to be played in the same style of game. An arena based game, with low latency, of which, this will not be. This is an MMO and needs to be treated as such.

[Bobik]

[BartusPL]

I don't want a realistic simulation. I Want fight like in MO or shorter, but with some change's, taken from realistic medieval battle's and weapon's.
In MO naket player have too hard skin to kill him. I don't like bow shooting system too.

Ok, let's live it. First alfa show Us(not all, but maybe some video from alfa show US) what Dev Team made, then We can speak about change's.

[BartusPL]

About wiki and Combat:
http://lifeisfeudal.gamepedia.com/Combat

Why piercing damage is "Not so effective against unarmored/lightly armored characters.(...)"?
What does it mean?
If I have sword with sharpen blade(piercing damage) and thrust:
-Character A with plate armor
-Character B with padded armor
Character B take less dmage than Character A?

[Dailato]

About wiki and Combat:
http://lifeisfeudal.gamepedia.com/Combat

Why piercing damage is "Not so effective against unarmored/lightly armored characters.(...)"?
What does it mean?
If I have sword with sharpen blade(piercing damage) and thrust:
-Character A with plate armor
-Character B with padded armor
Character B take less dmage than Character A?

I could maybe see that being the case with arrows... but for the most part I think it means that piercing damage is reduced less by the heavier armour, respective to it's higher armour value, not respective to the absolute end-value.


E.G. piercing damage vs. light: 100 piercing damage vs. plate: 60 piercing damage

slashing damage vs. light: 100 slashing damage, vs. plate: 40 slashing damage.

If piercing damage was as effective against light armour as slashing damage then you'd expect it to be doing 150 damage, rather than 100. I think that's what it means.

[Bobik]

Once again, thank you Dailato for your accurate vision of our game and preaching of it on our forums

[Siegbert]

Chivalry's combat system was horrible, all about timing and latency, was way too arcady, meant to appeal to CoD kids.

I actually found Chivalry's combat to be pretty pleasing once you figured out all the tricks. However it's basically unplayable with 32+ players because of lag and lack of safety in combat. Combo spamming with your 2h sword basically does the deal with the noobs.

But all these have common values, that of which is they are meant to be played in the same style of game. An arena based game, with low latency, of which, this will not be. This is an MMO and needs to be treated as such.

Well, since I know no example of an MMO that actually did the combat right just once, I think we should appeal to other games that did.
M&B Warband is the best choice so far when it comes to large battle combat imo. It's pretty lag free up to 150 players, skillful but quite easy to learn. You can approach a big fight with your shield raised and not get any hit while playing defensive.
I think this is vital in order to not be frustrated by constantly dying without knowing why or how to prevent it. You should always have your safe little space which you can leave if you want to play more aggressive at the risk of dying.

[Dailato]

lots of words

The combat system is similar to a slightly simplified version of the M&B combat system. There's directional attacks, and physics based damage calculation.
But blocking isn't directional (IIRC:you have to manually turn your character so the sword or shield intercepts the opponents weapon, the better you're turned towards the blow, the less damage it does.) and IIRC there is no parrying or feinting(due to lag constraints).

Shields block arrows in the area they cover, though I'm not sure on the amount of penetration that crossbows or such can achieve. You can still "shoot the foot" though, as in M&B.

I don't think there will be such a thing as "Safety in combat" but you can surely play melee combat in different styles of defensiveness or offensiveness, and there are melee-combos similar to chivalry (e.g. side-swipe, overhead, thrust) that will let you do more damage if executed well.

Hope that answers your questions about the combat system. The actual "experience" of the system is, well, unknown, the game isn't even in alpha yet

[BartusPL]

I could maybe see that being the case with arrows... but for the most part I think it means that piercing damage is reduced less by the heavier armour, respective to it's higher armour value, not respective to the absolute end-value.


E.G. piercing damage vs. light: 100 piercing damage vs. plate: 60 piercing damage

slashing damage vs. light: 100 slashing damage, vs. plate: 40 slashing damage.

If piercing damage was as effective against light armour as slashing damage then you'd expect it to be doing 150 damage, rather than 100. I think that's what it means.

Ok it's simple, and nice, but We have hire some special weapon's like axe's, pick's, mace. All these weapon's is not heavy, and not so fast, but the place where the strike is, is very heavy. Simple mass and velocity don't give Us good result. There is some special flag for weapon's like these? Especially I mean the axe. Blade is sharpened, but this weapon's is not for cuting, it's for hacking.

[Thokan]

and IIRC there is no parrying or feinting(due to lag constraints).

The wiki does mentions parrying, as in blocking with a weapon.

http://lifeisfeudal.gamepedia.com/Melee

"Parry effectiveness depend on how well you have turned your body towards weapon movement direction. Parry as a way to interrupt combos, rather then just to lower amount of incoming damage. Successful parry might give you an increased speed for a next attack (riposte)"

As stated, much alike the simple and intuitive system ofour beloved M&B.