Hoshi's Armor meta design

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Hoshiqua
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Hoshi's Armor meta design

Post by Hoshiqua » 29 Dec 2015, 22:49

Hey !

Do you guys remember that huge file I had written ? A full design of LiF's combat system, how I think it should be in all of its aspects.

Well, now that I think about it, it wasn't a great idea to write one, huge thing that I hurried to finish up. Most of the important points were not very thought-through for you readers, and the whole thing was just too long to read.

So I'm going to start writing individual files for game's aspects (not only about combat now, I think) and how I think they could be made even better.

Enough writing here, I must get back to writing in the file itself ! In this one I talk about how I think the armors 'meta' should be designed, in general. Know that this file will contain no exact values for tweaks or anything, or maybe as an example. What I write about are whole concepts, if that makes sense.

Here is the link ..

https://docs.google.com/document/d/16yq ... sp=sharing

It is finished ! It wasn't long to write in the end. But since Google Drive allows it, I will surely bring modifications to it for clearer explanations, and maybe better ideas !

Enjoy the read ;)


Hoshiqua
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Re: Hoshi's Armor meta design

Post by Hoshiqua » 30 Dec 2015, 17:00

No feedbacks ? :P


Hoshiqua
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Re: Hoshi's Armor meta design

Post by Hoshiqua » 31 Dec 2015, 12:00

I created a suggestion on the suggestion page with the exact same post. Upvote if you like ;)


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Re: Hoshi's Armor meta design

Post by Qbix- » 31 Dec 2015, 13:22

I think the way armor works now is correct. Alltho you say leather armor isn't pricey, yet the 90 one costs the most imho with the 288 woolpacks required, not too mention the thick leather.

I do agree the full plate one was very expensive @ the time, and they should increase the costs too make it harder too get...


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Re: Hoshi's Armor meta design

Post by Hoshiqua » 31 Dec 2015, 13:34

288 woolpack ? I didn't know that, it's been some time since I used heavy leather. Those prices can always be tweaked, and this one in particular should be ! x)


Hoshiqua
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Re: Hoshi's Armor meta design

Post by Hoshiqua » 10 Jan 2016, 16:52

BUMP

I have documented myself some more about the armor types, and since this meta's goal is to get as close to reality as possible, some things are going to be changed ! Mainly the padded armor :)


Hoshiqua
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Re: Hoshi's Armor meta design

Post by Hoshiqua » 13 Jan 2016, 22:54

Is anyone actually interested in this ? :D

I write those things for a reason : to try and change the game in a, according to me, better way. However, I'm not going to present any design to Bobik if it hasn't been criticized at all, or at least debated about.

If you guys want a short summary of it, just say so. The only thing that scares me if I do that is that there could be some misunderstandings and good points missing for and against this design.

If the problem is the topic, then I'd gladly take in suggestions as to what needs thinking and writing about :D


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Re: Hoshi's Armor meta design

Post by Moyer » 14 Jan 2016, 08:25

I like your stark attempts at introducing extended realism into the game play, yet I have found many players running around in piecemeal sets of armor due to lack of resources or skills, which would validate the concept that "Resources have scarcity".

The point you make about plate being used by everyone compared to your perception that is was scarce (see: munition armour) coupled with the idea of rusting (shall we simulate acting as a squire, drying off our armor every morning lag), in my opinion, bogs down game play.

Is it not enough to acquire enough high quality thick hides, have a person with high skill in Procuration process them into thick leather , gather high quality iron, smelt it, and have a person with 90+ in Armor Smithing to produce just one set of Full Plate? How far down the rabbit hole do we go on the acquisition and repair mechanics of armors in general? Rather, would not leather and padded armor crack and age due to temperature and humidity?

For me, the question does not lie on the realistic aspects insofar as how to modify further what is already created for the game, but rather, "Does the current system actually warrant any change?"

I already have fun with the PvP mechanics, and somewhat enjoy the grind if my last set of plate is lost in battle. But to simulate drying, oiling, and shining my set every morning lag (or other metric used)? No thanks!


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Re: Hoshi's Armor meta design

Post by Aryk » 14 Jan 2016, 15:15

I also disagreed in your prior posts. I admire your enthusiasm, but you keep coming back and your idea just does not work in game. You can not just make it more expensive as compensation for plate being really OP, it just increases the grind but most will have it and it further widens the gap between poor and rich, which is NOT good for a open world full loot pvp game. I agreed with almost everything Bobik said countering your points in your live stream with him. Armor should be play style preferences in a game, which is how it is now. I am not saying the current state is perfect, but only minor tweaks are needed rather than the overhaul you are requesting over and over.

People are not responding because we are tired of you constantly trying to force your opinion through. We have all argued in your many other threads.


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Re: Hoshi's Armor meta design

Post by Hoshiqua » 14 Jan 2016, 18:40

People are not responding because we are tired of you constantly trying to force your opinion through. We have all argued in your many other threads.
:cry: :cry: :cry:

Ya, so tiring, I know right ? With your total of two posts it really does look like you got loads of debate with me in the past.

Know that I am not, and will never try to "force" my opinion through. What people say about my ideas matter a lot, and know this also.. I make my ideas extremely different from the current game's path so that people can better understand the concepts.

But in the end, all I have to your kind of people is, please stay polite and civilized. If you do not wish to take 5 minutes of your life to read or debate about my ideas then nobody cares and nobody will force you.

You can not just make it more expensive as compensation for plate being really OP, it just increases the grind but most will have it and it further widens the gap between poor and rich, which is NOT good for a open world full loot pvp game


Of course ! Of course.. what did I expect ? You didn't read it, did you ?

Armor should be play style preferences in a game


/ Anti flamer mode off
/ Debater mode on

Perhaps, that's what a lot of people think and that is how games have been designed for a very long time.

But you should try and imagine the benefits of my concept. You can hardly do that since you didn't read the file, but it isn't made to "break gameplay for more realism" like you seem to be suggesting.

Beside, it is not in any way realistic. Armor does determine how you fight, but only to an extent. With the same skill in let's say, all martial arts, a heavy armored opponent will usually have the advantage. And that's something I'd like to see in the game for better integration of socio-economic part of the world into war. Just read the file, I'm too tired to write everything here.

The point you make about plate being used by everyone compared to your perception that is was scarce (see: munition armour) coupled with the idea of rusting (shall we simulate acting as a squire, drying off our armor every morning lag), in my opinion, bogs down game play.


Not sure I understood that first sentence.. I didn't say plate was used by everyone in history, on the contrary !

Munition armor is any kind of armor that is mass produced. In the late middle ages, plate armor was certainly not mass produced. It came later in the renaissance period; which is out of the game's chronological boundary.


I already have fun with the PvP mechanics, and somewhat enjoy the grind if my last set of plate is lost in battle. But to simulate drying, oiling, and shining my set every morning lag (or other metric used)? No thanks!

"Rusting", like I say shortly after that, is a mere example of how we could get the best armors to be expensive to own, as to prevent the mass production and then mass equipping of it over time. But it doesn't matter, concept does. I've only taken time to think about a basic solution so people understand the point.

Is it not enough to acquire enough high quality thick hides, have a person with high skill in Procuration process them into thick leather , gather high quality iron, smelt it, and have a person with 90+ in Armor Smithing to produce just one set of Full Plate? How far down the rabbit hole do we go on the acquisition and repair mechanics of armors in general? Rather, would not leather and padded armor crack and age due to temperature and humidity?


To make it expensive ? Sure it is ! Maybe not enough if it really does become very very strong though. But as I say in the file, simple, one time crafting price can be set as high as you want - it will only delay the inevitable, which is increase in the number of sets in circulation because of trade and full loot, and then ownership by all players eventually.

I do believe that cheap armors will just be remade when they decay / break.

For me, the question does not lie on the realistic aspects insofar as how to modify further what is already created for the game, but rather, "Does the current system actually warrant any change?"


Given the early state of the game and its moddability (and thus edit-ability by the devs), I'd say yes !

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Re: Hoshi's Armor meta design

Post by Azzerhoden » 14 Jan 2016, 19:29

Haven't really looked as I haven't really been active in the game. I have noticed though that bows and xbows have had their damage modified so that xbows seem to do more damage.

Also, wearing armor reduces the amount of damage inflicted. I hit someone in the head with a heavy xbow for 125 points of damage. Yet shooting someone wearing a scale helm only did 75.

I'd like to play around more with the various armor types - hit locations, and such. Full plate leggings have no armor on the back of the upper legs, so will a hit there do more damage?
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Re: Hoshi's Armor meta design

Post by Airco » 14 Jan 2016, 19:39

got hit in the nuts yesterday from a xbow whit no armor on , he did 102dam to my nutsack. was not amused
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Hoshiqua
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Re: Hoshi's Armor meta design

Post by Hoshiqua » 14 Jan 2016, 20:02

Haha poor nutsack :)

Armor values are not per individual parts by default, though I think you can change the values for each pieces via modding.

The way it works right now is that each armor type, and within them, each tier, has different "ratios" of protection against the 4 types of damage (slashing, piercing, blunt, siege). Those ratios are basically percentage divided by 100. So, for example, full plate has (I think) 0.92 protection ratio against slashing, so if the damage dealt is slashing damage, 92% of it will not be inflicted to the wearer.

This is a very limiting system, I find, because with that logic, you will always take damage whatever hits you, whatever protection you have. So unless there is a threshold where the damage dealt is rounded to 0, you could theorically kill a tank pilot by dropping chewed gums on the cannons. Just gotta drop a lot of them.

In my next file, about general combat mechanics, I'll introduce a more thought-through damage system that can be built using the current one and would change the way weapons are used against different types of armor quite a bit.

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Re: Hoshi's Armor meta design

Post by Laertes » 14 Jan 2016, 21:45

Aryk wrote:People are not responding because we are tired of ...

:shock: Maybe not many people responding but it takes some time to translate one sheed - and there are 11 of them (and I still haven´t finish Arrakis "Guide to Roleplay in LiF"). I think a lot of other Players have similar issues.

So don´t be disappointed, if it takes some time to get the debate rolling, the theme is quite interesting. Even if I´m not 100% coincident with your opinion, it IS worth to think about it.

So, go on with that. :good:
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Hoshiqua
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Re: Hoshi's Armor meta design

Post by Hoshiqua » 20 Jan 2016, 16:42

[...]
So, go on with that


Thank you, that's reheartening ;)

I just had another idea that could make heavy and better armor even more scarce (that's the goal right ? :D).

But first I wanted to ask your opinions about it before I add it to the document.

How about having the metal armor (scale, plate, and mail to a smaller extent) take a LOT more space ? Like, someone with 10 willpower will barely be able to equip a full set of plate with a weapon without being overburdened. A bit less so for scale, and far less so for mail since while it is a metal armor, it can be folded for better storage and doesn't impede movements related to working and carrying stuff as much.

That would have two consequences :

- Metal armor would be a pain to loot after a won battle. Unless the winning side planned it and brought carts to haul all of that back, most metal armors will just rot / rust / decay away before anyone is able to bring them back home, which adds to decreasing the number of them in circulation.

- Unless you had huge amounts of dedicated storage space, you couldn't really manufacture metal armor in massive quantity. Of course, that is unlikely to happen seeing the MANY products even a small village needs stored in order to function properly.


That allied with the fact that these armors will be expensive shit, people will probably have to have their own storage and their person(s) of trust to take care of it, which lowers kinda the percentage cap of players who can actually own ready-to-serve metal armors.

Those needs, merged with the price to buy and maintain, will add a more medieval feeling to the game - the creation of a kind of "knight class" of players dedicated to combat and the game itself even more, which would have a significant advantage on the battlefield. It makes historical accuracy, immersion and gameplay sense :

No matter the development of the world newbies arrive in, the more combat orientated players will have a social goal to strive for, which adds yet one more reason for people to stay. And given the low chances of encountering a threatening amount of people equipped like that outside of the battlefield, it won't make a significant number of people leave the game.


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Re: Hoshi's Armor meta design

Post by Rulant » 20 Jan 2016, 16:57

I agree that one HUGE thing when it comes to getting armors is that full plate is so much easier than heavy padded or leather to get. All it takes is metal and 3 thick leather which isn't hard to get once you have a few tanning tubs and drying racks.

Take the ease of getting the top plate armor and compare it to how hard it is to get top padded.

Full plate:
10 ingots
11 bars
3 thick leather
Best top tier armor defense.

Heavy padded:
8 linen cloth
18 hank of wool
6 thick leather
Worst top tier armor defense and 10x harder/more time consuming to craft.

I kind of like the idea of making plate armors REALLY heavy just for the sake of balancing out what people can wear/loot without making a character for that purpose. It should be heavier to carry but I think the current weight/speed you have while equipped is fine.

If they did that and made it a slight bit harder to craft but also increase defense on it by quite a bit to bashing/piercing to even out the increased difficulty to craft/wear that COULD be ok but it would need to be played around with in game to actually see what effect the changes would have.

Idk really just trying to throw my opinion in on the conversation.

Nerf bows.


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Re: Hoshi's Armor meta design

Post by Hoshiqua » 20 Jan 2016, 17:03

Actually, let me be clear : I'm not suggesting to make the armor HEAVIER, but just take more SPACE in inventory. It is already super heavy as it is. In case you didn't read the file, my meta is about leather < padded < mail < scale < plate in most cases, the betters armor being out of reach of most players for character and time dedication, wealth and 'in game social status' reasons. I'll let you read the interesting bits ;)

About armor prices.. padded is a LOT cheaper than plate, only not in early game. Metal can be accessed way quicker than large enough quantities of flax, because interestingly enough, it requires a lot less time to extract, process and use the iron simply because it doesn't take days to dig a mine.

But trust me, with a few dedicated farmers you just don't know what to do with the flax anymore. The meta aims to make padded armor the most common type so there would be a way to use it.

But yes, making plate more expensive even without my meta is a necessity. Maybe double / triple the price in iron.

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