Poisons Overhaul

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Toren
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Poisons Overhaul

Post by Toren » 15 Feb 2017, 03:05

So the way that poisons have always been in the game is either under powered or overpowered. A low quality poison is most likely useless against an opponent, regardless of which type it is. On the other hand, a high quality poison of any kind can be completely OP against an opponent that doesn't have antidotes or argggh, not to mention that the 30 second poison resistance on argggh doesn't work ever remotely right now. I know that poisons are locked behind the 90 equipment maintain skill, but as the devs have stated they want to make equipment maintain more important and valuable in the long run, so more people will most likely have access to poisons.

I would suggest changing the effects that poisons have to make them more tactical, especially in group fights. For example:

1) Make one poison capable of giving the opponent an effect similar to being drunk in the game. Depending on the quality, it would gradually increase the level of screen distortion like the 3 level different levels of being drunk in the game. If untreated, it could get to the max level of screen distortion, which is basically unplayable for pvp but not game ending. On the other hand, if treated by a lower quality antidote, it could just cap the poison at the first level of drunkenness, making it so that if the opponent has an antidote they still has to deal with some of the effects of the poison.

2) Create a poison that inverts the enemies controls for movement and attacks. This would be pretty devastating to someone who doesn't expect it and doesn't have an antidote, but not a one shot kill like high quality hard hp poisons.

3) Make one poison that jumbles the opponents words, making all war cries and unit and formation yells useless for the duration of the poison. This would allow for a tactical style of gameplay to take out enemy beserkers or unit leaders to hamper an enemy during a large scale fight.

4) Add a poison that "decreases the dexterity of the opponent" by either decreasing the effect of enemy melee combo attacks or preventing other skills like volley, piercing shot, etc.

I just think that the way poisons are in the game right now don't really add to the competitive setup the game has and really just force people to carry antidotes or suffer, which in both cases doesn't add to skilled game play the game purports to have.


Bh1
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Re: Poisons Overhaul

Post by Bh1 » 15 Feb 2017, 07:00

I agree with this.

Most of the poisons are useless, and it would be nice to see different poisons with different effects (Stun, slow down, blindness, perseverance loss...), which however not lead to the death

I would also like the same for potions with positive effects


Sharana
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Re: Poisons Overhaul

Post by Sharana » 15 Feb 2017, 12:04

Toren wrote:I just think that the way poisons are in the game right now don't really add to the competitive setup the game has and really just force people to carry antidotes or suffer, which in both cases doesn't add to skilled game play the game purports to have.


The point kind of.
It was a long "fight" to convince groups that that antidote is "standard issue item", that the alchemists always has large stock of them and it's everyone's own duty to always carry. Big groups kind of managed to enforce that mindset to their players thanks to use of poisons during regular training battles, because the enemy will use them as well.

The alchemist's main job and trading goods (outside of flax+naphta which are herbalism) are antidotes, restore soft hp potions and poisons. There were different suggestions submitted to them to buff the other potions as well, but other then duration increase (that at least made the restore soft hp viable) they didn't do much.
For example every time I leave the walls I check if I have 2 antidotes and 1 restore soft hp potion (to auto win battles vs mauls and other blunts) and grab some if I have none. If everyone was doing that there wouldn't be such a problem.

For the warcries - that's working as intended. They stop the poison, but they don't give you immunity window. Antidotes do, that makes them better.
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Toren
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Re: Poisons Overhaul

Post by Toren » 17 Feb 2017, 23:52

Sharana wrote:The alchemist's main job and trading goods (outside of flax+naphta which are herbalism) are antidotes, restore soft hp potions and poisons. There were different suggestions submitted to them to buff the other potions as well, but other then duration increase (that at least made the restore soft hp viable) they didn't do much.
For example every time I leave the walls I check if I have 2 antidotes and 1 restore soft hp potion (to auto win battles vs mauls and other blunts) and grab some if I have none. If everyone was doing that there wouldn't be such a problem.

For the warcries - that's working as intended. They stop the poison, but they don't give you immunity window. Antidotes do, that makes them better.


You see, thats kind of the issue. Either you have antidotes or you don't, so basically with higher Q poisons its either you're screwed or absolutely unharmed. It doesn't add anything to the game. Imagine an end game where everyone carries antidotes and knows when to use them. What is the point of even having poisons in the game? To kill freshies that don't have the resources to make antidotes without losing alignment.

My point is that poisons in their current form don't add anything to the game. They shouldn't be a guaranteed kill for people against people that don't have antidotes, but at the same time antidotes shouldn't be a get out of jail free card. It would be better if the devs found a healthy middle ground, and personally I would like to see poisons not damage HP or Stam but rather have alternative tactical effects that an antidote wouldn't instantly fix but would rather just lessen the effects of the poison, so that the poison would still influence the course of a battle but not as one of the main factors.

Several people I know have made other suggestions, like making hHp poisons not drain the actual health bar but rather just instantly kill an opponent that doesn't get treated by someone with 60 or 90 healing within like 5-10 mins. There is just so much the devs could do to make poisons a more dynamic part of combat rather than just leave them as such stale fight enders.

And arrggh does give you an effect for poison immunity, a 30 second poison resistance effect that does absolutely nothing for resisting poisons. If its a bug that the effect pops up then I guess it just needs to be fixed.


Sharana
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Re: Poisons Overhaul

Post by Sharana » 19 Feb 2017, 11:07

Last time I checked Arghh was supposed to only stop the current poison, but not protect you from following ones, forcing them to carry spare antidote as well.

As for he poisons themself - you need to be on foot and out of warstance to drink them. When lancers is poisoned he needs to stop, dismount, drink and get on the horse again. It's not so hard atm, but very soon (if not tomorrow) not only will it take longer to "jump" on the horse but there will be a timer, as the antidote is used in peace stance the guy will be out of the battle for 30 seconds. Same with someone on foot - 30 seconds receiving more damage as he is out of combat stance and can't deal damage himself.
Also the 3.0 poisons which are the "mass" ones like the tier 2 armors deal about 60hp I think, takes 3 poisons to kill my lancer with 160 to 170hp depending on the build. Not really a oneshot...
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Azzerhoden
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Re: Poisons Overhaul

Post by Azzerhoden » 19 Feb 2017, 19:01

Honestly - antidotes are needed by every player in the game. I've been bit by poisonous snakes much more often then been hit with a poisoned blade..... :shock:
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Some_Jerk
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Re: Poisons Overhaul

Post by Some_Jerk » 03 Mar 2017, 07:00

Toren wrote:I just think that the way poisons are in the game right now don't really add to the competitive setup the game has and really just force people to carry antidotes or suffer, which in both cases doesn't add to skilled game play the game purports to have.


I think you hit the nail on the head there, and I do agree with your points. I just don't see how they can really do anything to make poisons be anything but an "all or nothing" feature in this game, and I doubt they'll remove them.
What I think could make them fun to have in the game rather than problematic would be if they added a new weapon line for daggers, and instead of applying poison to a long one handed blade, you would only be able to apply them to the daggers. I think this would be much more interesting because the dagger would have a much shorter reach, but if it hit, it would be more deadly than most weapons. I also think quite a lot of players would enjoy trying to play an assassin role.

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