Life is Feudal Official Forum

[Zathurus]

I highly applaud your use of loss of loot and some skill when a player death occurs. Penalties for losing in combat, although adding some frustration, are motivators also. They keep the game fresh, and players alert. And to be a plate knight, you better be ready to win, since you can't run away faster.

I would like to add a suggestion, although you have probably already thought of this. Add length of time to loot to items(when in pvp and looting armor)

When looting an opponent in pvp, or if a pve creature is chewing up some of your items or supplies, add a 'time to loot' that is realistic, and or corpse dragging.

The reason for this, besides being realistic, (even with a can opener, getting that plate mail off of a corpse can take some time) it also allows allies to protect there fallen comrades from being looted.

It is also a realistic sociology of war, the defense of the fallen Commander at theopolis, all the way till today, where current militaries will engage in difficult situations to recover fallen comrades.

Although it will flood the chat channels with people asking for help when they die to keep there stuff, so be aware of that also, if such actions were added, it should be clearly noted that is part of the risk, not that people should expect assistance if they carelessly lose a melee combat.



Looking forward to the release, it seems you are building a game that will require some thought and skill, with both reward and risk.

And on the topic of the no targeting, it might be a good idea to also put 'realistic' movement speeds into combat actions. The actual amount of effort to circle around an opponent, is far more then that enemy rotating to keep a facing, although that is not always modeled and so many games become circling attackers.

Note armor should be an effect in that also. With turning in place, faster then the same knight in plate side step circling, a plate knight, can actually keep a facing with a leather armored foe, but a plate knight would have a difficult time side stepping around to the side of a leatherd foe without him moving.)

Dexterity stats are used in games to emulate that fact, and modifications to to hit rolls. The no targeting system moves some of that dexterity to the fingers of the player. and players aren't actually in the dexterity hindrence modeled in the game, so different movement speeds would make sense.

Since you are leaving that to player keyboard controls, modifications on 'movement speed' 'and rotation speed' based on hindrance and dexterity I would think would be a good idea.

It also has always been bothersome that in most games everyone runs the same speed, while some have heavy armor, and some are in cloth. Different speeds, even if only when 'in melee' (trying to flee) can add to a more realistic choice of armor, where having plate is more then only a better armor, but a more riskier armor when in the field alone. (although combat wounds would inhibit retreat, so every battle does not end with the guy in cloth running if he is losing.)

Figured I would add a couple ideas, that if you had not thought about them, could be something to consider (or ignore)

Zathurus

(On another note, your icon is not consistent, or it is incomplete with your game name. The Hammer and Sickle is building and reaping, the two sides, servants and soldiers, Life and Death, yet you name the game with only a life comment, and in contradiction since Sword and Sickle, would be Wars, and Death, only one side of the comment.) Although it is still both sides, with death side in icon, and life side in text. Although it feels a bit unbalanced.

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Added » 15 Apr 2014, 05:32
The mechanics of combat really are difficult.

For instance, how do you stop the problem that a fast guy with a bow, could always win against someone in heavier armor, by using shoot and move?

The act of shooting, would have to incur a 'movement penalty'

By having movement speed include inertia, so the guy charging the archer would run faster after continual running, the guy firing would move much slower when starting to run again.

And shields would be particularly effective when charging an archer one on one. Making archery a support weapon for others in melee, and if someone is outmatched at a 'ranged' vs 'ranged' battle, they would have to switch to charge and try melee

Really interesting formulas to both simulate realism, and balance, hence such games are fun things to think about.

Zathurus

[Siegbert]

I'd say players wearing plate mail and leather mail would be able to move at a comparable speed. I might drain more stamina though.

Archers shouldn't get away too easy. Wearing a bow or crossbow should slow you down as it would, also having a quiver equipped. If you would want to get away more quickly you'd had to toss away your bow first.

(On another note, your icon is not consistent, or it is incomplete with your game name. The Hammer and Sickle is building and reaping, the two sides, servants and soldiers, Life and Death, yet you name the game with only a life comment, and in contradiction since Sword and Sickle, would be Wars, and Death, only one side of the comment.) Although it is still both sides, with death side in icon, and life side in text. Although it feels a bit unbalanced.

Afaik hammer and sickle was just a depiction of different branches of work, as you said: building and reaping. The symbol of the German Democratic Republic also had a compass included to depict science, I think.
I find the LiF symbol to be a quite intelligent idea as it depicts the essence of medieval feudal society: peasantry and nobility. The former feeds society, the latter protects it.

[Zathurus]

I'd say players wearing plate mail and leather mail would be able to move at a comparable speed. I might drain more stamina though.

Really good plate could have joints that would be really fluid, but in reality, every joint would add some resistance to movement, although knights spent many hours training, the running and sidestepping speed of leather, or padded versus plate is significant, why all games give a dex penalty to plate.

I mostly made the comment because many tactics end up circling combat when there is no targeting, because both players want to get out of line of sight. (Mech warrior is a good example Years ago, In Star wars game, people would jump all over the map to get out of targeted line of sight, really was effective but not realistic.)

limiting some sidestepping would inhibit some of that.

Archers shouldn't get away too easy. Wearing a bow or crossbow should slow you down as it would, also having a quiver equipped. If you would want to get away more quickly you'd had to toss away your bow first.

I agree they should not be able to get away too often, although every person would still throw down a bow to retreat if they were about to melee in a losing situation.

Afaik hammer and sickle was just a depiction of different branches of work, as you said: building and reaping.


I find the LiF symbol to be a quite intelligent idea as it depicts the essence of medieval feudal society: peasantry and nobility. The former feeds society, the latter protects it.

The difference. Reap and build, Vs Reap and War. So for a war themed game, I can understand that. Probably "everyone must fight" comment again. I don't see a sword as a symbol of nobility in any way, maybe of knights, or military, but I understand your comment.

I think replacing 'building' with 'war' was the indicator that was odd. Although Afaik, The Sickle is already the symbol of protection, not of farming. Planting is farming, Sickle is reaping, or cutting down to be used for some other purpose, like bounty or looting.

The Sickle is 'taking' it is turning something ripe to some 'use' as you say, production to feed in the case you site, I can understand that but it is the death side of the farming cycle. So sword and sickle, that is war and death.

Although it does work for a themed game. And you really couldn't use the hammer and sickle as your emblem,
Although the sword and sickle feels wrong. Reminds me of the 'with us or against us' mentality of forever war.

But then again, the Hammer and sicle was never about feudal systems either, so that might be it also.

Not that it matters in any way, other then something to talk about.

And thanks for the reply.
And you do mention living in the title, and feudal systems are all war all the time, power determines who has anything in those systems, so maybe it is accurate., not much of a life for most though.

Anyways....

[Siegbert]

I think you put too much thought into this P

Well, the sword could be seen as a sign of nobility since it was only noblemen who were aloud to carry arms and it was their duty to protect their subjects who were working on their fields.

And you do mention living in the title, and feudal systems are all war all the time, power determines who has anything in those systems, so maybe it is accurate., not much of a life for most though.

Anyways....

Actually in ideal feudalism there would not be war at all as every lord received his land and title from a higher lord, the highest being the king. Above there would only be god.

In reality the rulers weren't able to keep peace within their realms because people are greedy or have other personal issues with each other and a king couldn't be everywhere at the same time.

[Zathurus]

I think you put too much thought into this P

Well, the sword could be seen as a sign of nobility since it was only noblemen who were aloud to carry arms and it was their duty to protect their subjects who were working on their fields.

It can be seen many ways, I don't disagree with your view, nor that you have a valid way to see it.

I am thinking of it more as three factions,
Administrators (nobels)
Enforcement
And common workers.

I do understand only officers carry swords, and ideas of sword as symbol of might.

The way I usually think about it is to have the sign of the Worker, and the sign of the Soldier, then also somewhere a star.

Although sometimes the form of the worker and soldier makes the star itself, as in heavy community ideas such as were the intent of the USSR.

But as you said, it is all something to think about. I did post a comment on factions, that is more game relevant, again something to think about.

Actually in ideal feudalism there would not be war at all as every lord received his land and title from a higher lord, the highest being the king. Above there would only be god.

In reality the rulers weren't able to keep peace within their realms because people are greedy or have other personal issues with each other and a king couldn't be everywhere at the same time.

The war becomes 'controlling the commoners, and against the commoners.

Instead of between nobles. As what currently occurs in what many call peaceful Feudal system like we have in the USA with the Corporations administering enforcement of law in many sectors, and without any enforcement oversight. Also why many groups say they should never attack one of there 'members' to maintain the society as a 'farming of the commoner' by a few that would be calling themselves nobles years ago

Hence the best societies move as much power as possible to the common people, as is the USA Constitution model.

Although Corporate governance wrecks that.

And commoner power was the Soviet model, although the same issues with money and power wanting to control had to be countered by a security state, and again it became feudal commissar under Communist Party Leaders.

So how far have we really advanced?

The big problem with the Feudal system is lack of rights and due process that can limit the overreach of monarchs that always occurs, since if it is not limited, injust occurs, then security state and finally revolutions occur.

Once the role of the monarch, or government is to administer protection of rights and due process for citizens, many of the problems are corrected, presuming the government does that much of government is to think they should be a vassals for some self proclaimed feudal lord.

Shrug, interesting topic though.

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Added » 15 Apr 2014, 13:16
The entire problem with Feudal and monarchy systems can be summed up by the current Corporate system.

Some person gets some infulence by some capability and assistance of better support.

They then create some system,

And in a few years people that took over those systems, start farming people, never learn anything, never earn anything, and never get any support. And the system itself is the reason they are successful, not any of there ability to run the system.

Because they were never suppose to be the administrators except by errors of them thinking there children have the same support as them, and then everything goes off the rails, as the actual administrators are outside of the administrative functions.

Why The USA had a revolution, why France did, and many other places, because the 'supported individuals' after a few generations were not the monarchs.

So I listen to music.

The Police - Wrapped Around Your Finger
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svWINSRhQU0

Someone that did not earn there role as an administer will never be able to find the needed information, nor the heart to actually administer a sustainable system, hence the system gets turned upside down every few years.

[Protunia]

Your weight will play a big factor.

Carrying to much stuff like tools etc ( Hoarding ) is going to slow you down. Heavy Armor will more than likely be slower than light armor.

As far as bows go the player has to stop and aim and pull back for a time before he can fire an arrow that should give some players a chance to run after them, but like I said if you are over burdened with stuff you will never catch some one who is not carrying a lot.

People who loot other players will have more STUFF so they will be slower the more they carry and be easier targets I would think.

As far as loot times?? meh I figure you have to open the body then grab the items off of them. AS far as loot timers go what are you talking about removing the armor from the body???

[Elindor]

100% agree about loot times for both balance and realism reasons...

Gloria Victis is doing this and it is one of the best new system improvements I have seen lately.

The silly grab bag that normally occurs when someone dies in PVP is game breaking. If someone kills you, it should take appropriate time to take things from you - certain things taking longer than others. And then the weight of those items should impact them. Basically, it shouldn't be easy to just run around killing and looting many players at a time - because of the time to loot them and the weight of their belongings. This would force players to make choices about what to take and what to leave, depending on the situation they were in.

Could even add items which make certain things harder to take - like a closing coin bag which adds time to looting coin from your corpse.

The worst thing in a full loot game - and something that happened all the time in Darkfall - is your friend dies and then you are trying to loot his stuff faster than the enemy can, and it's just a silly stupid grabbing fest. Time added to looting, and the ability to be interrupted when looting, would solve this and make the game much more playable for all parties, and much more realistic.

[Siegbert]

The worst thing in a full loot game - and something that happened all the time in Darkfall - is your friend dies and then you are trying to loot his stuff faster than the enemy can, and it's just a silly stupid grabbing fest. Time added to looting, and the ability to be interrupted when looting, would solve this and make the game much more playable for all parties, and much more realistic.

Right, happens all the time is "persistent world". I hate that as well... people get so distracted from fighting because everybody has to loot first.

[Protunia]

Simple make a corpse that you have to open and move each item to and from the corpse to your inv that alone adds time to looting. Adding actual timers for all items is not the way to go. I could see having a timer to take off someone's Armor perhaps or to move some thing just a small quick timer like dropping an item. But I cannot see adding 30 secs to loot each item. You could even have even have it be based on size and weight as far as how long this timer would be, but again I don't see a big timer for most items if any at all.

[Arrakis]

[Zathurus]

100% agree about loot times for both balance and realism reasons...


The worst thing in a full loot game - and something that happened all the time in Darkfall - is your friend dies and then you are trying to loot his stuff faster than the enemy can, and it's just a silly stupid grabbing fest. Time added to looting, and the ability to be interrupted when looting, would solve this and make the game much more playable for all parties, and much more realistic.

You explained this better then me, that was the situation I think is unrealistic and silly also.

The reason that occurs, is that the game has two temporal sections, real time, where players act one minute = one minute such as combat, and abstract time, where some chore does not take as long as it really would usually something like an hour = one minute, such as in crafting and long travel, and rest.

If there was not those two scales you would be spending hours traveling, hours building things, and things like sleep would be 8 hours for 8 hours. It would not work at all.


So to make mundane, non tactical ideas 'faster' to remove the need of real time, they add a fast emulation of some activity.

They make looting part of that, because it is after combat(real time where reflexes matter, and time scale is 1 to 1.) and is mundane in the situation of static PVE.

However in PVP looting, it should still have a 'real time factor' to give the fallen players allies time to react to help recover the corpse and stop looting of the corpse.

"The battle is not over, till you get paid" - Robert Eastwood

So I agree PVP looting should be real time

Zathurus

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Added » 16 Apr 2014, 01:26

Simple make a corpse that you have to open and move each item to and from the corpse to your inv that alone adds time to looting. Adding actual timers for all items is not the way to go. I could see having a timer to take off someone's Armor perhaps or to move some thing just a small quick timer like dropping an item. But I cannot see adding 30 secs to loot each item. You could even have even have it be based on size and weight as far as how long this timer would be, but again I don't see a big timer for most items if any at all.

If your farming PVE you want looting fast, it is a nuisance to have to look at a clock after the fun 'battle part' although you would be healing in typical mmo games during that time.

However PVP is much different, the rewards impact another player, and can be substantial since a player may have put alot of work into building his gear.

Looting a player could give you what that player spent hours farming PVE to build, so in PVP looting, a timer does not seem to be out of balance. And farming Players, would not seem to be the intent or to the advantage of a good PVP system, since if you can attack many players in PVP quickly(and gain what in many cases took them many hours to accumulate), that is not the best balance anyways.

Zathurus




Note this is a reply to two different players posts, that would not seem to be a double post.

[Elindor]

Protunia, 30 seconds for an item would be absurd.

I think in Gloria Victis its like a second or two for quick stuff and for armor and heavier things it's like 9-12 seconds.

It's just enough to remove the "grab bag effect" and give allies a chance to stop you from looting their friend if they can interupt them.

[Zathurus]

Protunia, 30 seconds for an item would be absurd.

I think in Gloria Victis its like a second or two for quick stuff and for armor and heavier things it's like 9-12 seconds.

It's just enough to remove the "grab bag effect" and give allies a chance to stop you from looting their friend if they can interupt them.

The exact amount of time is some play balance issue, and would be different in pve and pvp, since situations are different.

as far as amount of time, that is deciding on amount of 'work' to loot in the form of 'player time' and amount of 'danger' based on having to be uninterrupted. (interruptions to looting, makes two times in PVP situation, the time it takes if nobody is defendending, faster, and the time it takes while someone is trying to defend others loot. )
As far as realism, it depends if it is real time or emulated time.

As far as play-ability it depends on what is important making gaining others stuff in pvp easier or harder.

Although I can say this, player looting changes the idea of having one set of epic armor, to having many suits of armor, so there better be lots of inventory spaces.

I do think it is a good idea, although if you read the idea of 'fort seiges' in disputed territories, I would suggest adding that any looted armor must be worn or stored in a fort that can be seiged so people can get there stuff back.

Including any loot 'sold' to another player, since it would carry the ID tag of won in combat.

It could in that idea be used in all areas of coarse, but could also be recovered.

[Jezbelle]

I think the slow pvp looting idea is excellent.

The worst possible scenario would happen otherwise: when a player dies, and the 15 players fighting around that person drop their weapons and scramble to the body like greedy pigs, enemies and allies both on their knees beside each other trying to click faster than the rest.

Waiting to loot a piece of armor would force everyone to be honorable by ending combat one way or the other, and only then taking part in the spoils.

And hey, if someone wants to risk looting a player while still in combat, let him. He should be vulnerable and 1-shottable while he is going through the corpse's pockets. Similar to as if he has "yielded".