Life is Feudal Official Forum

[Jezbelle]

Hi.

Are the devs hopefully designing LIF in a way that would embrace 'Mount and Gladius style' organized combat? I understand that there are already "formation bonuses", but can we truly achieve the organization that Gladius achieved (if we want to)?

If you don't know mount and gladius, here's a clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmx3wRjqxz0


tools i've noticed to help with organization:
1) Circular shield indicators above players' heads
2) Banners/flag carriers
3) Shield wall effectiveness
4) Armor color themes/ consistent armor styles

[Siegbert]

Shield wall events in Warband are the best, not only in Mount&Gladius. Had some nice ones in Vikingr and Native as well, also Persistent World.

[Svarog]

I think armor coloring should be in 100%. Its a must , people should be able to dye their armor same color like their guild mates. Also , I agree there should be some kind of notification about formation.

[Lukepop]

Will there be a need to wear warm clothing more than armour in cold areas? That would be cool.

[Siegbert]

Will there be a need to wear warm clothing more than armour in cold areas? That would be cool.

I would wish so but atm there is no body heat bar, only hunger and health, so I doubt it.

[Thokan]

Linebattles!


It's a sandbox MMO, not a starving simulator. How would a heat bar add to gameplay?

[Lukepop]

well, naked people in the coldest area? Doesn't make sense. Also, vikings/knights look so much cooler when wearing fur coats.

[Jezbelle]

Please stay on TOPIC..

[Thokan]

The reason why people do formations in Mount and Gladius is all meta. It comes from the community having age-old culture of performing scheduled events with coordination in mind as a contrary to the normal day-to-day gameplay.

People are able to organize in the meta, so the tools for facilitating Mount and Gladius-like events is already in game as a community already exists.

There are some bonuses in having a shield wall, as is with all kinds of major coordination. But that is a bunch of player societies all agreeing on playing coordinated. If all played as individuals just playing the game there would be no reason, no effectiveness, no bonus and no encouragement to play that coordinated.

In other words, there is nothing in the Mount and Gladius-mod that causes that level of coordination to occur. It's all from the players themselves.

P.S the flags are useless save for decoration.

[banok]

Well I haven't played gladius mod but in crpg mod they added shield skill bonus to nearby players which made shield walls actually worth doing.

and for a quite a while people were doing them ingame without out of game communications, simply because they were very effective. however eventually people get bored of so much standing around.

if you make them effective and make people want to win they will do formations, even tho its generally not as fast pace gameplay as running around willy nilly.

[Siegbert]

I would argue they are an effective tactic in Warband, but certainly not for random public games...

Back when I used to play in a native clan we had some bigger international events on open field maps. In those kinds of scenarios a well-coordinated cavalry is a serious threat so you need a well organized infantry shield wall plus archers to stand a chance.

Given that LiF is by default open field I imagine that those tactics come into play more often.

[Jezbelle]

The reason why people do formations in Mount and Gladius is all meta.

I would have to strongly disagree, sharing the opinion of the 2 posters above me.

1) Shield wall deflects against arrows from the side, as well as calvary. That is the whole point. And it is very effective.
2) Flags help players to re-group after becoming scattered in combat.
3) Shield insignias above players heads allow players to see where their particular group is at all times, keeping them from getting mixed up with other squads or venturing too far into an enemy during battle. It also helps judge the outcome of a battle better, so that it does not just look like a complete tangle of unidentifiable bodies. If we can judge battles better, it allows us to become more tactical, and call for new maneuvers or retreats.

[Thokan]

The reason why people do formations in Mount and Gladius is all meta.

I would have to strongly disagree, sharing the opinion of the 2 posters above me.

1) Shield wall deflects against arrows from the side, as well as calvary. That is the whole point. And it is very effective.
2) Flags help players to re-group after becoming scattered in combat.
3) Shield insignias above players heads allow players to see where their particular group is at all times, keeping them from getting mixed up with other squads or venturing too far into an enemy during battle. It also helps judge the outcome of a battle better, so that it does not just look like a complete tangle of unidentifiable bodies. If we can judge battles better, it allows us to become more tactical, and call for new maneuvers or retreats.

This:

I would argue they are an effective tactic in Warband, but certainly not for random public games...

1) Shield walls are in fact horrible against cavalry, and doesnt cover arrows from the side either. The events usually limit the use of cavalry for a reason.

Simply having a shield wall, or square formation as is the case in Napoleonic Wars, is not effective against cavalry, just historically accurate. There is no easy way to effectively counter organized cavalry, as the game is not made or balanced for the sort of meta-organized gameplay.


2) The flags are utterly useless since you got "player banners". They are strictly for roleplaying purposes.

3) "Player banners" are essential for gameplay as they keep you from teamkilling everyone you see. Even strictly uniformed mods like Napoleonic Wars are reliant on the "player banner"-function to avoid mass chaos, even though the friends and foes have separate uniform colors.

Ofcourse the player banners help in coordination, doesnt encourage it though as it is a basic necessity to play the game.

Well I haven't played gladius mod but in crpg mod they added shield skill bonus to nearby players which made shield walls actually worth doing.

There is no combat-tweaks in MnG. It is basically Native with modded character models and textures.

[Jezbelle]

We're not here to argue the subtleties of M&G. Only to discuss ways to better LIF.

Would you not agree that the level of organization present in Mount and Gladius could also be a beneficial thing for LIF, too? Let's say organization WAS only "meta" in M&G.. how do we now incorporate it to be a vital part of game mechanics in LIF?

For one thing, let's make shield walls effective against arrow volleys and calvary.

[Siegbert]

This:

I would argue they are an effective tactic in Warband, but certainly not for random public games...

1) Shield walls are in fact horrible against cavalry, and doesnt cover arrows from the side either. The events usually limit the use of cavalry for a reason.

Simply having a shield wall, or square formation as is the case in Napoleonic Wars, is not effective against cavalry, just historically accurate. There is no easy way to effectively counter organized cavalry, as the game is not made or balanced for the sort of meta-organized gameplay.

I didn't say shield walls in particular. A well organized infantry mob is impenetrable for cavalry. Every cavalryman would get pierced by a dozen of spears.

Shield walls or are just necessary against enemy archers and I'm not talking of a straight line of men holding shields. That's just dumb and only looks good. The only way to protect the man next to you is when you're standing shield by shield.

2) The flags are utterly useless since you got "player banners". They are strictly for roleplaying purposes.

Do we? In LiF? Right now we only have names.

[Thokan]

We're not here to argue the subtleties of M&G. Only to discuss ways to better LIF.

Would you not agree that the level of organization present in Mount and Gladius could also be a beneficial thing for LIF, too? Let's say organization WAS only "meta" in M&G.. how do we now incorporate it to be a vital part of game mechanics in LIF?

For one thing, let's make shield walls effective against arrow volleys and calvary.

The whole point is, the organization doesnt come from the game; but from the community. The prerequisites for the kind of organization seen in MnG is already in place in LiF by default.

Shields already block arrows.

This:

I would argue they are an effective tactic in Warband, but certainly not for random public games...

1) Shield walls are in fact horrible against cavalry, and doesnt cover arrows from the side either. The events usually limit the use of cavalry for a reason.

Simply having a shield wall, or square formation as is the case in Napoleonic Wars, is not effective against cavalry, just historically accurate. There is no easy way to effectively counter organized cavalry, as the game is not made or balanced for the sort of meta-organized gameplay.

I didn't say shield walls in particular. A well organized infantry mob is impenetrable for cavalry. Every cavalryman would get pierced by a dozen of spears.

Shield walls or are just necessary against enemy archers and I'm not talking of a straight line of men holding shields. That's just dumb and only looks good. The only way to protect the man next to you is when you're standing shield by shield.

2) The flags are utterly useless since you got "player banners". They are strictly for roleplaying purposes.

Do we? In LiF? Right now we only have names.

If the level of skill for each individual player is matching the organized cavalry outweighs the organized infantry, even if armed with polearms. For the blob to be truly effective against cav they need to be armed with polearms with great weapon's length, something rarely seen, otherwise the cav can easily just jump over the spears into blob while others come crashing right in; and bloodbath ensues.

The main purpose of the shield wall is to block arrows, yes, and it is indeed effective.

She is obviously referring to the flags and banners present in various Mount and Blade mods.

[Jezbelle]

I would love to hear Bobik's opinion on this, what his plans/hopes are, although I understand if he is busy.

[Bobik]

I had no time to read all that topic thoroughly, neither I've played that mod.

But I think that our formation system should bring a lot of these formations ideas into life by enforcing it with a game play mechanics. Making a tighter formation shape will force everyone to actually follow and keep that formation if they want to get those bonuses. Tighter formation means some larger shields become more useful at least to cover from missiles and will demand a proper weapons to be used or used accurately.
Also, pikes are designed that way, that you should be able to use them effectively in a 2 rows wall formation, since rear row will still be able to effectively attack through forward row (though pike attacks are designed to be more effective vs cavalry).

We will see how it all will work out, but I think we're the closest ones of those no target games on the current market, that brings at least SOME reward to those players that are trying to keep formation and play in a well organized unit, rather than running around and trying to pick off some individual targets chaotically.

[Jezbelle]

Thank you.

This is good to hear. I recommend watching that video if you ever get a free moment. Their organization is jaw-dropping.

[Thokan]

I had no time to read all that topic thoroughly, neither I've played that mod.

But I think that our formation system should bring a lot of these formations ideas into life by enforcing it with a game play mechanics. Making a tighter formation shape will force everyone to actually follow and keep that formation if they want to get those bonuses. Tighter formation means some larger shields become more useful at least to cover from missiles and will demand a proper weapons to be used or used accurately.
Also, pikes are designed that way, that you should be able to use them effectively in a 2 rows wall formation, since rear row will still be able to effectively attack through forward row (though pike attacks are designed to be more effective vs cavalry).

We will see how it all will work out, but I think we're the closest ones of those no target games on the current market, that brings at least SOME reward to those players that are trying to keep formation and play in a well organized unit, rather than running around and trying to pick off some individual targets chaotically.

It is definitely the most encouraging in its genre from what I've seen.

The only objection to the formation-mechanic is that you can't increase or decrease the size of them. So instead of having chaotic individuals you get chaotic small groups of one size.

Ofcourse something for latter development, but I think altering the mechanic to be able to increase the formation fields and at the same time increase the number of players required within to give bonuses would be real beneficial to the encouragement of dynamic, organized PvP gameplay.

Freedom instead of limits, etc.

[Jezbelle]

I think altering the mechanic to be able to increase the formation fields and at the same time increase the number of players required within to give bonuses would be real beneficial

100% agree. My one comment would be that i'd rather be able to "stretch" a formation thinner and longer, instead of just make it "bigger". If we make it too big, it will lose its distinct shape.

So for instance, we stretch it into lines. A commander to each line telling them when to draw, advance, shoot, etc. That is of course considering this is a strong kingdom. 2 lines of pike, 3 of swords, 1 of archers. each with a "line" battle formation.

[LordWiese]

LIF is more like the PW mod than CRPG, or NW.

[Thokan]

LIF is more like the PW mod than CRPG, or NW.

How general of you.

I'd argue that all of the stated mods have equal commonground with LiF.

Do you argue that PW's crude crafting and persistence, which could be mistaken for a MMO-element, to be closer related to LiF than the combat and formations of cRPG and NW or the general engine which all of Warband relies on?

[Krevente]

SSR has been using formations since UO and I know the Yew Militia has as well. I've seen ATS pull together formations in M&B and other games, so it's not too far fetched that people will use them in LiF regardless of what other mechanics are added.

People made sooooooo much fun of us in original Darkfall when we said we were going to use formations and that game had no mechanics that made it easier to use them. They stopped making fun of us for them when we rolled over people as a well organized war machine.

Those formations are pretty cool in the video, but when you're talking 400+ soldiers; formations almost become a necessity for military organization.

Formations are used for command and control as well as creating a human geometry and implementing tactics.

No matter what mechanics are in-game SSR will be using them like we have well before Mount and Blade. Most of our guys are current/former military and participate in living history groups like the SCA where we have been a part of formations in RL.

I'm sure ATS will be doing the same since I know they've got the mechanics down as well.

So for instance, we stretch it into lines. A commander to each line telling them when to draw, advance, shoot, etc. That is of course considering this is a strong kingdom. 2 lines of pike, 3 of swords, 1 of archers. each with a "line" battle formation.

SSR can already do that without any additional mechanics. You should check out our formation drill events when LiF:YO comes out.

We implemented it to great effect in Darkfall and Mortal Online.

[RoboSenshi]

This is one of the reasons I love the direction this game is going in. It not only provides the means to employ battle tactics and formations it encourages it. And let's not kid ourselves in mount and blade most times when the battle lines finally meets the formations usually break down into a blob. It's what really frustrates me when I'm constantly shouting for people to get back in line only for them to ignore me break off and die rather quickly.

[Thokan]

I'm sure ATS will be doing the same since I know they've got the mechanics down as well.

Anything less than spartan hoplites would be a disgrace!