Life is Feudal Official Forum

[Siegbert]

My biggest concern towards LiF at this point is how blocking/parrying will work or IF it will work.

I just played some rounds of "war of the vikings" followed by some rounds of M&B Warband and I must say that Warband's mechanics were hands down the most enjoyable.
Blocking with a shield will protect you from any incoming blow from the front. You can feel quite safe as long as the shield is not broken as it will be hard to find a weak spot.
Parrying with only your weapon works just as the attacking directions. You aim high + click right mouse button so and you will be safe from any blow from above, and so on.

In "War of the Vikings" it works quite similar but you need to look towards the incoming attack which makes you quite vulnerable especially if you're fighting against multiple enemies. I found myself dying quite a lot because blocking is just not as effective/easy.

From what I read LiF will be similar to War of the Vikings in terms of blocking/parrying to a certain degree. You will need to turn towards the incoming blow and the better you do the more damage will be absorbed.

I feel that this will not turn out well... Blocking/parrying should always be more effective than attacking.
If you can't be sure to block any incoming attack 100%, a defensive play style will not be viable. That means both players will just hack&slay at each other with no nice back and forth until eventually someone drops dead.

You can already see this kind of play style working in the bit of game play we had some time ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHToW0Kk5w8

I tried my best to block incoming attacks but failed horribly. Raxx basically held his attack, ran at me and slashed.

This is what this game must not degrade into.

Thoughts?

[Saxxon]

Well it is really hard for me to have thoughts or concerns on it until the combat mechanics are fully implemented and we are able to really test this in detail and get some hard data.

[Siegbert]

Well it is really hard for me to have thoughts or concerns on it until the combat mechanics are fully implemented and we are able to really test this in detail and get some hard data.

I can only speak from my experience with other games. It's been a downer in nearly any sword&shield game that I tested so far.
Everytime blocking isn't 100% reliable to protect me from incoming damage I tend to spam attacks instead of tactically wait for the right moment when my opponent isn't so aware of his weak spot.

Maybe LiF's blocking will turn out to be very reliable without copy&pasting Mount&Blade's mechanic.

[Proximo]

It's true if blocking isn't sufficient protection the combat will turn into doing the most damage as fast as possible. In essence a spam fest with only the heaviest armours and weapons being viable.

[Sturmhardt]

I totally agree, if blocking is generally less effective than attacking, people will tend to attack more often instead of trying to be defensive. This would lead to "spamfest" playstyles we see in many games, for example Mortal Online. Fights like that look totally ridiculous and are not really fun if you are used to a combat system that makes sense. Both opponents charge at each other and try to land hits, blocking does not really play a siginificant role because dealing damage has the higher benefit (see this vid as a bad example, forward to 1 Minutehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4D9WbPGJUM)

Blocking with a shield should be really effective to give the combat system a nice touch of strategical back and forth between two opponents. If you see two guys going at each other and BOTH just hack their swords repeatedly all the time, the combat system is not very sophisticated.

I really have high hopes for LiF in terms of combat, so please make this right guys, we trust you. Combat is the core of the game and it all stands or falls with this system (at least for me). It is also no shame to just copy good mechanics from proven good games

[Thurgeis]

The blocking system seems to be more like in chivalry than in the war of franchises or m&b. I agree that parrying has to be a core of combat, but so far I'm positive that it will be viable to use defensive mechanics to overthrow your opponent.
I'm sure I will spend a lot of time testing this once the combat system is fully implemented, at this moment I don't see a problem here.
If parrying will be to weak it might be a good idea to add a "momentum" after a successful parry, that allows you to hit your opponent in an unblockable counter attack. This could be randomly triggered, depending on weaponskill+luck to prevent blocking becoming op. For example (weaponskill/100)*luck, so with 80 blade skill and 25 luck 0,8*25= 20(%) chance to trigger the momentum, these should not work for shields.

[Arrakis]

First of all, remember that combat mechanics are not yet fully implemented. If something is working bad, or not working at all then it will be fixed sooner or later.

Second thing, wiki explanation of parry/block:

Parry effectiveness depends on how well you have turned your body into the attacking weapon movement direction. Parry as a way to interrupt combos, rather then to simply lower the amount of incoming damage. A successful parry might give you an increased speed for a follow up attack (riposte). Blocking only works with a shield. While in a blocking stance, potential damage from a hit to a shield will not deal any damage to the character. Damage that was dealt in the frontal part of the character will be mitigated, and damage from tea back will NOT be mitigated. Shields also work passively: When not in an active blocking stance or even when carrying a shield on the back. Melee weapon hits in the shield will deal only a portion of the potential damage to the character, while projectiles will deal no damage at all.

So as you see you can block only with a shield which you didn't have, without it you may only parry, and if you perform parry well, then you will gain an advantage over your enemy. As for blocking, it is yet to be seen how does it actually work, because I do not believe anyone has crafted a shield yet and tested it out.

[Thurgeis]

Well I should have looked in the wiki, instead of thinking of a system that is already planned! I'm sure this will work

[Arrakis]

Well I should have looked in the wiki, instead of thinking of a system that is already planned! I'm sure this will work

That's the spirit!

[Elindor]

Even with the knowledge of the planned parry system I still share the concerns of these others about parrying.

I have played a LOT of MB Warband and have played some of Chivalry, War of the Roses, and other mmo's like Mortal Online and Darkfall.

The current plans for LiF parrying sounds like what Mortal decided to do, and I don't think it's enough.

If parrying isn't largely viable then people won't do it, they will just spam. At the same time, if parrying is too powerful, then there's no need for shields. Also, we all know you cant use MB's system cause of server demands and pings.

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> So, I would propose that when you put up a parry the % chance to block the incoming attack is effected by many factors including parry skill, formation bonuses, any debuffs, attacker's skills, luck, etc (maybe also weapon stats?).

> If the block is successful, then it blocks ALL incoming damage from that swing, but gives the blocker a tiny delay timer from absorbing the blow (MB has this). The heavier the attackers weapon is compared to the defenders, the more the delay (again, MB has this).

> -- IF -- you do a "perfect parry", which means aiming at the incoming attack and doing it at the right instant, then you get a "chamber" or "riposte" which is like mentioned, a fast return attack.
** But one should be able to hold a parry up and have it be effective ** (although parrying should decrease movement speed while holding a parry, same as shield blocking)

> I would also propose that if the attacker's weapon is heavier enough than the defenders, and their strength, etc is enough to overwhelm the defenders, that a successful parry should partially fail and only mitigate some damage.

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Thoughts?

[Drakes821]

I agree an appropriate balance is needed between offensive and defensive systems.

I don't however feel like pre-alpha footage (on a very unstable server) of two players ,who lack both in game skill and player skill, fighting each other naked is anything to have concern over. The devs have a system ready to be implemented and critiquing it before it's in doesn't serve any purpose.

[Proximo]

There's no point in talking about specifics of a system we haven't seen yet. Pre-alpha footage doesn't count for much and I for one am interested in seeing the combos they keep mentioning. I also know that I've played games containing action skill like in wotr or wotv which totally ruined the game for me.

[Siegbert]

The blocking system seems to be more like in chivalry than in the war of franchises or m&b.

Not really. Because parrying in Chivalry is reduced to a small time frame. In LiF as well as WotR and Warband you can hold your parry/block as long as you want. It's similar in the sense of directing your body towards the incoming block which might or might not be a good idea.

Blocking only works with a shield. While in a blocking stance, potential damage from a hit to a shield will not deal any damage to the character. Damage that was dealt in the frontal part of the character will be mitigated

I don't understand. Isn't that contradicting itself? Either blocking leaves your character completely unharmed or the damage will be mitigated.
Or is it: blocking with a shield will leave you unharmed while holding a shield in hand without actively blocking will still hurt, but less than having no shield at all? I don't know why that would be a good idea... shield is no armor.

So as you see you can block only with a shield which you didn't have, without it you may only parry

Semantics... I did speak of parrying as well as blocking in my initial post. True, I haven't tested a shield so I can't speak of that (besides in the video I posted the guy in the end has one)
Parrying however should be valid. If done correctly it should leave you 100% unharmed. It should only be more difficult than blocking with a shield.

Also, we all know you cant use MB's system cause of server demands and pings.

Where is that written? What is so special about Warband's blocking/parrying system anyway? If anything it's even simpler than having to calculate the correct angle of an incoming blow and the damage it will deal vs just matching the direction of the attack with the direction of the parry. Seems to be a no brainer for me.
Besides: directional parry is kinda what Mortal Online has done so it's not exactly new to MMOs.

> If the block is successful, then it blocks ALL incoming damage from that swing, but gives the blocker a tiny delay timer from absorbing the blow (MB has this). The heavier the attackers weapon is compared to the defenders, the more the delay (again, MB has this).

Yes, I like this about M&B as well.

> -- IF -- you do a "perfect parry", which means aiming at the incoming attack and doing it at the right instant, then you get a "chamber" or "riposte" which is like mentioned, a fast return attack. 
** But one should be able to hold a parry up and have it be effective ** (although parrying should decrease movement speed while holding a parry, same as shield blocking)

I don't know about that. Mortal Online has it but it feels a bit random to me. I haven't dived into MO's combat system in depth so I better not judge any tiny bit of it.

> I would also propose that if the attacker's weapon is heavier enough than the defenders, and their strength, etc is enough to overwhelm the defenders, that a successful parry should partially fail and only mitigate some damage.

Isn't that also in M&B? I think if you try to parry a hammer with a dagger you will get down nontheless.

I don't however feel like pre-alpha footage (on a very unstable server) of two players ,who lack both in game skill and player skill, fighting each other naked is anything to have concern over. The devs have a system ready to be implemented and critiquing it before it's in doesn't serve any purpose.

Right. I'm not judging the footage (I'm actually the other guy in the video so I'm talking from first hand experience). I'm judging my former experience with other sword&shield games.
There is a reason Mount&Blade is as popular as it is, because combat actually works for once. Can't say that for many games of its kind (Chivalry maybe, but that's a whole other story)

There's no point in talking about specifics of a system we haven't seen yet. Pre-alpha footage doesn't count for much and I for one am interested in seeing the combos they keep mentioning. I also know that I've played games containing action skill like in wotr or wotv which totally ruined the game for me.

Combos maybe fun but I think it's far more important to get the basic stuff like slash and parry/block right. There is no point in adding stuff on top of an ill working system. It will only end in a spam fest like so many MMOs.

[Sturmhardt]

Also, we all know you cant use MB's system cause of server demands and pings.

As far as I know there will be multiple servers and each server will cover a specific part of the map, so if the players per server don't exceed 100-120 players I don't see a problem with that since there are Mount and Blade Siege servers with that many players. And they work very well.

There's no point in talking about specifics of a system we haven't seen yet.

Of course it doesn't make much sense to discuss the current implementation in the alpha build, but it makes a lot of sense to talk about what makes a combat system good and sophisticated and discuss some specifics about that. Maybe the devs will read it and take one or two ideas home from that discussion and think about them and the system will turn out differently than without this discussion.

@General topic:
Let's hope it turns out well, parrying being difficult to do is not really a problem as far as I see it, but I really hope that shields (and thus blocking) will be very effective to prevent a spamming playstyle in general. I have hope, because until now everything I have read about the games' mechanics sounds very well thought out, so I trust you guys

[Protunia]

As long as its not an unrealistic Force Field surrounding the player I think everything will be fine.

I have played War of the Vikings and they nerfed their shield system to the point now that it is not effective to use a shield to block when weapon can go around it easily. Players use Parry more because it blocks easily when you select the right direction. Using Parry should not be 100% effective in blocking all damage so that it makes using the shield worthless.

I am sure during testing of this stuff we will get inot more debates about just how much protection a shield should offer.

[Elindor]

Well, Bobik seems pretty inspired by MB combat so I assumed that if directional parry was possible that he would have done that. But maybe I'm assuming too much.

If directional parry is possible I say do it. That goes with most everything from the MB mechanics.

I just always assumed that such a timing/reactionary system as that was not plausible in an MMO due to server/ping issues.

[Protunia]

Well, Bobik seems pretty inspired by MB combat so I assumed that if directional parry was possible that he would have done that. But maybe I'm assuming too much.

If directional parry is possible I say do it. That goes with most everything from the MB mechanics.

I just always assumed that such a timing/reactionary system as that was not plausible in an MMO due to server/ping issues.

You usually get some kind of warning before the blow lands as to where its coming from....that's how I have seen it in a couple of games like AoC, WotV.

[Scully]

I've come to realize that melee fights in Mount & Blade without chamber blocks, are quite boring tbh. It feels almost turn based and becomes tedious quickly. But if you have more than 50 ping chamber blocks becomes very difficult to do, at least the Warband method, and I can't see it working in an MMO. Maybe now that they've announced multiple smaller servers it could work?

The fact remains though, at some point directional blocking becomes too easy and you will never fail a block again. Something needs to be added to make the combat a bit more complex, and if that something isn't chamber blocks I don't know what it could be.

edit: Unless the Warband style combat has been done away with? I haven't really been keeping up to date with this game.

[Siegbert]

I think because of parrying will be more effective the better you aim it will come down to who aims his parry best in a duel, meaning that you will slowly lose hp the more you miss the perfect angle while parrying. Just a guess...