I am curious as to what degree (if any) will stealth and subterfuge become viable and playable aspects of LiF.
My apologies if I am rehashing an old subject, I have browsed both the general forum and the suggestions forum as well as conducting searches and have not found a topic that discusses this particular point.
LiF will have a rich and deep player driven political and economic system in which individuals and groups will compete for control of land and resources. This competition will inevitably bring players into all manner of conflict, from single combat PvP through open battles and sieges.
It would be extremely fun to be able to add stealth, subterfuge, espionage, sabotage and assassination as viable play styles/ tactics for individuals and groups to affect their wider overall strategies.
The political and economic landscapes will be quite literally crafted by the players, borders and territories constantly shifting and players rising and falling to and from positions of great power and influence.
It would add great depth, immersion and roleplay potential if it were possible to say, assassinate or spy on influential players. Perhaps even sabotage key economic or defensive buildings to wound an enemy factions economy or to soften defences for a forthcoming siege.
This would facilitate gameplay and roleplay opportunities for sneaky players but also security and bodyguard duties for other such players.
Of course such opportunities for players would need to be balanced appropriately. For example assassination skill might take a long time to master, meaning that only very few highly dedicated and skilled individuals have what it takes.
I am sure that this has already been considered before, I just thought to bring the discussion up as I believe that this would add an interesting dynamic to the overal fine tapestry of player driven politics and conflict.
Stealth, Subterfuge, Sabotage & Assassination
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Karstark - Posts: 5
- Joined: 23 Jun 2014, 01:34
Stealth, Subterfuge, Sabotage & Assassination
by
Karstark
» 25 Jun 2014, 14:42
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En_Dotter - Posts: 100
- Joined: 30 Oct 2013, 01:51
Re: Stealth, Subterfuge, Sabotage & Assassination
by
En_Dotter
» 25 Jun 2014, 15:16
Stealth as a skill - NO. Its like any other "normal FPS" game, where u need to do "stealth" yourself, by trying to avoid being seen, and not by clicking a button.
Im not sure if they planned sabotage but it would be nice to have something like it.
Espionage will work like in other guild/clan based games - try to infiltrate the clan, gather intelligence, forward it to your clan, try not to get caught (and possibly gain rather negative community opinion if u get caught). As far as i know there wont be a button for that (and there shouldnt be one).
Assassinations wont have much of an impact on the guild/clan future since the assassinated char will revive. As far as i know there is no mechanic that would make u lose anything else than your stats upon death. I think i read somewhere that there might be something more to some higher ranked characters within a clan but i cant be sure if thats my imagination or if its truth (i doubt it will come soon anyway cus of balance and mechanic problems).
Im not sure if they planned sabotage but it would be nice to have something like it.
Espionage will work like in other guild/clan based games - try to infiltrate the clan, gather intelligence, forward it to your clan, try not to get caught (and possibly gain rather negative community opinion if u get caught). As far as i know there wont be a button for that (and there shouldnt be one).
Assassinations wont have much of an impact on the guild/clan future since the assassinated char will revive. As far as i know there is no mechanic that would make u lose anything else than your stats upon death. I think i read somewhere that there might be something more to some higher ranked characters within a clan but i cant be sure if thats my imagination or if its truth (i doubt it will come soon anyway cus of balance and mechanic problems).
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Karstark - Posts: 5
- Joined: 23 Jun 2014, 01:34
Re: Stealth, Subterfuge, Sabotage & Assassination
by
Karstark
» 25 Jun 2014, 16:52
En_Dotter wrote:Stealth as a skill - NO. Its like any other "normal FPS" game, where u need to do "stealth" yourself, by trying to avoid being seen, and not by clicking a button.
I am fully inclined to support this entirely, my apologies if my original post was unclear about this.
En_Dotter wrote:....there wont be a button for that (and there shouldnt be one).
Again, I wholeheartedly agree and I sincerely hope there won't be a button for it either. Again, my express apologies if the original post lead you to believe that I am advocating otherwise. I had thought that I had written it clearly and succinctly, but perhaps the post needed further review before posting.
OK, I concede that perhaps all of the things that I am positing here are distinctly meta oriented strategies and therefore do not need explicitly building into the core game mechanics. On the other hand, perhaps not. They certainly do not need curtailing and I would hope that they would be encouraged as one of a plethora of strategic implements to be used in game for executing certain objectives.
With regards to stealth, I agree no button for it, I had thought that such things would be obvious without saying it but it seems not. As for facilitating stealth. Lighting, camouflage, movement and terrain are key factors and how the player interacts with them. Also, perhaps there could be a climbing, vaulting, crawling animation that would extend the approaches of how stealth could be performed.
Or just make a button so players can go invisible for 45 seconds.
Spoiler
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En_Dotter - Posts: 100
- Joined: 30 Oct 2013, 01:51
Re: Stealth, Subterfuge, Sabotage & Assassination
by
En_Dotter
» 25 Jun 2014, 18:22
Just to be clear as well, i didnt state my own opinions (except for some stuff in the brackets and assassination thing) but i tried to recall the stuff i read on interactive FAQ. I could be wrong on stuff i said but im quite confident its how devs answered similar questions, or im close to those answers.
If you would like to hear out my opinions, here ya go:
I disapprove of any skill that makes u undetectable or let u gather any information on others' characters (if im not mistaken u will see hp bar over ur targets head? and i dont like that). Maybe that has to do with the fact i played a lot of FPS games and a lot of m&b (cRPG included) and not knowing the stats of your opposition made games more "realistic" and fun for me.
The most sad part of sandbox games with PvP is the existence of instant messaging (including voice chat programs) that dont allow players to intercept important messages. I would like to shoot down a pigeon or a raven carrying a message or take down a messenger and sell (use) the info i found on it. But that is not possible...
The only possible "stealthy" stuff i could perceive in this game would be variety of garments and armors that could allow you some kind of mimicry, but i think this would require quite some resources cus then both players and environment would need to be quite detailed. Again, simple green garments (for grasslands) some brown-green stuff for woods and dark blue for night might help out.
If you would like to hear out my opinions, here ya go:
I disapprove of any skill that makes u undetectable or let u gather any information on others' characters (if im not mistaken u will see hp bar over ur targets head? and i dont like that). Maybe that has to do with the fact i played a lot of FPS games and a lot of m&b (cRPG included) and not knowing the stats of your opposition made games more "realistic" and fun for me.
The most sad part of sandbox games with PvP is the existence of instant messaging (including voice chat programs) that dont allow players to intercept important messages. I would like to shoot down a pigeon or a raven carrying a message or take down a messenger and sell (use) the info i found on it. But that is not possible...
The only possible "stealthy" stuff i could perceive in this game would be variety of garments and armors that could allow you some kind of mimicry, but i think this would require quite some resources cus then both players and environment would need to be quite detailed. Again, simple green garments (for grasslands) some brown-green stuff for woods and dark blue for night might help out.
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Lukepop - Alpha Tester
- Posts: 198
- Joined: 25 May 2014, 12:00
Re: Stealth, Subterfuge, Sabotage & Assassination
by
Lukepop
» 25 Jun 2014, 22:35
Perhaps light affects night vision? Also climbing stuff and a slow stealthy crouch. Also, making people not outlined. If people appear outlined stealth would be impossible. But If people appear as part of the world than natural stealth could work. Finally, maybe the slow crouch makes you move with little noise The further up the skill you go the more effective in reducing sound it is.
Camouflage style clothes would be cool too. Instead of actively fading you just breaking up what you look like to people looking at you. Instead of an effect.
Camouflage style clothes would be cool too. Instead of actively fading you just breaking up what you look like to people looking at you. Instead of an effect.
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Karstark - Posts: 5
- Joined: 23 Jun 2014, 01:34
Re: Stealth, Subterfuge, Sabotage & Assassination
by
Karstark
» 26 Jun 2014, 21:34
Intuitive and Conducive to the wider vision
The idea of facilitating the possibility for stealthy actions to be taken in game for tactical and roleplay purposes would be an excellent addition to LiF. I particularly like the idea of keeping this a very distinct possibility through the use of camouflage and concealment and dependant entirely on the players own sense of stealth and subtlety and not on some arbitrary and 'levellable' active skill to be activated. These mechanics and game play elements would need to be (And I am sure they would be) intuitive and natural, rather than arbitray skills that players grind out in order to level up, something the Devs and the wider community are generally opposed to. This is a somewhat revolutionary game concept, largely because of the overarching vision and scale but also somewhat due to the distancing of LiF from the traditional MMO model.
Scenarios, Roleplay and Gameplay Possibilities
I would like to imagine scenarios where small groups of players may decide to take it upon themselves to execute a certain mission by means of stealth and subterfuge.
This could include, but would not necessarily be limited to, scouting enemy camps, castles and towns. Perhaps the mission may be purely for reconnaissance purposes but may also include theft of or destruction of supplies, sabotage of key siege engines, fortifications. Perhaps assassination or capture of key individuals of leadership in order to hamper the enemy's response and affect disarray.
Game mechanics that would be wonderful to see implemented to some degree and of a high enough standard to allow players to explore these exciting role play and game play opportunities could be, but not necessarily limited to,
Camouflage and concealment - That I imagine would be largely graphical and lighting tweaks that allow players to obscure their own visibility and thus hide and move unseen.
Disguises - Perhaps it is possible for players to masquerade as someone they are not. To wear the enemy colours or to have free run of a city due to the enemy inhabitants viewing you as a harmless merchant or a religious figure.
Travelling Light - No one expects a plate armoured knight to move swiftly, vaulting walls and lifting himself deftly up to height utilising his own body weight.
But for lean players that travel light, is it not possible and therefore desirable for travelling light and using grappling hooks in order to gain access to otherwise inaccessible areas. I'm not advocating that we remodel assassins creed into LiF. But I would love to see some semblance of guerilla warfare, stealth, espionage and generally sneaky tactics in pursuit of personal or guild glory.
Assassination - It has been said that the idea seems more romantic than it is plausible and workable within the game mechanics due to the lack of penalty (or relatively low penalty) for the victim. But this is not necessarily the whole range of considerations for such a possibility. For one thing, a successful assassin surely gets rewarded with loot. As another, consider the main point of an assassination - it is not necessarily to kill (sounds weird right? Hear me out) Killing is the means to an end and that end is to deny the enemy some form of leadership or team cohesion. It is to sever the head of a snake, one of the key objectives of modern snipers. To inflict maximum harm on the enemy's ability to function as a unit with the least amount of bloodshed. It's a vital strategic implement and whilst I have admittedly no idea how this could work in practise, the vision of role play possibilities invigorates my imagination.
Prisoners- some kind of capture and prisoner mechanic would provide an even greater level of depth to strategic planning for in game and meta-game missions. This would open up possibilities for ransoms, hostages and prisoner exchange as a means of treating with enemy factions. The possibilities of these game play styles would be limited (I hope) only by the imaginations of the players and not by limitations in the mechanics of the game.
To sum up... (Sorry this post is long)
This is a discussion on certain elements of core game play mechanics that could directly or indirectly influence sneaky and underhand tactics of secrecy, stealth and sabotage that would have undoubtedly been in relatively widespread use in our own medieval history and I hope that it is possible for this to be implemented into the game somehow. Not as the main strategy of competition nor even a large part of it, so long as it has it's own small place in the world of LiF, I would feel that all weapons will be at our disposal.
Remember Total War?
And just as one final note. To anyone who has played the critically acclaimed and immensely deep and satisfying Total War RTS franchise of games (namely those with medieval in the titles) will remember the importance of spies, agents and assassins in affecting diplomacy and strategic advantage in the overall campaign, it was a very welcome extra level of detail in an already immensely rich and detailed game and offered players more than a few ways to skin a cat. Remember the movies that played when the mission failed or succeeded? For those of you that have not had the pleasure...
[youtube]8qZImMB-yKA[/youtube]
The idea of facilitating the possibility for stealthy actions to be taken in game for tactical and roleplay purposes would be an excellent addition to LiF. I particularly like the idea of keeping this a very distinct possibility through the use of camouflage and concealment and dependant entirely on the players own sense of stealth and subtlety and not on some arbitrary and 'levellable' active skill to be activated. These mechanics and game play elements would need to be (And I am sure they would be) intuitive and natural, rather than arbitray skills that players grind out in order to level up, something the Devs and the wider community are generally opposed to. This is a somewhat revolutionary game concept, largely because of the overarching vision and scale but also somewhat due to the distancing of LiF from the traditional MMO model.
Scenarios, Roleplay and Gameplay Possibilities
I would like to imagine scenarios where small groups of players may decide to take it upon themselves to execute a certain mission by means of stealth and subterfuge.
This could include, but would not necessarily be limited to, scouting enemy camps, castles and towns. Perhaps the mission may be purely for reconnaissance purposes but may also include theft of or destruction of supplies, sabotage of key siege engines, fortifications. Perhaps assassination or capture of key individuals of leadership in order to hamper the enemy's response and affect disarray.
Game mechanics that would be wonderful to see implemented to some degree and of a high enough standard to allow players to explore these exciting role play and game play opportunities could be, but not necessarily limited to,
Camouflage and concealment - That I imagine would be largely graphical and lighting tweaks that allow players to obscure their own visibility and thus hide and move unseen.
Disguises - Perhaps it is possible for players to masquerade as someone they are not. To wear the enemy colours or to have free run of a city due to the enemy inhabitants viewing you as a harmless merchant or a religious figure.
Travelling Light - No one expects a plate armoured knight to move swiftly, vaulting walls and lifting himself deftly up to height utilising his own body weight.
But for lean players that travel light, is it not possible and therefore desirable for travelling light and using grappling hooks in order to gain access to otherwise inaccessible areas. I'm not advocating that we remodel assassins creed into LiF. But I would love to see some semblance of guerilla warfare, stealth, espionage and generally sneaky tactics in pursuit of personal or guild glory.
Assassination - It has been said that the idea seems more romantic than it is plausible and workable within the game mechanics due to the lack of penalty (or relatively low penalty) for the victim. But this is not necessarily the whole range of considerations for such a possibility. For one thing, a successful assassin surely gets rewarded with loot. As another, consider the main point of an assassination - it is not necessarily to kill (sounds weird right? Hear me out) Killing is the means to an end and that end is to deny the enemy some form of leadership or team cohesion. It is to sever the head of a snake, one of the key objectives of modern snipers. To inflict maximum harm on the enemy's ability to function as a unit with the least amount of bloodshed. It's a vital strategic implement and whilst I have admittedly no idea how this could work in practise, the vision of role play possibilities invigorates my imagination.
Prisoners- some kind of capture and prisoner mechanic would provide an even greater level of depth to strategic planning for in game and meta-game missions. This would open up possibilities for ransoms, hostages and prisoner exchange as a means of treating with enemy factions. The possibilities of these game play styles would be limited (I hope) only by the imaginations of the players and not by limitations in the mechanics of the game.
To sum up... (Sorry this post is long)
This is a discussion on certain elements of core game play mechanics that could directly or indirectly influence sneaky and underhand tactics of secrecy, stealth and sabotage that would have undoubtedly been in relatively widespread use in our own medieval history and I hope that it is possible for this to be implemented into the game somehow. Not as the main strategy of competition nor even a large part of it, so long as it has it's own small place in the world of LiF, I would feel that all weapons will be at our disposal.
Remember Total War?
And just as one final note. To anyone who has played the critically acclaimed and immensely deep and satisfying Total War RTS franchise of games (namely those with medieval in the titles) will remember the importance of spies, agents and assassins in affecting diplomacy and strategic advantage in the overall campaign, it was a very welcome extra level of detail in an already immensely rich and detailed game and offered players more than a few ways to skin a cat. Remember the movies that played when the mission failed or succeeded? For those of you that have not had the pleasure...
[youtube]8qZImMB-yKA[/youtube]
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Lukepop - Alpha Tester
- Posts: 198
- Joined: 25 May 2014, 12:00
Re: Stealth, Subterfuge, Sabotage & Assassination
by
Lukepop
» 27 Jun 2014, 22:53
Karstark wrote:[b]Amazing!
[youtube]8qZImMB-yKA[/youtube]
This! People! This is what lif needs for stealth a subterfuge a summary of all the best ideas with some of his own thrown in. Also, amazing video reference.
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En_Dotter - Posts: 100
- Joined: 30 Oct 2013, 01:51
Re: Stealth, Subterfuge, Sabotage & Assassination
by
En_Dotter
» 29 Jun 2014, 01:06
@karstark
Ill comment on disadvantages of assassination and prisoners.
Assassination
As both of us said, game isnt (yet) designed to handle assassination "properly" (stat loss and nothing else for the target). Loot that you get from the victim is nothing else than being a sociopath thief. Assassination is not about stealing stuff, its about crippling or even disabling some organization (be it a small one like a party or a big one like an entire state, or be it just an influential individual that doesnt even belong to an establishment of a sort).
Now you have given the example of usage of sharpshooters (the snipers). That wont work in LiF world. There is something called TeamSpeak or Skype or Mumble or whatever other voice or written chat program that doesnt actually remove the individual from the face of the LiF world, but only the character - the alter ego of that individual. That makes it just too much work for not much of a gain.
Id personally invest my time grinding something (like chopping wood like crazy) than waste my time planning and executing a rather hard mission for basically no gain.
Now to prisoners. I really, really love the idea and i wanted to (or maybe i did but i dont remember) suggest it. While it would add a totally new concept for MMO genre and add an amazing immersion factor it just might "kill" the game (at least for some).
Let me put some extreme situations (i like giving extreme situations cus i think that those are the most difficult to solve and if they are solved than all others might be much easier):
Lets put it like this; i am the king and you are the king. You manage to imprison me (or your elite squad did it or who ever else). Now what? Ransom? Why? Just keep me there and dissolve my kingdom. But that might not work because im alive, and i can still be the king. Even if game mechanics would disable my ability to "rule" i still got TeamSpeak. I would have already have sorted out who would "take" my place and i would still rule from the shadows (of my cell or something).
Lets say devs and community makes an ingenious mechanic that would make ransoms a really good choice and that the prisoner is really a prisoner so this succeeds. Then we have another problem:
Lets say i hate you cus u are on the internet and its not really rare that hatred on the internet can get to some epic proportions (i have seen it on all multiplayer game forums between various ppl) and the reasons might be totally valid or totally retarded. So, i hate u and i imprison you. I dont wan ransom. I just dont want you to play. So you have payed x$ for a game to be perma banned by another player? That is just wrong on many levels. Even if it wasnt a perma ban then i could say keep you for one hour, or 2 hours or a day? Doestn matter how long it is, it seems like players will be able to legally ban other players from the game "cus they can". Not everyone can play 27/7, some ppl maybe 1h a day (if that much even). They want to enjoy the game and they can make a mistake to provoke someone (in the game and/or on the forum) and its not hard to ambush someone and deny them even that little time they got to play it.
If you can find the solution to those problems i stated i would love to see all of those features in!
TL:DR version
Ill comment on disadvantages of assassination and prisoners.
Assassination
As both of us said, game isnt (yet) designed to handle assassination "properly" (stat loss and nothing else for the target). Loot that you get from the victim is nothing else than being a sociopath thief. Assassination is not about stealing stuff, its about crippling or even disabling some organization (be it a small one like a party or a big one like an entire state, or be it just an influential individual that doesnt even belong to an establishment of a sort).
Now you have given the example of usage of sharpshooters (the snipers). That wont work in LiF world. There is something called TeamSpeak or Skype or Mumble or whatever other voice or written chat program that doesnt actually remove the individual from the face of the LiF world, but only the character - the alter ego of that individual. That makes it just too much work for not much of a gain.
Id personally invest my time grinding something (like chopping wood like crazy) than waste my time planning and executing a rather hard mission for basically no gain.
Now to prisoners. I really, really love the idea and i wanted to (or maybe i did but i dont remember) suggest it. While it would add a totally new concept for MMO genre and add an amazing immersion factor it just might "kill" the game (at least for some).
Let me put some extreme situations (i like giving extreme situations cus i think that those are the most difficult to solve and if they are solved than all others might be much easier):
Lets put it like this; i am the king and you are the king. You manage to imprison me (or your elite squad did it or who ever else). Now what? Ransom? Why? Just keep me there and dissolve my kingdom. But that might not work because im alive, and i can still be the king. Even if game mechanics would disable my ability to "rule" i still got TeamSpeak. I would have already have sorted out who would "take" my place and i would still rule from the shadows (of my cell or something).
Lets say devs and community makes an ingenious mechanic that would make ransoms a really good choice and that the prisoner is really a prisoner so this succeeds. Then we have another problem:
Lets say i hate you cus u are on the internet and its not really rare that hatred on the internet can get to some epic proportions (i have seen it on all multiplayer game forums between various ppl) and the reasons might be totally valid or totally retarded. So, i hate u and i imprison you. I dont wan ransom. I just dont want you to play. So you have payed x$ for a game to be perma banned by another player? That is just wrong on many levels. Even if it wasnt a perma ban then i could say keep you for one hour, or 2 hours or a day? Doestn matter how long it is, it seems like players will be able to legally ban other players from the game "cus they can". Not everyone can play 27/7, some ppl maybe 1h a day (if that much even). They want to enjoy the game and they can make a mistake to provoke someone (in the game and/or on the forum) and its not hard to ambush someone and deny them even that little time they got to play it.
If you can find the solution to those problems i stated i would love to see all of those features in!
TL:DR version
Spoiler
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Lord_Sitruc - True Believer
- Posts: 262
- Joined: 27 Jun 2014, 20:22
Re: Stealth, Subterfuge, Sabotage & Assassination
by
Lord_Sitruc
» 01 Jul 2014, 04:14
One way to do assassinations is to give all the people around him a debuff for a period of time.... the king/commander/seargent just got killed his subordinates are going to have their moral fall through the floor. This would add another level to battles and aslo allow special assassin squads in battle to target leaders and cause leaders to be more cautios about exposing themslves in the heat of battle unless it is for a decisive attack. It could also lead to historic duels in the middle of battles where the two commanders fight it out while the rest of the afmies stand by regaining stamina much like the epic tales of history
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Lukepop - Alpha Tester
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- Joined: 25 May 2014, 12:00
Re: Stealth, Subterfuge, Sabotage & Assassination
by
Lukepop
» 01 Jul 2014, 07:35
What is this morale? It is not in the game as far as I know. Morale would only be their real life morale. Do you mean something that increases their combat effectivity in some way? Because that would need other implementations like morale boosting flags or very low quality food over a long time decreases morale.
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Lord_Sitruc - True Believer
- Posts: 262
- Joined: 27 Jun 2014, 20:22
Re: Stealth, Subterfuge, Sabotage & Assassination
by
Lord_Sitruc
» 01 Jul 2014, 08:36
No, I am not asking to invent a new system for morale. But they do already have a system where if your in a formation and have certain orders it buffs certain stats. It should be easy to use this same framework to implement a penalty when leadership gets taken out using the same frame work, basically simulating "morale" drops that occur when leaders are taken out.
Added » 01 Jul 2014, 10:48
However with that being said, the moral boosting flags and rations as well as loss of moral from a dropped banner or from poor food would also be very cool in game in my opinion. It would make flags and leaders rally points and add another cool layer to the battlefield combat.
Added » 01 Jul 2014, 10:48
However with that being said, the moral boosting flags and rations as well as loss of moral from a dropped banner or from poor food would also be very cool in game in my opinion. It would make flags and leaders rally points and add another cool layer to the battlefield combat.
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Arthua - Posts: 44
- Joined: 28 Jan 2014, 00:35
Re: Stealth, Subterfuge, Sabotage & Assassination
by
Arthua
» 08 Jul 2014, 03:35
Prisoners will be possible if there are sleepers, or atleast the mechanic where if you log into the game you spawn where you last logged out.
This will force people to use the inhome beds or least log off in a place of safety.
This will force people to use the inhome beds or least log off in a place of safety.
12 posts
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