Rambling about the new patch :D and talk about realism

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Hoshiqua
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Rambling about the new patch :D and talk about realism

Post by Hoshiqua » 04 Aug 2015, 22:39

Maybe that should go in the feedback section ? I don't know..

Now, don't get me wrong, I like that patch, and the work that was done here is simply incredible ! New chars look gorgeous, the rags too, and the "You sons of sluts" stuff is nice too (as a taunt !). Great job !

Yes, I know I've been doing a lot of rambling these days. People may call me a whiner, or someone that doesn't know shit about game designs, and tell me that I'm just a player.. But still, I like being the guy that points out what is bad in his opinion, I like expressing my thoughts, and as one of the oldest members of this community (I know, far from the oldest, but still, pretty old), I feel I deserved to be listened too.

Now, to the rambling part.

DISCLAIMER : I KNOW, I know.. "This is a GAME !!" like some people told me. But still, I do not see things so simply. For me, realism (to a degree, yes, but to a much higher one than anyone might think) is something that can exist in a game and make it better, and more importantly, IMMERSIVE. And that's the whole subject of this lil' rambling.

If you absolutely disagree with the fact that I MAY be right saying that, and feel you can really not be convinced otherwise, then I suggest you do not waste your time reading this. As for the others, I will try to make it as clear as possible :)


This rambling mainly concerns the new archery abilities, and the general direction the game is taking towards actual realism and historical accuracy (of mechanics, I mean. I know this is another world blablabla..).

So, as you guys may know, there are 4 new BIG ranged combat abilities in the game, that should make it even easier to take people out from afar (because it wasn't easy enough already..).

So, first thing first, I'll talk about the new Bow abilities. Arrow to the knee, and the volley. Both of them make NO sense to me.

Arrow to the knee.. this one is just hilarious. I mean it, I really like the reference to skyrim, and it works well, as far as I tested it. For starters, this ability, when triggered, will make the next shot slow the target you hit down by 10%, and 50% if you hit the legs.

And.. I just don't understand the whole logic. Imagine you get an arrow in your leg. You would be slowed down, right ? Now imagine you notice the guy is a very bad archer, so, in the game he wouldn't have the ability.. would it be a reason why you would just stand back up and say "Ha ! You're so bad at archery, I don't feel this arrow stuck in my leg ! I shall now run towards the sunshine like a rabbit !".

That's what I don't like. It could be a LOT more immersive that you would be slowed down by.. any wound to the legs, including arrows. It would also make a lot more sense. And then what prevents the archers and crossbowmen from just going for the legs to slow you down continually ? ARMOR ! A few plates and with a bit of luck, arrow or bolt won't penetrate far enough, or at all, to wound you to the point of slowing you down.

Okay, so that's what I think about arrow in the knee. Now, what about volley ? .. Omg, volley. Really guys ? In World of Warcraft, it's okay, because it's not middle ages, there's magic.. it's fine.
But, in a game whose keyword is "realism", and that means, for a part, "immersion", it's simply unnacceptable to me. Let's say you're an archer by yourself.. why not shoot straight towards the enemy ? Why just start shooting in the air and hope the arrows land in time, and on their targets ? I did not test arrow volley because none of us has skill for it, but as far as I know, you just start shooting in the air and the arrows land where you aim in a "volley".

Again.. DIS MAKES NO SENSE ! A volley is something SQUADS / UNITS / PLATOONS of archers would use to demoralize the enemy, by suddenly killing a lot of them. Could also be used to better control the amunitions, when defending castle walls for example. That's IT. There would be NO reason, and it would be against common sense, to fire a volley of arrows by yourself.

Now, an easy way to suddenly make it a lot more realistic and immersive, would be to make it a squad wide ability. Basically, if you are leader, you could designate a target zone, and, provided you got a bow and ammo, you and all archers in your formation shape would fire at the same time towards that target zone. That would be AWESOME, and super epic for archers in large battles, in MMO. Think about it !

Now, let's go to the new crossbow abilities.. "Stoping power" and "Piercing projectile" or someting like that.

"Stopping power", for starters, is an ability that, when trigerred, will make the next bolt stun whatever it hits for one second.
Now, that's the one ability that for me makes the most sense (out of the 4 you implemented I mean). Yes, if you get pierced by a bolt, it's rare that you will just continue running. You will pause for a sec because of the sudden pain. But right now it seems to work no matter what, even against armored opponents.

This goes back to my thread about armors, and how arrows and bolts were not that effective against heavy armors like plate. So, if I may again suggest a change, make it more or less effective depending on how much the bolt actually penetrated. If it just glanced off, and did no damage, or very little, then no stun. But if it fully penetrated someone, make it stun for like 4 seconds, or even make the guy fall if it penetrates the legs heavily. That would be, again, more realistic, more immersive, and more epic in some cases :D

And finally, the fourth ability, "Piercing bolt" or I don't remember what the name is. Basically, it makes your next bolt be able to go through up to 3 players in a line.

And this one.. this one. Even the other abilities I'm more happy about them, because it is HUMANELY possible you might achieve it.
But, this one.. no. NO. NEVER, EVER would a bolt hurt more than one target. And even if it does go through the guy and keeps flying on the other side, which would already be incredibly rare, it would never have enough force to really be any threat. This one simply makes no sense. In my humble opinion, no way you could keep it, and still call ranged combat "somewhat realistic / immersive / whatever".

That's pretty much it. What I think about the ranged abilities, and how, again, in my humble opinion, they could be "fixed" (more like "changed") into something a lot more realistic and immersive.

I know, I can not tell Bobik how to do his job as a game designer. But when you call your game "realistic" (I will keep saying that until you remove the keyword "realism" from the frontpage of this website and from steam), you should not go against it. In the contrary, going in the direction of what I call "fun realism", that means, "realism without the boring life stuff like having to sleep, do long, boring things, etc.." will make this game simply ground-breaking, and I believe, a HIT in the MMO, and video game industry.

Oh, yes, as for the war cries.. I don't know, really. It seems wierd to me to implement "fear" in combat where player skill is the biggest factor. Maybe make the effectiveness of other's war cries and yours on others depend on your and your target's willpower ? Would be nice, because right now Willpower has no effect in combat, and thus, combat characters have very low willpower, which seems.. wierd.

---------------------------

Now, I didn't want to create a new thread for that, but I'd also like to talk about the general view on "realism" in this game, but also in general, in the video game design world.

What I don't understand, for LiF, is that, so far, they have blindly followed ALL of the common myths invented by Hollywood movies in the 20th century : Plate armor being easily pierceable, just not slashable, "Chainmail" instead of "Mail", the existence of 100% leather armors, or studded leathers (those were NOT studs alone, but studs to fix plate armors to the leather, which were on the INSIDE of the so-called "studded leather"), axes breaking shields a lot easier than swords, or swords being primary weapons on the medieval battlefield.. the list goes long.

Why not try to break those myths and make a very original game ? No one has even tryed it before, so you can't say it would make something unbalanced / not funny right away. There are ways around such problems other than "make the whole thing full of myths".

That's it, that's the debate I want to start here.

Hopefully you guys took the time to read all of this, and for that, I thank you ! <3

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Re: Rambling about the new patch :D and talk about realism

Post by Azzerhoden » 05 Aug 2015, 00:46

How about term "Fun(tastically) Feudal"? Seriously, I fully support your argument about relabeling this game as a practical, fun, semi-realistic version of feudal life.

In much the same way that my guild classifies ourselves as "practical" role-players. We don't attempt to recreate Shakespeare, instead we decide on a 'personality' for our characters, and play them accordingly.

As for the abilities, play testing will tell.
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Re: Rambling about the new patch :D and talk about realism

Post by Hoshiqua » 05 Aug 2015, 00:59

That's not really my argument xD I was just saying that the label is wrong if they keep going that way. But I'd rather see the label kept and becoming meaningful.

And for the ability, no, playtesting will not tell. Commonsense tells. I did archery, and I can tell you, firing in a volley like that, by yourself, is simply a stupid thing to do if you want to attack people in a target area. And that's just one example.

Plus, "Fun feudal" games.. combat wise, there are a LOT of them. Maybe not MMO, but there are a lot.


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Re: Rambling about the new patch :D and talk about realism

Post by Heinrich_von_Leipa » 05 Aug 2015, 04:10

I simply have to agree with Hoshi. Period. I don't like where this game is going to as well, in terms of realism. Like him I'm also one of those video gamers who love realistic games, especially (as hobby historian IRL) regarding historical video games.

And while LiF surely does approach realism fairly well in many things, there are more and more things coming, that are so incredibly unrealistic! Very, very badly the game needs to either change (my preferred solution) or remove any description that may implicate that this is a realistic (in terms of mechanics) historical medieval game.

And to prove that realism CAN work and is NOT a turnoff: Go check out "Kingdom Come: Deliverance". That's an ultra historical game, made together with historians. And yet it has a fan base as large as LiF's and is equally successful - and it's loved by roleplayers and PVPlers alike.

All we want is for LiF to be a little more historically and physically accurate, please! I can handle that races have fictional names and stuff, but I can not handle that some guy can pierce 3 fully plated knights against any physical laws with one god damn crossbow bolt !!!




P.S. Hoshi if you read this: can you pleeeease turn off your god damn huge signature and make it much smaller, it's a pain in the eye ;-) Thanks mate ;)


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Re: Rambling about the new patch :D and talk about realism

Post by Hoshiqua » 05 Aug 2015, 11:58

+152214

Tho Kingdom Come : Delivrance is a dangerous comparison, because it is single player game, and thus allows for much more in-depth combat, since it doesn't really have to worry about lag.

I will do that. Didn't know my sig. was so painful D:

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Re: Rambling about the new patch :D and talk about realism

Post by DarkKnyte » 05 Aug 2015, 14:17

Sorry, in all that ranting about realism, I missed the part about disease, disability, and permadeath -- because that's realistic.

Maybe you take a shot to the knee and chase after a bad archer, maybe you don't. Either way, that dung coated arrow will kill you after a few excruciating days, after which, you lose everything.

Don't whine about lack of realism when it only suits your play style. Either it's a game or a simulator. One is more fun, the other is more educational.

FWIW, I agree that 'volley' should be a unit enabled ability. However, the stench of hypocrisy in this thread is overpowering the dung on that arrow I shot you with.
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Re: Rambling about the new patch :D and talk about realism

Post by Hoshiqua » 05 Aug 2015, 14:31

You didn't read the part about "fun realism". Make it realistic while it stays fun. Perma death is not really fun I think.. dicease could be ! I think it's an idea that got upvoted quite a lot.

Please read the whole thing before saying such stuff.

We could simply rule out what is plainly 'boring realism', or make it fun someway and stay as close to realism as possible. I had made a suggestion about disability and stuff before, I can't find it tho..

Also, it depends what you call a "simulator". Arma III is a simulator, but still, you respawn after death, you got a helpful UI.. They managed to make a realist modern warfare game, and remove whatever is simply 0 fun, or 0 useful.

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Re: Rambling about the new patch :D and talk about realism

Post by Azzerhoden » 05 Aug 2015, 15:12

Here are some realism's that are conveniently forgotten.

Taming has no place in the real world. It exists in game to make it playable.

No human being can carry a full grown horse, full grown cow, or pretty much any of the other tamable farm animals.

For that matter I challenge anyone to carry multiple chickens or rabbits.

Caring for a farm animal is more expensive (and takes more effort) then just visiting the barn occasionally. Trust me, I know this first hand.

The rate of reproduction is completely unrealistic. The gestation period of a cow is around 9 months.

Crops take a lot longer to grow, even if you take into account the increased speed of the game's day/night cycle.

Injuries certainly take a lot longer than a 'day' of game time to heal.

Early Plate Armor was certainly vulnerable to longbows and crossbows. Later plate was not (as previously pointed out), as the refinements process improved. So what time period are we taking about?

There is no such thing as recall. No such thing as alignment, no such thing as skill loss. To become an skilled architect/engineer is not something players can just learn on their own by trying. Same thing applies toward becoming a skilled armorer.

For that matter, how many times has a falling tree landed on something (or someone) in the game. Where's the damage? Dropping a tree can be as simple as using an axe to fall it, but there is a reason that timber falling is one of the most dangerous professions. Lets not go into the 'picking up a fallen tree and carrying it on your back' example. Oh, I guess I just did.

I could go on, but there's no need. The above all exist to make the game more playable, more fun. I don't care if leather armor actually existed or not. If they changed the name to brigantine, does the issue suddenly go away?

I do like the idea of volley being a unit ability, and I dislike arrows going through multiple people, but that is a skill issue, not a 'realism versus Hollywood' issue. A skill issue because not having a 'special skill ability' would lead to bowman crying out they get no love.

In your defense Hoshiqua, you do put a lot of effort into detailed, alternatives, which I hope the dev team looks at. So lets offer some alternatives on these long range skills they added.

Perhaps something that would simulate additional focus for the archer? It would be reasonable to think that a highly skilled bowman would be able to focus on a specific target (or targeting area) and have a greater chance to hit it.
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Re: Rambling about the new patch :D and talk about realism

Post by Hoshiqua » 05 Aug 2015, 18:11

Once again, when I say that there should be more realism, I'm not asking for the game to become a life simulator. I don't get what's so hard to understand when I said that twice already..

Beside, I'm talking mainly about combat. In my opinion, peaceful skills are MORE OR LESS realistic. The only thing which clearly is not is the timescale.. YES crops would normally take longer to grow, yes leather would be longer to dry, yes breeding would be longer..

I mean, i'm not closed to backing up any suggestions about making THAT realistic but what interests me, and also what I know the most about (I mean, how it was back then and stuff) is combat.

About time period.. yes it is a good question. Considering there are weapons such as the Bec de Corbin or the Buckler.. I'd say it's high middle age. And at that time plate had already been a super useful stopper of projectiles for quite some time already.

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Re: Rambling about the new patch :D and talk about realism

Post by Azzerhoden » 05 Aug 2015, 18:38

But where do you draw the line?

Even if we solely focus on combat, the line cannot be clearly delineated. If you or I could provided a finite division of what is acceptable and what is not, would other players agree?

At the moment I think damage from bolts and arrows is over-powered from a game balance point of view, but is certainly realistic (at least for a broad head). In the real world a deer hit with a broad head in the lung-heart area will run off and bleed out, yet that is certainly not happening in the game.

I guess what I am objecting to is the broad paint brush of the game not being 'realistic'. I agree with a lot of the points you are raising, but I don't see how its realistic for us to expect the devs to deliver against vague requirements. That's why I started going down the re-branding path (removing the terminology around the game being realistic).

It is not possible to meet that expectation.
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Re: Rambling about the new patch :D and talk about realism

Post by Hoshiqua » 05 Aug 2015, 19:27

Well, draw the line where you want.. I have basically said everything I propose to make the game more "realistic" and also more enjoyable in many threads, including this one.

And if the game is really re-branded as non realistic, I'm not playing it anymore, as well as many others. As simple as that.

I'm still here because this is still early stage, and things can still be deeply changed.


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Re: Rambling about the new patch :D and talk about realism

Post by Maegfaer » 05 Aug 2015, 23:24

I think everyone makes the trade-off between good gameplay and realism in their own heads. People are annoyed by features that break realism while not compensating enough for it with good gameplay.

People like a degree of realism in games because then things make sense. Things then work as you expect and anticipate them to work, which is easy on the brain. The brain doesn't like correction of a logical expectation, especially if the correction isn't carried by a logical argument.

A special shot that can penetrate three armoured warriors is not something to expect of a crossbow. It violates expectations (realism) while only being a gimmick in terms of gameplay.
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Hoshiqua
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Re: Rambling about the new patch :D and talk about realism

Post by Hoshiqua » 06 Aug 2015, 00:15

And the volley is something that would obviously be very stupid to do as a lone / very small squad of archers.

That's where I draw my lines. Things that make no sense, and / or are taken from myths created by other games or films. And I think that is the least to expect from a game that calls itself realistic.

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Re: Rambling about the new patch :D and talk about realism

Post by Azzerhoden » 06 Aug 2015, 04:25

Hoshiqua wrote:And the volley is something that would obviously be very stupid to do as a lone / very small squad of archers.

That's where I draw my lines. Things that make no sense, and / or are taken from myths created by other games or films. And I think that is the least to expect from a game that calls itself realistic.


And I would agree with that.

This would be a great unit and formation skill. Possibly only available if the squad leader has the volley skill, with the effectiveness limited to the actual number of archers in the unit.
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Re: Rambling about the new patch :D and talk about realism

Post by Hoshiqua » 06 Aug 2015, 11:37

I think everyone makes the trade-off between good gameplay and realism


And that's where a lot of people are partially wrong.
Realism does not necessarily mean worst gameplay. Except is some extreme cases like having to sleep, and all that kind of boring things of life, realism can also be taken to a level that actually makes the gameplay deeper, and more complex !


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Re: Rambling about the new patch :D and talk about realism

Post by Heinrich_von_Leipa » 06 Aug 2015, 13:15

Hoshiqua wrote:+152214

Tho Kingdom Come : Delivrance is a dangerous comparison, because it is single player game, and thus allows for much more in-depth combat, since it doesn't really have to worry about lag.

I will do that. Didn't know my sig. was so painful D:



Thanks mate for the sig. change :-)

I wasn't comparing LiF with that game in terms of technical quality but in terms of the realism-approach. Realism or not has nothing to do with lag and stuff. Stuff like not being able to shoot a bolt through 3 armored knights in a row has nothing to do with singleplayer or multiplayer game but with realism or no realism. :-)


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Re: Rambling about the new patch :D and talk about realism

Post by Hoshiqua » 06 Aug 2015, 23:47

That's true. But I was just thinking that you would have same expectation realism wise for those two games. And ping IS a problem for realism, combat wise, because real life combat is skill based (obviously) while this is achievable in this game, ping is going to be limiting factor (not as much as people think tho).


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Re: Rambling about the new patch :D and talk about realism

Post by Artaus » 10 Aug 2015, 02:21

I would have to agree with you Hoshi. While the volley could be a smart idea to implement (testing and time will tell), the "arrow to the knee" is a bit silly :crazy: At least the name of it.

However archers will need abilities to defend themselves from other classes. So maybe we could focus on balanced ideas that could replace arrow to the knee and volley(?) cavalry and shield footman are the biggest antagonists of the archers, so maybe armour piercing bodkin arrows and stakes could be implemented.

My question is would arrow to the knee affect the individual if it hit a shield?


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Re: Rambling about the new patch :D and talk about realism

Post by Hoshiqua » 10 Aug 2015, 13:54

Well, yes, there needs to be balance, you're right. But, think about something - archers were used massively until something that is just better, with no drawbacks, replaced them.. gunpowder.

So if archers / xbowmen are unbalanced, that means, too weak or too strong, that means it is a flaw in the general game design, and not a lack of unrealistic, dumb skills to make up for that weakness / strenght.

Replace arrow to the knee ? Easy. Just make it so if something damages your legs too hard, you are slowed down. Could even make you fall ! But with arrows that would only happen if the guy is not too armored, which is normal. Replace volley ? Well.. maybe an ability to temporarily reduce the size of the crosshair ? Like "precise shot" or "masterful shot", that would allow you to aim for weaknesses in the armor.

Maybe move volley to unit & formation ? I don't know. Why would there be a volley skill at all ? I mean, hell, you don't need to be a good archer to do a volley. You just need numerous archers. Make them aim for the same point, shoot at the same time and there, volley !

But in general, I think archers and crossbowmen should be worthless against heavy armors, like they were back then. But heavy armor should be very costly, so most people wouldn't have one.


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Re: Rambling about the new patch :D and talk about realism

Post by AtrocityL » 10 Aug 2015, 14:40

I completely agree with Hoshi on this one and I think some might have taken it out of context of what was said. Either way I'm biased as far as "Special Abilities" go anyways, im just not a fan. I prefer a skill based approach. I don't think you should get a skill rather if you hit the person in that specific area this effect may happen.

These silly abilities or skills is just that, silly. I don't think they should be in the game.

As for disease and what not I wouldn't mind that, it makes a use of medicines.


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Re: Rambling about the new patch :D and talk about realism

Post by Hoshiqua » 10 Aug 2015, 15:15

I prefer a skill based approach


+1

That is also a huge problem this game will have. Some skill involved but not that much, which is bad IMO.

Also, wanted to ask.. is anyone like Arrakis or Saxxon or people like that reading this ? I've been posting hundreds of posts about suggestions, ramblings, talks, with a lot of thinking behind them, to try and make this game something better and also very different, niche (like it was always supposed to be), but I was always faced by other simple forum users like me, no one that can actually give a good answer in the name of the dev team, or in the name of someone who is involved with this game development.

It's not like the forums are buzzling with activity.. takes 5 minutes to read maximum, and 2 more to answer.

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Re: Rambling about the new patch :D and talk about realism

Post by Dalin » 12 Aug 2015, 12:17

Completely agree with Hoshiqua .

I think a good part of the community of this game or those who have more than 20-25 years old want a more balanced and realistic games.

The major concern is the side " craft " of this game that makes it super easy to have a good plate armor . I think the developers wanted to against - balanced this by increasing the power of ranged weapons .

But no , do not go into the logic "It's too hard and I cry a lot on forums " for weapons powers are up or down .

A weapon has real power. The better to balanced it is to make such and such weapons more or less hard to manufacture.

I do not want to see after 1 month of MMO games, the army of attackers in plate armor T3 or T4.
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Re: Rambling about the new patch :D and talk about realism

Post by Sirspliffington » 12 Aug 2015, 17:28

Dalin wrote:I think a good part of the community of this game or those who have more than 20-25 years old want a more balanced and realistic games.



...You may want to offend less people with your posts in the future. Not all of us 25> gamers think in the way you imagine we do.

Back on subject: I would also like to see a response from the devs on this, seems like they're sidestepping the popular debates a little ( e.g. this & alignment penalty). I was always wary of the combat actions that were yet to be implemented as they just seemed gimmicky with no place in a game which has a USP being realism. I personally would like to see combat actions, including warcry, available only when in a formation of at least 5 people. The whole being superhuman for a split second doesn't appeal to me in the slightest.

With so many people concerned about this subject, why not be open with the community and put forward a poll as was done with the UI and more recently with the 3 most popular suggestions? Option 1) Focus on realism. With examples of what this entails, using feedback from this thread and the rest of the forum. Option 2) Sacrifice realism for gameplay purposes. Again, with examples of what aspects of realism would be lost in favour of "enhanced" gameplay.

/ramblingmodeoff


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Re: Rambling about the new patch :D and talk about realism

Post by Willbonney » 13 Aug 2015, 00:27

I've disliked the idea of the Volley skill from the get-go. This xbow shot that goes through up to 3 players in a line, also concerns a bit. Good replacement ideas I've either read about or thought of myself would be:

Rapid Fire - Skill when used the player will quickly loose 3 arrows from the bow, automatically. Less power/damage per hit than a single fully charged bow shot. Damage Bonus if 2nd and 3rd shot both hit (think combo for a Bow).

Weakening Shot - Skill when used will make the next arrow/bolt shot reduce melee power/damage of target by 10%, 50% if hit on arms.

Concussive Shot - Skill when used will make next arrow/bolt shot stop forward movement of player. Knocks player to the ground if hit in the head.

Point Blank - Skill when used increases damage of arrow by 50% for a very short range. After arrow has gone past this range damage of the arrow is reduced by 50%.
Last edited by Willbonney on 16 Aug 2015, 05:08, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Rambling about the new patch :D and talk about realism

Post by Stianos » 16 Aug 2015, 05:04

+1

I'm against having activated "Skill shots" in general. But, if we have to have them they should at least be less impossible.

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Re: Rambling about the new patch :D and talk about realism

Post by SirWinston » 16 Aug 2015, 19:27

Gotta agree with you Hoshiqua. Abilities, even if not 100% realistic, should at least make sense.
About historical accuracy, well, since we mix different types of armors from different countries / periods of history it's doesn't seem to be relevant to the devs.

Oh and Hoshiqua, I don't think the devs or community managers are ignoring you. They may very well read this thread but just can't give you a proper, satisfying answer. (...yet?)
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Hoshiqua
Alpha Tester
 
Posts: 1057
Joined: 18 Jan 2014, 14:48

Re: Rambling about the new patch :D and talk about realism

Post by Hoshiqua » 23 Aug 2015, 01:01

Well they should.. It's pretty clear what their view on realism is now (combat is not immersive or realistic at ALL, but OMG they must NOT implement flattening of paved tiles because it's not realistiiiiiic !!)

I really do hope someone like Arrakis, one of the devs, saxxon.. I don't know xD Comes and gives his 2 cents !

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