Character's Mobility in PvP

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Hoshiqua
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Character's Mobility in PvP

Post by Hoshiqua » 20 Oct 2015, 15:59

Heya !

My armor ideas were discussed in the last stream with Bobik, and even tough they were essentially turned down, I will probably try to get myself a server that I will mod and use as a testing ground so we can actually see how it goes, really.

But today, I am going to open another debate, on which I have my own ideas of course : Character mobility in combat.

What I mean by "mobility" is the general ability to move around in a certain time and in a certain manner (constant translation, quick step by steps..).

First off, let me tell you why I feel this needs to be at the very least talked about..

Spoiler


So, now, about my suggestions .. There are two ways the game could have fights where everyone doesn't run around like headless chickens Mortal Online style : A system where players are, in a way, forced to stay static, but also rewarded for doing so. Such system will lead to noobs trying to run around all the time, and being disadvantaged against someone who is more static.

The way players could be forced would be to make charging forward in combat, well, only possible while going forward (remove the possibility to strafe while running forward).

That would already make running less useful in many situations, since you would be a LOT more dependent on how fast your character rotates. But still, it is not enough.
Running around must NOT be an option for things that happen a lot in combat, such has preparing a strike or dodging one.

How do we do that ?
"Running" in combat stance should not be seen / used as a way to be "temporarily faster" or "activating da turbo", but rather as a way to charge forward to engage and disengage direct, melee combat with another player, and maybe a a way to pursue someone who tried to flee.

The difference between the simple vision of "going faster" and the reality of charging / running in combat, is that, there is a whole new notion of commitment coming into play.

Try to grab a stick and charge someone with it, strike, and then keep going past him while having taken almost no damage. It's not possible, because it takes half a second to start running (not really relevant here), and it takes at least a second to regain proper combat footing after a run.

This could be applicable in LiF : with a few well made mocap animations of running state -> combat stance state that leave you exposed (or at least unable to actively parry / strike) would make running in active combat something you wouldn't want to do except in very few cases (approaching an archers while trying to avoid his arrows for example).

Lastly, the maximum turning speed should be lowered while running in general. You can't nearly turn as fast as you can when walking, than when running.

That would result in players engaging in fights, maybe with an initial clash after running into each-other, and running again only if one is fleeing.

But I can already hear people complaining about how fighting with the current stepping animations and very risky and unrewarding running will turn the characters into trucks.

Obviously, having less control over how your character moves is never good in a game, and usually games which lack heavily on the point, fail to have a good gameplay.

So the player has to be rewarded for being for static on his feet. Rewarded to the point where all of the "forcing" part wouldn't really be needed for players to not run around all the time.

This part is much simpler : adding to simple stepping, allow players to quickly "dodge" to a side (ALL sides, backward, forward included). "Dodging" would make you move in a direction in one or two steps animation, but otherwise quickly and far enough for it to be relevant. In one dodge backward or forward you should be able to get out of reach of most weapons, and in one dodge left or right you should be quick enough to not get hit by overheads and thrusts. Of course, dodging would cost stamina as to prevent people from spamming it. And again, of course, factor in the weight of the equipment for dodging distance / stamina cost, so that lighter armored players still have a significant mobility advantage against heavier armored players.

A game that does that VERY well is "Examina" (look it up if you don't know about it). In this game, while in "combat mode", you can only do small steps and dodging, and most of the time, a well time dodge allows you to get away from an incoming blow, and most of the time have the opportunity to strike back (I will surely record a video to show it to you guys, but until I do, I recommend you go see some gameplay, and you will see what I mean).

This, added to the extra immersion and realism and usefulness of team / formation fighting, would, I believe (I could very well be wrong here) be good technically for an MMO. Why ? Think about it : lag in games like Mount & Blade warband, Chivalry.. (games where you are very mobile) make people teleport all the time, and thus ping matters a HELL of a lot more to do well.

Having players be a lot more static in combat would thus make ping matter less, because it will make less of a difference if the other player's position on your screen is updated every 50 ms or 150 ms or even 200 ms, unless they dodge all the time, but then the advantage is offset by the loss of stamina.

And that "gain" in trying to make ping matter less, leaves room for more complex, animation / physics based combat.

But in the end, it all comes down to one choice in that regard : do you want combats that look like Mortal Online's combat, or more like Examina's ? (Know that I did play Mortal Online VERY recently so I know what I'm talking about).

The debate is opened.. !
Last edited by Hoshiqua on 10 Dec 2015, 16:23, edited 1 time in total.


Redemptor81
 
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Re: Character's Mobility in PvP

Post by Redemptor81 » 20 Oct 2015, 18:30

Atm I don't watched assassin's class that usually is the best choise of mobility and instant Dps :D (and dual wilde as well)

Hope they will implement dodge and backstab too :D

Sorry damn , Daoc is in my heart as well hahahahah ,

and dodge is the best awesome singurality I have seen in Eso .

If we mix some Mortal and Eso here , will be the Best Title ever imo.

Formation as well , are for Mmo final release maybe, for massive pvp .

Never tested in 10 days atm :D

Regards.

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Ishamael
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Re: Character's Mobility in PvP

Post by Ishamael » 20 Oct 2015, 19:31

One little nugget, you still get speed bonus on damage with overhead attack. ;)

I hope that the dev team are play testing the proposed changes. I have lots of Ideas for combat builds but it's not till I test it out on my own private server that I can tell if it's viable.

Point being, a lot of game design is making interesting things that sound good then actually checking if they work when you add it to the game. I hope the devs understand the combat system better than all of us. Sometimes when you think some game mechanic is broken, you simply don't understand it in the context of the system as a whole.

I'm excited to see development chugging along and am happily anticipating new combat changes.
"Yes, Betrayer of Hope. They gave me the name to revile me, but I will yet make them kneel and worship it."
—Ishamael

Dovie'andi se tovya sagain.


AlexGrivas
 
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Re: Character's Mobility in PvP

Post by AlexGrivas » 20 Oct 2015, 19:37

i think exanima combat is nice i played exanima for like 40 hours now its combat is very very good

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RoboSenshi
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Re: Character's Mobility in PvP

Post by RoboSenshi » 20 Oct 2015, 22:25

Agreed. Combat stance speed needs to be reduced but players shouldn't be reward for being static. In a fight you need to be constantly moving otherwise you'll make a great target. Fighters can be static in a shield wall situation and if that arises we should let the game mechanics reward the players. Footwork and movement should be important in combat and atm it's very exploitable and unrealistic.

Rather than granting benefits for players that are static, why not just make the stamina regen for running in combat stance really really slow. The problem I'm seeing is this: people run around in combat and then their stamina gets really low. Which is good and realistic but then 1-2 seconds later it's back to full strength and they can rinse and repeat over and over again. If you check any combat footage and pay attention to the player's stamina you can see it. I've always had the opinion that stamina regen shouldn't be constant. Based of the activity that you do your stamina should regen at different rates. Maybe it shouldn't be exactly as I suggested but some kind of variation on an overhaul of combat stamina management would work imo.

As for the quick dodge movements, I think it could work if done right. However if it was to be implemented you would have to determine the speed of the doge based off the players stats and armor. It could get complex.


Hoshiqua
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Re: Character's Mobility in PvP

Post by Hoshiqua » 20 Oct 2015, 22:59

Ofc, by "being static" I do not mean "completly static" but rather "more static than right now" (not running past the guy you're fighting all the time).

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Burni
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Re: Character's Mobility in PvP

Post by Burni » 22 Oct 2015, 01:51

Well atm the best defence is to stay out of enemys reach and "duke" him to make swing that will miss you to both use up his stamina and to then allow yourself to go for a swing.

The problem with reducing mobility and making the fight more "static" is that atm it will automaticly favour anyone in heavy armor or especially with a shield as parrying dosnt work so when you take out mobilty the fights become brawls where you just trade blows untill one of you drops...

Sure dodge mechanic would help with this but you can allready dodge by simply moving your character? I dont see the need for actualy ability that would make you do dodging animation like for example in chivalry with man at arms class and that kind of dodge ability would atually result in even faster movement in combat compared to current fights where your movements are restricted by innertia.
This would also lead in more "lag problems" where the other player dodges the blow but other player sees it connect but just pass through the enemy before he manages to dodge or otherway around.


I do agree that when your running your character should turn slower this would be good thing to add but still not make it too high. I mean the running here is not "full speed running" its more like jogging or simiar and its not that hard to change your running direction when going at that speed.


To me the first thing to "fix" in combat should be removing the move out ability as that would reduce the overall movement speed in fights and would prevent guys in full plate armed with huge warhammer being faster than light armored guy armed with a sword...

Othervise i think we should just wait and see how they changing the combat when they "improve it".


Hoshiqua
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Re: Character's Mobility in PvP

Post by Hoshiqua » 27 Oct 2015, 17:05

Well atm the best defence is to stay out of enemys reach and "duke" him to make swing that will miss you to both use up his stamina and to then allow yourself to go for a swing.


Yea, it can work pretty well but duking doesn't work against skilled fighters, or it only works once. So you can't really rely on that, and thus you start running around just to avoid getting hit too much.

The problem with reducing mobility and making the fight more "static" is that atm it will automaticly favour anyone in heavy armor or especially with a shield as parrying dosnt work so when you take out mobilty the fights become brawls where you just trade blows untill one of you drops...

Sure dodge mechanic would help with this but you can allready dodge by simply moving your character? I dont see the need for actualy ability that would make you do dodging animation like for example in chivalry with man at arms class and that kind of dodge ability would atually result in even faster movement in combat compared to current fights where your movements are restricted by innertia.


"Dodging" as I described doesn't need to be as "sudden" as the one MAAs can do in Chivalry. Hell, it doesn't even have to be an ability at all, just a big, quick step to a side like in Examina.

Faster movement in that case ? I doubt it, or only in fights where the fighters use an extremely mobile fighting style. If they have no armor, I don't see that as a problem really, as long as armored people / weak people (most people let's say) can't do the same.

Remember that the goal is to not have combats where it is crucial to avoid hits by running around. You shouldn't have to actually turn around and run to evade an attack coming from the front. Right now, simply stepping is not reliable, because it's not fast enough.

This would also lead in more "lag problems" where the other player dodges the blow but other player sees it connect but just pass through the enemy before he manages to dodge or otherway around.


That is already much the case, depending on your connexion quality with the server, and will be more of a problem in the future.. imagine a big MMO battle (50 v 50) where everyone just runs around. It's going to be a mess.

I do agree that when your running your character should turn slower this would be good thing to add but still not make it too high. I mean the running here is not "full speed running" its more like jogging or simiar and its not that hard to change your running direction when going at that speed.


How much we actually slow the characters doesn't matter - only the concept does, so I'm happy that you agree. Maybe slow down the speed (how fast you go forward I mean) when turning too fast ?

To me the first thing to "fix" in combat should be removing the move out ability as that would reduce the overall movement speed in fights and would prevent guys in full plate armed with huge warhammer being faster than light armored guy armed with a sword...


I could not agree less. This is one of the ability that make no sense, AND kill gameplay. Good from neither the realism point of view or the gamey point of view, the worst possible. :D

Othervise i think we should just wait and see how they changing the combat when they "improve it".


Well, I feel it's very important to keep criticizing, as to "pressure" them in not fucking up. Would be good, also, if people could express their own ideas for changes / additions more. Sure, it may not be very wise to do so when the combat system is not finished, but then people will say "It is too late to change that". Plus, I (and other people I hope) only think with informations that I have, that are more or less confirmed.

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