Life is Feudal Official Forum

[Erza]

Actually with skill cap lower than 600 say 400 you would be done really fast with your chores and would have more time doing the fun raiding and fighting.

So there

However there is a catch to this only big guilds will get anywhere as now you need a lot of people just to be able to get done all that needs to be done. 8ish people to cover everything. Count in afks you now need fairly large guild to be able to do all 24/7. This will deter a lot of close nit buddies playing in smaller groups unless of course they buy multiple characters.

To be honest im glad its low because from what i have seen most players are frealoaders who dont wanna help just take. This aspect has the chance to get way worse in the MMO as a lot of noobs will show up at the same time. My experience has been you have few hardcore people doing 80ish% of the work rest are reaping the rewards with not much helping. This is where small tight groups form because they are hard working and can get stuff done fast and they will be forced to buy more toons but hey honestly i personally dont care to do that .

[Khan-]

yes but you'll have to buy them all... not sure everyone will pay another character only for getting all the jobs...


and you must know that the skill progression will be slower than now at x1...

[Sharana]

[quote="Khan-Bjornsen"]that's not what they want you to do... they want you to play in community
/quote]

There is very big difference between 600 cap now and 400 cap in the new tree. Forcing you to play in a community is good as it's doing it with 600 cap too. Theoretically you can be self sufficient as group of 4, but that will be masochism, because you have to invest a lot more gaming hours and you won't be able to defend yourself with 4 players, so the game is made to be played in a community even with the current tree and 600 cap.

The thing is that your vision that smith for example shouldn't mine is extremely unrealistic one. That's the hard part of his job, the smithing itself is easy autoclicking process and won't get better with minigames as you don't need quality or faster process when leveling afk or alt tab. When someone plays a farmer he is expected to provide food and leathers which means he is taking care of the animals and of the farm to have the raw materials - that's the more time consuming job. The blacksmith is expected to provide armors/weapons and metal parts for the builder/carpenter, but most of his time is invested in finding the metal, making a tunnel, mining the ore, processing it and bringing it back, the forging itself takes much less time. So splitting this profession in half is very unfair and there won't be many volunteers to simply mine for someone who will later run autoclicker and level his skill with the metal they were mining several hours. Same with farming/cooking. Or preventing the alchemist to gather his herbas. It simply doesn't make any sense at all.

So if they really split the profession in 2 with lower cap they will force the majority to create second charters for the raw materials professions and feed their main charters or settle for such raw materials profession in a bigger community as it will already have enough of the easier producing professions and won't need more. And that sounds like a cash grab to me.

[Erza]

There indeed are huge gaps in effort and time invested in running certain trees.

For example this tree:

Artisan > Construction > Masonry > Architecture

Is ridiculously easy as compared to this one:

Hunting > Animal Lore > Procuration > Tailoring


In the first case you lvl it and you are done all you gotto do after that is beat the structure with a hammer thats it.

The second one not so much. And there are more disparities like this.


For example:

Natures Lore > Farming > Advanced Farming > Cooking
Hunting > Animal Lore > Procuration > Tailoring

People running these trees will have timers to wait on, having to log on at certain times or all work is in vain and a neverending chore of farming/feeding animals.

It doesnt even compare to already mention rediculously easy hardly any work required:


Artisan > Construction > Masonry > Architecture


What im implying here is that people doing the hard chores get discouraged when they see how much effort it takes and its like second job. Who wants to play a game for a second job? And they get to listen to someone bragging about how they can make bows. LOL

And so lower cap might help some with less chores required per character but than you gotto be part of a big guild or you getting nowhere thats not that great either. Because even if you buy multiple characters to be able to make everything you still only have so many people to fight. I dont know that it is a good thing to end up with big guilds everywhere. Sounds like stalemate cause now everyone has a lot to lose if they fight . Add to it the challenge of a new guild building up later after the big ones are established. Just thinking loud here.

[Dragmar]

However there is a catch to this only big guilds will get anywhere as now you need a lot of people just to be able to get done all that needs to be done. 8ish people to cover everything. Count in afks you now need fairly large guild to be able to do all 24/7. This will deter a lot of close nit buddies playing in smaller groups unless of course they buy multiple characters.

There is very big difference between 600 cap now and 400 cap in the new tree. Forcing you to play in a community is good as it's doing it with 600 cap too. Theoretically you can be self sufficient as group of 4, but that will be masochism, because you have to invest a lot more gaming hours and you won't be able to defend yourself with 4 players, so the game is made to be played in a community even with the current tree and 600 cap.

There is very big difference between 600 cap now and 400 cap in the new tree. Forcing you to play in a community is good as it's doing it with 600 cap too. Theoretically you can be self sufficient as group of 4, but that will be masochism, because you have to invest a lot more gaming hours and you won't be able to defend yourself with 4 players, so the game is made to be played in a community even with the current tree and 600 cap.

By the sound of things you guys seem to think that anything above 5-8 members is a big guild. You have to remember that this is a game deliberatly designed around the notion of big communities. The diversity in both combat and PvE roles and the fact that the devs want 200vs200 combat should tell you that.

And last I checked your guild will need atleast 10 (correct me if Im wrong) members to even be able to claim a town, not even mention a country. So the idea that you should be able to manage a community with less then 10 ppl is rediculus.

Yes, if you set up a personal claim and want to do your own little thing with a farmplot and a few houses, that's legit, but you would have to pay someone else to build the buildings for you, buy your tools from someone, etc, etc.

[Damlet]

Against less skill points, better! More companions will help!

In addition Bobik would say ... Life IS Feudal!

[Sharana]

By the sound of things you guys seem to think that anything above 5-8 members is a big guild. You have to remember that this is a game deliberatly designed around the notion of big communities. The diversity in both combat and PvE roles and the fact that the devs want 200vs200 combat should tell you that.

And last I checked your guild will need atleast 10 (correct me if Im wrong) members to even be able to claim a town, not even mention a country. So the idea that you should be able to manage a community with less then 10 ppl is rediculus.

Yes, if you set up a personal claim and want to do your own little thing with a farmplot and a few houses, that's legit, but you would have to pay someone else to build the buildings for you, buy your tools from someone, etc, etc.

No, big guild starts at 40+ for me and I'm part of such. My whole point was that spliting the current professions in raw matherial collecting (mining for example) and production (forging/armorsmithing) is very bad idea and very unfair in time/effort invested and will force many to create mining charters for example and mine the metal, because the blacksmith now is expected to mine and not simply wait for metal to make few clicks and forge the stuff needed. You will hardly find many volunteers who would like to be mining all the time for someone else back in the castle who will later run autoclicker and level his skill with the iron they mined all day.
Forgingis more of a reward for the time spent on mining the metal and transporting it back then actually main job on it's own. Do you consider it logical if you take the gathering away from the alchemy and expect someone else to be collecting herbs all day for the Alchemist to simply use them?

The farming was very time consuming and it was very fair towards the farmers that it's split in 2 now - farming+cooking and procuration+tailoring. Now some will take care of the farm and cooking while others will take care of the animals as they are very time consuming too. The vision of Khan that smith shouldn't mine for metal is like saying Tailor shouldn't prepare the leathers with Procuration and Cook shouldn't work on the farm. I (and many other btw) find that extremely unrealistic, because providing the raw materials is way more time consuming then making a final product and that's why professions shouldn't be splitted in such way.

[Dragmar]

My whole point was that spliting the current professions in raw matherial collecting (mining for example) and production (forging/armorsmithing) is very bad idea and very unfair in time/effort invested and will force many to create mining charters for example and mine the metal, because the blacksmith now is expected to mine and not simply wait for metal to make few clicks and forge the stuff needed.

The way I see it Blacksmiths of any kind would take both the forging and the mining line, then it would diversify from there. Some of them will choose to specialize in jewelcrafting while others focus on armorsmithing.

To me that's a good way of doing it. You're making the proffecions similar in the early stage of the skill line, but giving them the option to diversify in the end of the lines.

Yes, you will not be able to be the best jewelcrafter and the best armorsmith at the same time, but that is a choice you have to make. Gives you a bigger chance to adjust your character to your own preferced playstyle.

[Jeannedarc]

To me that's a good way of doing it. You're making the proffecions similar in the early stage of the skill line, but giving them the option to diversify in the end of the lines.

Yes, you will not be able to be the best jewelcrafter and the best armorsmith at the same time, but that is a choice you have to make.

Basically this ^^

To me the new lines give more flexibility, whilst preventing people from taking the whole line of what was the old skill tree. This is a much better change, and as such I do not think the skill cap needs an increase. People will just have too specialize more, which is a change i welcome. Gone are the days of too many cooks.

[AfLIcTeD]

I don't think there is anything wrong with the skill tree and skill cap (except forestry). It gives alot more fexibilty, you can either be a armoursmith or a weapon/tool smith instead of having to do both now. I do think though that you should be able to choose to do bowcrafting or engineering and not have to do both.

I also don't think blacksmiths should have to mine their own ores, you tell a blacksmith he has to go get his own ore when he has got to supply weapons, armour and tools for 30+ people. If you choose mining and don't go mine ore for the smith then it is your group that suffers. Who cares which profession is easiest. It's called teamwork.

[Jairone]

I don't think there is anything wrong with the skill tree and skill cap (except forestry). It gives alot more fexibilty, you can either be a armoursmith or a weapon/tool smith instead of having to do both now. I do think though that you should be able to choose to do bowcrafting or engineering and not have to do both.

I also don't think blacksmiths should have to mine their own ores, you tell a blacksmith he has to go get his own ore when he has got to supply weapons, armour and tools for 30+ people. If you choose mining and don't go mine ore for the smith then it is your group that suffers. Who cares which profession is easiest. It's called teamwork.

This so very much. If you are part of a good group, they will recognize the efforts you put in. If you aren't, you start looking for another group. That is what will make the difference between people willing to do the hard tasks or not.

Additionally with realms and coinage the prices will be based on player demand here, not just what each thing would actually cost. If there is almost nobody harvesting ore and you have a coin based system in play, then the ore and metal equipment will cost a fortune. At which point people will want to mine for the money, and shift from other tasks. In the end it will balance out.

There's a lot to making the setups work, and I think the newer style is a move in the right direction. You can still do some things solo, and you can contribute to a community on your own time... but you need a community to do much without massive headaches. That's the ideal balance for a social MMO like this.

[Erza]

By the sound of things you guys seem to think that anything above 5-8 members is a big guild. You have to remember that this is a game deliberatly designed around the notion of big communities. The diversity in both combat and PvE roles and the fact that the devs want 200vs200 combat should tell you that.

I think 50+ is a big guild. But from what im gathering that might turn out to be too small to make it in the MMO because it seems numbers will be decisive. So in the end it might be just big mega guilds. I hope not but thats where im seeing it going.

Part of the problem might be that the most vocal people the devs deal with are guild leaders or people in some kind of guild leading role with time on their hands trying to tweak the outcome to their needs. That is not your average player need.

That said there are still too many variables, its too soon and not enough thorough info. Im prety confident the devs will figure it out for the better. Some sort of 3way GW2 style might prevent big guild buddies stalemate stuff may be.

As far as the trees, well ye dont expect too many people to be too thrilled about trees that dont offer any end reward product of some sort and are merely just being someones biatch.

Especially when being someone elses biatch is quite often way more work/effort than the guy making the end product thinking how cool he is.

[Eldurian]

I say the combat tree should be no more than 700 keeping the combat skill tree limited has two major effects.

1. It allows people to become PvP viable faster.
2. It requires you to put more thought into your combat "build."

However I've heard proposed, and generally like the idea of a "softcap" on skill points. Something along these lines.

0-600 normal progression
600-900 50% progression
900-1200 25% progression
1200-1500 12.5% progression
1500-1800 6.25% progression

etc.

Personally I'm not afraid of "One person doing everything" on the crafting end of things. Game's like Wurm Online have demonstrated that long enough progression and detailed enough crafting tend to see village members gravitate toward roles simply because of the fact that time is a real limitation.

Second "one person doing everything" is not a viable model in a Full Loot PvP MMO because one person is generally not an effective force and one person is even less capable of defending a settlement.

Third having such limited skillsets means that in a small village if a character leaves your village your village is now without a cook/smith/builder etc. This can lead to A LOT of frustration for smaller groups.

Fourth, I don't know why game's are so obsessed with marginalizing solo play. There are a lot of players who prefer to play alone or in very small groups. Heavily punishing these players only restricts the market for your product. The only MMO I can think of that makes solo play as hard as LiF is Mortal Online, and I know for me I ended up giving up on the game too early to get hooked into a group every time I tried it. That was largely due to bugs and racial imbalances but it was largely because I wanted to explore the political climate more in depth before hooking into a group, but the game was no fun as a solo player. Where games like Darkfall and Wurm that really should be played as a group but don't actively seek to restrict solo play, I played alone as long as I was comfortable. I've spend thousands more hours on those games than MO.

[Stianos]

I say the combat tree should be no more than 700 keeping the combat skill tree limited has two major effects.

1. It allows people to become PvP viable faster.
2. It requires you to put more thought into your combat "build."

However I've heard proposed, and generally like the idea of a "softcap" on skill points. Something along these lines.

0-600 normal progression
600-900 50% progression
900-1200 25% progression
1200-1500 12.5% progression
1500-1800 6.25% progression

etc.

Personally I'm not afraid of "One person doing everything" on the crafting end of things. Game's like Wurm Online have demonstrated that long enough progression and detailed enough crafting tend to see village members gravitate toward roles simply because of the fact that time is a real limitation.

Second "one person doing everything" is not a viable model in a Full Loot PvP MMO because one person is generally not an effective force and one person is even less capable of defending a settlement.

Third having such limited skillsets means that in a small village if a character leaves your village your village is now without a cook/smith/builder etc. This can lead to A LOT of frustration for smaller groups.

Fourth, I don't know why game's are so obsessed with marginalizing solo play. There are a lot of players who prefer to play alone or in very small groups. Heavily punishing these players only restricts the market for your product. The only MMO I can think of that makes solo play as hard as LiF is Mortal Online, and I know for me I ended up giving up on the game too early to get hooked into a group every time I tried it. That was largely due to bugs and racial imbalances but it was largely because I wanted to explore the political climate more in depth before hooking into a group, but the game was no fun as a solo player. Where games like Darkfall and Wurm that really should be played as a group but don't actively seek to restrict solo play, I played alone as long as I was comfortable. I've spend thousands more hours on those games than MO.

I actually really like this idea. This game should try to learn from the other successful games of this type. +1

[Aout]

I say the combat tree should be no more than 700 keeping the combat skill tree limited has two major effects.

1. It allows people to become PvP viable faster.
2. It requires you to put more thought into your combat "build."

However I've heard proposed, and generally like the idea of a "softcap" on skill points. Something along these lines.

0-600 normal progression
600-900 50% progression
900-1200 25% progression
1200-1500 12.5% progression
1500-1800 6.25% progression

etc.

Personally I'm not afraid of "One person doing everything" on the crafting end of things. Game's like Wurm Online have demonstrated that long enough progression and detailed enough crafting tend to see village members gravitate toward roles simply because of the fact that time is a real limitation.

Second "one person doing everything" is not a viable model in a Full Loot PvP MMO because one person is generally not an effective force and one person is even less capable of defending a settlement.

Third having such limited skillsets means that in a small village if a character leaves your village your village is now without a cook/smith/builder etc. This can lead to A LOT of frustration for smaller groups.

Fourth, I don't know why game's are so obsessed with marginalizing solo play. There are a lot of players who prefer to play alone or in very small groups. Heavily punishing these players only restricts the market for your product. The only MMO I can think of that makes solo play as hard as LiF is Mortal Online, and I know for me I ended up giving up on the game too early to get hooked into a group every time I tried it. That was largely due to bugs and racial imbalances but it was largely because I wanted to explore the political climate more in depth before hooking into a group, but the game was no fun as a solo player. Where games like Darkfall and Wurm that really should be played as a group but don't actively seek to restrict solo play, I played alone as long as I was comfortable. I've spend thousands more hours on those games than MO.

I certainly get where you are coming from. With LiF specifically, I have the impression, regardless of how much skillpoints you've got, group play is still heavily encouraged. Even on servers with 3000 skill cap, I would not want to build a base all by myself. I would not want to be 100% self sufficient since it seems there are so many things to do I'd spend all my time harvesting, hauling, digging, ..., eating.

I would still like to see incentive for trade between different groups/areas. Though, I think clever resource distribution can encourage just that, I'm not sure how one could accomplish that with LiF. Afaik, there is only Iron, Copper and precious metal, a handful of different trees, and clay. All of it will arguably be just about equally easily available all across the Map. That's not to say that a skill cap should be that incentive, so I may have wandered a few steps off topic.

[Docere]

I m testing the new skill tree right now. And i have to say that for as far as i got i m pretty content with the changes. The skillcap is good as it is forces l you too specialize yourself, you got to make choices.

To split the skills in basic and specialized is wrong, like a lot of people before said it s not fair against those who do the hard jobs (farming/mining). I already made all professions in game and there are big differences between them in terms of effort and time that you have to put in.

For me the most time consuming and restricting job is farmer, you have time shedules to respect to sow or feed animals and that s a lot of work the only satisfaction that you have is that the village would be screwed without you so if you take away the satisfaction to give food/clothes to your guys how many would still play as farmer?

I didn t tested the pvp branch so i can t say anything about it right now

Ps: could you pls insert spoilers if you quote a whole reply ?

[Eldurian]

@Auot. The skill tree does promote trade between smaller villages but it does nothing to promote trade between large cities. 5 players can't do everything, but 100 can. Easily. If I remember right the minimum needed to cover everything with 100s in each skill is 8 players.

You touched on the solution to that, and that's localized resources. Minerals are the big ones currently in that you can localize pretty heavily with the existing mechanics.

They need to go further than that though. Untameable animals that drop specific things such as tusks from a walrus or elephant, or poison from a scorpion or frog. Trees that can only grow in specific areas of the map, alchemy/farmable components only found in certain areas, crops that can only grow in specific areas of the map etc.

Then add some new items made with these special materials or have them give special properties to existing items.

That will prompt the kind of trade you are looking for.