Life is Feudal Official Forum

[Archaegeo]

Currently the wiki states that a Realm is a claim up to 170m radius.

Within that claim, " The only advantage with these types of claims is that guild leaders can grant and revoke rights for personal claims to any player on that territory. In other words, a guild leader can decide who can reside on these lands and who can not."

Bobik provided the following answer in IRC today:
"<@Bobik> What about: <Archaegeo> "In the event of a war between claim owner's guild and attacker's guild, objects on a personal claim may be used and damaged. " - SO if im not in a guild, things on my claim are always safe?
<@Bobik> Yes, you are safe unless your personal claim will be covered by some guild's claim"

I THINK he meant to say you are safe unless your personal claim IS covered by some guild's claim.

But the way he wrote it, a 10 person guild could drop a Realm Monument (170m radius) over my personal claim and then evict me from it.

If that is the case, the game will lose a LOT of solo and small group (less than guild size) players.

Noone wants to do the work to terraform and build a 18m personal claim, get it looking good, and then have a Realm claim be dropped over them and they lose their work due to a game mechanic.

I understand that right now a guild cannot declare war on an unguilded character, and thus cannot attack an unguilded characters personal claim.

But the solution cannot be to allow a realm marker to be dropped and give eminent domain to existing claims now encompassed by its radius.

[Telakh]

This is a feudal world imitation. If some guild decides to claim the land, who are you to go against, if you are not a member of a kingdom?
I can't speak for everyone, but I'd say the less hermits there will be, the better for community. They are too boring to play with. The game shoud be the quintessence of collective gameplay

[Raxx]

here's a suggestion

If a personal claim becomes touched by a kingdom or clan claim, the owner will automatically get a choice. He can chose to

1. Pay a small tax fee to the owner clan, and keep his holding

2. Decide he does not want to pay taxes, but that will make his claim accessable also to the clan or kingdom owners. He won't lose it but he will be forced to share it with them

3. OR simply have the clan have to lay siege to the claim so that both parts can fight for it

[Archaegeo]

We are just saying that if you want the land my claim is on, you should have to kick me off it by force or coercion.

Not just by dropping a token.

[Bobik]

here's a suggestion

If a personal claim becomes touched by a kingdom or clan claim, the owner will automatically get a choice. He can chose to

1. Pay a small tax fee to the owner clan, and keep his holding

2. Decide he does not want to pay taxes, but that will make his claim accessable also to the clan or kingdom owners. He won't lose it but he will be forced to share it with them

We will not do game mechanics for that really. More options can be possible, for instance:
- personal claim owner must fight in battles of that guild in order to save his claim, but nothing more
- owner must call guild leader "Your Highness" in every message
- owner must provide them with 2 bastard swords a week

My point that there can be REALLY a lot of options, how Guild leader and personal claim owner will settle that question and what kind of agreement they will make. It is really NOT a sandbox style to limit those options with some artificial ones.

And if you want to protect your land - get yourself a guild claim that will protect it. Find some guild that will look for more inhabitants. or a guild that will give its lands for rent or make your own.

Anyway, if someone had created a guild and invested a good amount of time to build a monument there (it will NOT be just a deed->double click->*poof*-> a new guild claim) only to harass you and strip you from your lands - well, you seems had deserved it for some reason

[Siegbert]

Uhh, I like this aspect of personal bond to guild owners which is really the way feudalism worked:
You're lord of some territory and once a powerful military leader shows up who is superior to you both are more likely to close a contract of subordination rather than driving you off the land or killing you.

I feel this game could really live up to its title.

[Archaegeo]

The problem is that it means at any point in time your claim can be destroyed once the realm is in place.

Which means you are at the whims of your feudal lord.

And while fun if you are the feudal lord, it was never very fun for the peasant

In LiF, it means you can work a claim, terraforming and building it up to look and be what you want, and then have it taken away from you with little to nothing you can do about it.

Bobik explained that the monuments take resources and time to build, but you cannot destroy them, so once started, unless the builders give up, they will finish and then can kick you off your claim.

Solo and small group players just need to be aware of this potential loss of hours of work.

[Wrekkoning]

- owner must call guild leader "Your Highness" in every message

Yea...


That has a nice ring to it doesn't it Arrakis

[Siegbert]

The problem is that it means at any point in time your claim can be destroyed once the realm is in place.

Which means you are at the whims of your feudal lord.

And while fun if you are the feudal lord, it was never very fun for the peasant

You wouldn't be a peasant, I take it. You would be a vassal and land lord of your fief.
That basically meant you were in charge of mostly everything that happens on your land. If your liege needed your military service you had be partake.

I don't know if that's desirable in LiF as it's merely a forced alliance, but life, as Bobik likes to say, IS feudal ;P

[Telakh]

Take EVE as an example of no-laws self-organised system. Hermits and family size communities find their place working for large corporations in their sectors.

There will be no place for hermits in LiF as well since nothing will protect them and so they will be forced to become vassals and build relations with counties, kingdoms and guilds.
And those guilds who manage organize their relations with neigbours will become more prosperous than noob-raiding guilds.

This system worked great in H&H and the only problem was poor social interface as it was hard to control and manage contacts, access rights and relations.

[Archaegeo]

The big problem I have is the loss of terraformed time.

As Bobik explained it in IRC yesterday, when someone starts building a realm monument its not an instant think, so you will get time.

During that time you can either:
1) work out an arrangement with them
2) try to limit their ability to get resources to the monument to complete it
3) pack up and move
4) Prior to that get enough people to form your own town/realm. (Not viable for solo/small groups (husband/wife teams)

Option 1 is great, until there is some shift in guild politics or your land is needed and suddenly you are booted with no warning.

Option 2 might work if you have enough people to make the 10 man guild unable to complete the monument.

Option 3 lets you save your stuff, but then you lose all your terraforming work.

The other choice you have is to build where no one wants (hopefully) or you can rent space around the capital city, but that's real life fundage.

[Telakh]

Nope. The only option is is to join a guild OR find a reliable guild to rent a land from.
Settle with no guild around is not an option becaouse you will have NO guarantees that some agressive guild will not settle close to your homestead.

No matter how long the guild monument is being constructed, you will have 24 hours to pack an move if the guild leader decides to remove your claim. This process is not instant.

[Protunia]

It has to be that way or people will just plant a bunch of small personal claims and block kingdoms from even forming and being able to be in the game.

One thing about those renting land around the main city it will be unable to be attacked ever.

Also what if a Kingdom makes a claim that overlaps another Kingdom's claim area? Will they be required to move? Or is this even possible?

It would seem if personal land claims can be over lapped than so should realm claims territory when founded or as they expand.

These realm claims can expand as well over time so planting a personal claim near a newly formed realm would be a bad idea as they can easily cover personal claims later on.

Realm Claim

0 cells with a Tier 1 guild Monument

Approx. 2,500 cells wide (Town claim area is excluded). Circular areas within a radius of 90 meters from Tier 2 guild Fine Monument

Approx. 7,500 cells wide (Town claim area is excluded). Circular areas within a radius of 120 meters from Tier 3 guild Great Monument

Approx. 18,850 cells wide (Town claim area is excluded). Circular areas within a radius of 170 meters from Tier 4 guild Glorious Monument

A plot of a land that is the property of a guild and its leader. There is NO protection for movable and unmovable objects on that type of claim and no access rights can be set. The only advantage with these types of claims is that guild leaders can grant and revoke rights for personal claims to any player on that territory. In other words, a guild leader can decide who can reside on these lands and who can not.

Trespassing on a realm claim can not be punished with an alignment loss, but still will turn a trespasser into a criminal.

[Telakh]

what if a Kingdom makes a claim that overlaps another Kingdom's claim area? Will they be required to move? Or is this even possible?

If a guild claim grows back to back with another guild claim, they will have a strait border between them, instead if circular around the monument.

[Archaegeo]

Yeah, guilds can declare war to remove the blocking guild if needed.

[Zennoya]

I liked the system from Salem The Game -> claims there are expanded by "buying" tiles. F.E. each claim tile costs 5s to buy, and 1s monthly to upkeep + 150s to create claim itself. So in this way claim 10x10 costs player 150s + 500s and 100s upkeep monthly.

If town (newly created or expanded) starts to cover personal claim area, than claim owner keeps his claim rights, and its treaten as "personal property in town". He is also auto-granted with town rights.

But if town mayor want that guy out, he has to pay claim value (only land, so in this example case its 650s), and claim owner has 24h to take his stuff and go. Everything that stays on claim is town property after 24h.

In this way claim owner is protected from guilds stealing his property, and guilds can always get rid of unwanted citizens.

[Archaegeo]

But the claim owner still loses all of his terraforming work and there is nothing he can do about it.

That work can be very significant if anything like Wurm.

Now all that being said, this is how its going to be, but making the conquering region pay for existing claims in the area would be nice, but since, to my knowledge, we don't buy claims in LiF, that may be moot.

[EiresJason]

I think the way it is currently is the best. We all know these sort of hardcore games usually attract some real cunts that will pay for the game and then spend hours on it a day just to annoy everyone else playing it.

I reckon without the possibility of a guild to remove 'personal claims', there would be too much trolling.

Though, ofcourse not every single game attracts annoying trolls (though most of LiF players will be past DFUW/MO players) but we will see how it works out.

[Archaegeo]

Eires,

You discount the griefer guilds who will troll personal claim holders. Find a nice grouping within 170m of each other, bam, tick off numerous people at once.

[EiresJason]

Eires,

You discount the griefer guilds who will troll personal claim holders. Find a nice grouping within 170m of each other, bam, tick off numerous people at once.

Yeah I know some guilds will be out there to troll others by placing guild claims on personal claims (I was going to mention it in the previous post but I forgot too).

[Protunia]

Eires,

You discount the griefer guilds who will troll personal claim holders. Find a nice grouping within 170m of each other, bam, tick off numerous people at once.

Yeah I know some guilds will be out there to troll others by placing guild claims on personal claims (I was going to mention it in the previous post but I forgot too).

Well the nice grouping should "group" together and make a realm claim...

This is a PvP game after all and protecting non PvP groups would also lead to greifing the other way around.

I like the Fact LiF does offer houses and land for those who do not want to PvP, but want to be involved in the economy, trade, etc....although at a cost because those area's are completely safe.

I mean there could be no options at all.

[Neosn]

I don't understand. Everyone thinks that full pvp is a great idea, and diplomacy will always occur and everyone will be happy. What I don't understand is, what prevents this from being a grief oriented game,( A.K.A. Rust)

[Roycelbaker]

This is a feudal world imitation. If some guild decides to claim the land, who are you to go against, if you are not a member of a kingdom?
I can't speak for everyone, but I'd say the less hermits there will be, the better for community. They are too boring to play with. The game shoud be the quintessence of collective gameplay

If this is a sandbox game why couldn't I be a hermit if i wanted to?

[Archaegeo]

Many of those of us concerned about this aren't so much concerned about the stealing of your claim so much as you just build a monument to do it.

We cant burn it down or destroy it while its being built, so unless we can stop their resources 24/7, it will come to pass.

And many say that's fine, but it will limit appeal of solo and small group players.

(And to those who say that type of player should band together and form a realm, you've seen the politics in a solid guild, imagine in one where suddenly everyone is booted cause the leader has a bad day)

[Protunia]

I will bet you that there will be area's no one will want to put a realm area.......Hermits will have to find these type area's and will not be living in Prime area's where guild's will want to be at and Fight over.

Also if you have 10-30+ players wanting to spend time to build these monuments you got bigger problems than then them forcing your tiny 18x18m claim out of the way.

Also there will be "Good" Kingdoms that will let people come and move into their Realm and develop a claim as part of their Kingdom.

So there will be more than a few options for players.

[Kdchan]

Bobik is absolutely right, is a sandbox, if you build your home somewhere and a guild claim that land, or you make a deal with the new owner or you can be destroyed and lose all.

This is how things should be in a free for all enviroment, soloers shouldn't be a true option in a game like this. Solo is a playstile for criminals and pkers, for non social players, or for player that want to play in hard mode, neutral and normal players can build their home into the claim of their guilds and friends.

This ruleset work as intended, i find stupid and ridiculous that i can't claim a land and build my empirie how i want because there is unguilded player with an house inside it.

[Kdchan]

If this is a sandbox game why couldn't I be a hermit if i wanted to?

You can do whatever you want but if a guild want the land where you build your home you will lose it, play as a lonewolf is not easy, is a harsh playstyle that don't belong to any player but hardcore ones that want a true challenge.

I will bet you that there will be area's no one will want to put a realm area...

And this is another option, there will be indeed locations where build a city is impossible or not convenient, like near a river and at the foot/top of a huge mountain, will be enought for a single unguilded player to live there.

[Cian]

I think you all underestimate the ability and creativity of players to use game mechanics to cause grief and outrage.

There needs to be a clear line set by Bobik on what is considered griefing and what is not. If this line is not set during Alpha/Beta you can be sure that entire clans will spring up in the first week of release dedicated to doing nothing more than wrecking the hard work of individual players using the claim system.

I can already see a bunch of players sitting around macroing or spamming pvp skills, waiting for a player to build a small village with his friends on a personal claim, and then dropping a guild claim just to steal it all in a night.

Don't think it will happen? Whatch it happen and watch the player population drop like a rock if it isn't addressed. I'm all for sandbox play but lets differentiate between sandbox play and using cheesey horse crap tactics to steal from other players because your too lazy to work for your gains.

Here is my suggestion. If a guild wants to place down a claim, make them put down monetary compensation per individual player claim that has to be forcibly removed based on it's size and then that player get's a 24 hour timer to remove all his stuff if he doesn't want to bow down and join the realm.

*** If the individual hermit has to wager all his lands in a dispute, then the claiming realm should have to wager something in exchange****

[Protunia]

I think you have to remember what kind of game this is going to be....PvP full loot.

Any Realm who covers part of a land area will have all rights to get rid of anyone in that land area.

Any Players that are afraid of this kind of play already have options to completely avoid it.

The choice is yours rent land near the main central city which is completely safe or take some risks by finding open area's and living a harsh existence or group together being part of a Realm.

Those are the choices from everything I have read about LiF.

I would not bank on any part of this changing at all.

[Gerrich]

If this is to truly be a sandbox game, as stated before, solo players should have the option to simply defend their claim against the guild that wants to evict them.