Life is Feudal Official Forum

[Cian]

I see a land devoid of trees. Thousands of abandoned hobo shacks dotting a landscape with thousands of holes, ruined mountains, chaotic ditches, or massive flattened hills. This land looks ruined and devoid of life. It's in habitants long having abandoned the area is favor of greener pastures. Like a swarm of locusts, these individuals creep froward to ruin pristine pastures and then move again once an area has been ruined again.

This sounds funny and is probably a bit of failed dramatism but anyone who has played Wurm knows what I am talking about.

What mechanics will exist to prevent mass deforestation, abandoned dwellings dotting a screwed up landscape ruined by players with no concept of how to play the game? Or perhaps ones who simply want to clear cut entire forests for skills and stats?

How do we prevent LIF's environment from becoming a chaotic wasteland no longer worth settling?

[EiresJason]

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that LiF will give players the ability to plant new trees that will grow overtime so clans will start planting new trees early on in the game to keep their crafters well supplied in the future.
(Well I hope I read that somewhere xD)

Not really sure what will be done to stop players destroying mountains and hills, though how could you stop it?

EDIT:
Also, I think to prevent the 'abandoned shacks scattered everywhere' issue, the devs are implementing a feature that makes buildings degrade overtime so you have to keep maintaining buildings to stop them from degrading to nothing.

[Evo]

387. How trees and other objects that can be collected will reappear? After restarting the server like in Eve?

Trees will regrow slowly, but you can easily deforest all area around you. So it is in your interests to plant new ones. Some of resources ON trees (bark, apples, branches) will regenerate on server restart.

388. We can dig tunnels unlimited, but after several months of playing grounds will be full of holes?

We have heard it plenty of times, but we don't think that will happen. You can dig a hole in real life, but our world does not look to be totally digged up Why? Because there is no reason for just digging a holes. In our game that will take some time, so people will dig something only if they need it (to get an ore, to dig a moat around walls and so on.

[Arrakis]

Evo's answer basicly covers everything.

But most importantly players will have to plant new trees, otherwise they will have no building materials. They will deforest certain parts of forest for building and they will plant new trees elsewhere to cut them down later.

Players who will cut down all the trees and not care to plant new ones will simply find themselves in a point, where they cannot continue building and crafting.

Buildings will decay if they will be not maintained and eventually abandoned, and tunnels will collapse with time if not maintained as well.

People will gladly use some flattened land for their new settlements, this will save their time.

So there is really nothing to worry about, partially mechanics will take care of abandoned settlements, the rest will be taken care of by players, who will come to the place of previous land owners and take it for themselves.

[Cian]

I prefer to be cautiously unoptimistic in this regard. However, this question won't be settled until an Open Beta or release.

My experience in Haven and Hearth, Wurm, and other sandbox games has shown me that people will do things no matter how difficult just because they can.

1. If a player wants to clear cut a forest and not replant, what is to stop him or her? Do they care if they can't craft? They will simply move to another area.

Clear Cutting for Griefing will likely happen. The only people who care about planting trees are the ones who plan to live in an area. People on the move don't care about replanting trees.

2. If a player wants to dig tunnels all around a person's personal plot to mess with their ability to expand, what is to stop them?

Players will terrain grief. I don't believe for one second that "because it's hard" will stop them. It takes on average 3-5 minutes to open one block of mine tunnel in wurm yet people will spend hours griefing a claim.

3. Decay.
I will accept that decay will solve some of these problems. Natural tree regrowth and tunnel collapse are the only tools that will stop other forms of griefing though.

I know I sound like the guy screaming that the sky is falling when we discuss this stuff but I've been playing Sandbox games all my life. I've seen video game trolling and griefing at it's finest.

Any way that a player can possibly abuse a mechanic to grief another player no matter how hard or time consuming it is, should be studied and evaluated for balancing.

I promise you. If you don't sit around thinking of ways to abuse a system, some player somewhere will.

[Arrakis]

1. If a player wants to clear cut a forest and not replant, what is to stop him or her? Do they care if they can't craft? They will simply move to another area.

Clear Cutting for Griefing will likely happen. The only people who care about planting trees are the ones who plan to live in an area. People on the move don't care about replanting trees.

You should remember that it's not like they can just put 1000 wood in their backpack and move along few hundred metres further just like that. They will have to move back and forth with a cart to transport all this, nobody will really do that unless they will really have to.

Also they need to store all that wood somewhere, that means having some shelter nearby. And if someone will just cut trees down just like that, then it will serve purpose for other players who will just come and grab it.

2. If a player wants to dig tunnels all around a person's personal plot to mess with their ability to expand, what is to stop them?

Players will terrain grief. I don't believe for one second that "because it's hard" will stop them. It takes on average 3-5 minutes to open one block of mine tunnel in wurm yet people will spend hours griefing a claim.

Tunnels will collapse in time especially if they are not covered with other player's claim. And players playing solo won't really waste their limited cell they can claim just to cover some ground nearby other player settlement, because therefore they will lose their ability to build on their protected area.

3. Decay.
I will accept that decay will solve some of these problems. Natural tree regrowth and tunnel collapse are the only tools that will stop other forms of griefing though.

I know I sound like the guy screaming that the sky is falling when we discuss this stuff but I've been playing Sandbox games all my life. I've seen video game trolling and griefing at it's finest.

Any way that a player can possibly abuse a mechanic to grief another player no matter how hard or time consuming it is, should be studied and evaluated for balancing.

I promise you. If you don't sit around thinking of ways to abuse a system, some player somewhere will.

Remember that people will pay for:
- 1. The game itself
- 2. Each new character they will create

That means they won't really waste that money only for a purpose of griefing, and even if there will be few rich kids with purpose of screwing around then it will be just few of them, and they won't do much harm really, they will get bored easly and either leave or start playing seriously.

You really have nothing to worry about here, game is getting really serious when there is a cash that people put in.

[Cian]

1. If a player wants to clear cut a forest and not replant, what is to stop him or her? Do they care if they can't craft? They will simply move to another area.

Clear Cutting for Griefing will likely happen. The only people who care about planting trees are the ones who plan to live in an area. People on the move don't care about replanting trees.

You should remember that it's not like they can just put 1000 wood in their backpack and move along few hundred metres further just like that. They will have to move back and forth with a cart to transport all this, nobody will really do that unless they will really have to.

Also they need to store all that wood somewhere, that means having some shelter nearby. And if someone will just cut trees down just like that, then it will serve purpose for other players who will just come and grab it.

I hope you are correct on this. However, if the purpose is grief. They will simply dump the wood on the ground.

[Arrakis]

I hope you are correct on this. However, if the purpose is grief. They will simply dump the wood on the ground.

In that case as I already explained someone else will come and grab that free wood.

[Araceli]

I agree with you Cian. It does sound dramatic and doom-and-gloom, but you're exactly right about what will happen.

The bright side is that at least by beta you'll see a microcosm of what the community will be and what a maliciously terraformed world will look like. Hopefully the devs will have enough sense to realize it and enough balls to address it. You can set battles and wars to avoid the 0230 dead times, but you can't have players on your land defending it from griefers 24/7.

For those guys, it's not "I'm roleplaying a bandit", it's sociopaths provided with a consequence-free environment to frolic. It doesn't have to have a purpose if it can make someone or some group irritated.

For me, I'll know by beta if this game is going to die or not. Once the game goes to release, there's no point in airing grievances in the forums because the devs will have already cast their vote one way or the other.

[Bobik]

Weekend of doomsayers on LiF boards

We will see. I am not a noob to sandbox games and griefing, you know. We will see how bad things will turn out and will address it.

[Fawkes]

I am not a noob to griefing, you know.

Troll Admin confirmed, evacuate the boards!

[Saxxon]

All the things said already will deter this crap on top of that they will get a reputation of asshattery over time and people will kill them on sight.

I killed numerous people in Wurm for this.

You will be held accountable for your actions.

One thing though - "Do not allow name changes at all!"

I would like to see a mechanic similar to wurm where you could use the tracking skill and see someone's footprints and know who it was at the site of a crime.

In the end they will suffer for their crimes.

[Protunia]

Weekend of doomsayers on LiF boards

We will see. I am not a noob to sandbox games and griefing, you know. We will see how bad things will turn out and will address it.

Exactly, what I do see is the I need to be coddled crowd starting up before we even test anything at all.

A little much guys lighten up.

I see great battles and many deaths as well as a lot of fun and times of challenges.

[Sting5]

LiF developers already thought about such problems, so no need to worry of a landscape full of holes and plains

1. Deforestation - there is a mechanism preventing that - skill tree - chopping trees will be a time consuming activity: to chop a tree You will have to have Logging. To learn Logging, You need to have Forestry skill 30 at least. So:
Forestry (30) --> Logging
You will be planting trees at first to be able to cut them. So I see other problem - Overforestation

2. Tunnels - as Arrakis already mentioned, tunnels will decay in time, but Bobik has mentioned in stream video, that tunnels with supporting poles will not decay, so not sure about that. Might be that wooden poles will also decay, in time, same as buildings. Bobik knows better. And again, skill tree... Prospecting (30) --> Mining.

3. Shacks - Arrakis post explains it all.

So if these will not help, I'm not sure what would

[Bobik]

Tunnel supports will decay too, but a bit slower then unsupported tunnels.

For tunnel building you need only Terraforming skill lvl 60. Mining skill is used only to extract more amounts of ore from ore vein substances.

But you're right in general. I don't see much problems here.

[Antiblitz]

go play Haven & Hearth, all your questions will be answered. Wurm doesnt have nearly the same amount of similarities that H&H shares with LiF.

it is free ya kno.

[Cian]

Exactly, what I do see is the I need to be coddled crowd starting up before we even test anything at all.

A little much guys lighten up.

I see great battles and many deaths as well as a lot of fun and times of challenges.

With that attitude you might be seeing great battles consisting of about 5 total people from the 50 that login every day.

Keep sticking your head in the sand. We are not raising these issues because we are a bunch of carebears. We are raising this issues because 20 years of MMO gaming has taught me that people in a sandbox will use every tool at their disposal to engage in trolling for no reason other than the tears.

I give up. I'll play Alpha, submit bugs, testing etc but I give up on raising game play issues and suggesting improvements. It's like beating my head against a wall trying to get anyone to consider what being a "sandbox" means to people who take trolling to a semi-professional level.

[Telakh]

More fertilizers for the forests' growth =)

[Sting5]

Tunnel supports will decay too, but a bit slower then unsupported tunnels.

For tunnel building you need only Terraforming skill lvl 60. Mining skill is used only to extract more amounts of ore from ore vein substances.

But you're right in general. I don't see much problems here.

Can You please/pozhalsta explain how the decay will work? Do we have to be active/login to prevent the decay, or do we have to repair constructions somehow to avoid destruction? Thanks!

[Telakh]

Usual tunnel collapses in 2 days.
Mine supports prevent cave-in and last for around 40 days or slightly longer if constructed with high skill. You can repair them.
Houses and other constructions decay in 2 days if stay on unclaimed land as they are slowly being damaged, yet they can be repaired.
This is how I understand the system.

[Bobik]

Usual tunnel collapses in 2 days.
Mine supports prevent cave-in and last for around 40 days or slightly longer if constructed with high skill. You can repair them.
Houses and other constructions decay in 2 days if stay on unclaimed land as they are slowly being damaged, yet they can be repaired.
This is how I understand the system.

this.

Numbers might change a bit, but overall principle will be the same.

[Archaegeo]

I have to agree with Cian here.

People are professional griefers. The cost of entering the game is not a deterrant at all to them unless the griefing can get them banned, and even then if it gets them more "tears per grief" then they will still do it.

Being able to track, and see who did something, and then hunt them down and kill them might work, assuming the griefer doesn't just log out as soon as he sees you coming.

Griefers do not want fair fights, they just want to do whatever they can to make someone ragequit.

Clearcutting for no purpose other than denying a crafter wood will happen. As will terraforming outside a claim to cause grief.

If the land heals itself quickly then the terraforming might be moot save for the situation where you have a nice little boxed in area you develop and the griefer plops his claim right at your exit from that area.

We will see of course, I do not forsee problems in closed alpha, but once we get to free beta we will see.

[Telakh]

The only possible griefer problem I see is that a guild(s) you are at war with can deforest your town surbubs (they can raid and destroy everything there) and you will not have men/time to prevent it.
There is still a lot to consider about war/sieges. The rest looks fine for me.
If some stupid noobs deforest area - they will either be forced to plant treese for themselves or quit playing and be replaced by more smarter players.
If someone digs a hole - it will collapse in 2 days so no problem for it.

[Archaegeo]

Telahk,

You underestimate griefers.

The "noobs" doing the deforestation aren't doing it for the wood, they are doing it to deny others the trees. They don't care about replanting, only hearing people on chat and in forums wailing and gnashing their teeth about the loss.

And 2 days tunnel collapse, you don't think that will be a grief that you cant leave your claim with a cart for 2 days? And if you are upset about it, those tunnels will be redug, because that's tears for fueling their griefing engine.

[Telakh]

At least you can plant your own garden on your personal claim and noone will be able to cut them.

[Aheeia]

griefing as mentioned above can be described as psychological medival warefare

seriously imo its too early to go on about potential exploits. its good to keep them in mind in the community that they can be reported when they will be done on a large scale.

but why put he devil on the wall already?

[Telakh]

Cut a tree -1 alignment
Plant a tree +0.5 alignment. Lol

[Saxxon]

I am not a noob to sandbox games and griefing, you know. We will see how bad things will turn out and will address it.

There is really nothing to worry about so relax.

[Archaegeo]

Cut a tree -1 alignment
Plant a tree +0.5 alignment. Lol

Awesome Telakh

Now how would that work for tunneling?

[SirWinston]

I liked the tracking system in Haven & Hearth, where you could follow back a trespasser to his camp.