Life is Feudal Official Forum

[glenncariaga]

This is going to be a bit long, and I'll try my best to sum up main points, so you could get the gist of the argumentation from it, or read the details supporting the main points.

I've been very interested in "guiding" the formation of civilization in this sand box. I mean, we have a good template from history of how society forms, and I would like to be able to formulate a plan where it mimics that. i have a few goals in mind:

1. everyone is a hero.
2. there is a way to enforce societal norms (how ever this society forms)
3. the system is put into place to mimic real life systems, but with game terms in mind.

Specificially, I would like to set up a framework for a PC run justice system. Even more specifically, the idea of enforcement. There must be a way to enforce the laws and norms in-game, otherwise, there is no incentive for people to stick to these social agreements and real civilization will never form because of the constant anarchy. Feudalism implies some sort of hierarchical order, not anarchy. There was chaos, but the feudal system was meant as a bulwark against that.

Vigilante Justice. This will be a PVP type system, possibly with a bounty system (to be hashed out) in place.

Mob Justice. This would be next level of justice allowing for a greater penalty to be applied to whoever messes with the mob.

Judicial. This allows for non-death related justice to be meted out, and also for greater penalties that extend beyond just simple death.

Now for the most contraversial piece of this argument:

Punishment.
1. For non-death judicial punishments, it will be based on the willingness of the accused to follow the judgment. But to help incentivize it, a sort of "flag" should be placed on the character. a graduation of the severity of the outstanding judgment should also distinquished. i don't think it would be necessary for someone to have that flag as always on... but a check should be required to check for this.
2. For capital punishments, i propose a graduated "lockout" of the character. for example, if it was vigilante justice, its a 5 minute lockout, clearing the accused of the flag. if it was mob justice, it's 1 hour lockout, and and the flag is cleared.
3. judicial capital punishment: now here is where it gets interesting. i think the proper punishment for it is a 5 hour lockout, and a character reset. (this is open to discussion) the point of the character reset is to give the offending character a chance to start over. so any distinguishing in-game markers (ie property) would need to be modified or removed. the character's base stats should still remain the same.
judicial capital punishment should NOT be easy to mete out. there should be a capital flag placed, then execution must be public, with the public voting on this. a minimum number of voters must be met, and there must be enough votes for the execution for it to happen. finally, someone of higher standing must approve of the execution.

Agents of Enforcement.
This is done through a judge system. I propose a tiered system, with a progressive delegation of responsibility. What this would be is, there should be a mechanism/process that would involve:
1. for accusations. only people appointed by the lord/higher tier judge can initiate an accusation.
2. a time to meet for summons. once the accusation sticks, there is a time (or no time) for a reply by the accused.
3. review. once the time for summons is met, then the originating judge then makes a decision to apply the flag or not.
4. finally the flag sticking. only a judge (or the lord) in a higher tier can remove the flag

The point of all this is to allow players to create their own worlds, and have a way to enforce it, beyond just simple pvp, and also, a way to handle griefers in game.

[Atiden]

Not too sure having you kicked from the game is that great of an idea, if I'm playing a game, I want to play the game, and not be forced out of it for doing something that is technically part of the game.

Now what you can do is instead of being locked out of the game entirely, maybe throw the character in a prison, introduce another side of the game, prison life, obviously you wouldn't put someone in the prison for more than a day at most, but while in the prison, the player then has a choice to follow the rules and wait out their sentence, doing what the guards say, so on and so forth, and at the end of the prison time, get a form of debuff (for lack of a better word) like malnutrition, or muscle loss, or maybe your character got into and fight while in prison and lost which ended up with a part of his body badly hurt.

Then there is the flip side, say they decide they wont listen to the guards and follow the rules, they can start fights, ignore the guards, or even try and escape, each one carries a reward and a cost, obviously it can be fun to beat up other players, and ignoring a mean guard tends to be a little fun, but if you succeed in escaping prison then your free...until you get caught again. If you get caught trying to escape or you start too many fights or just flat out ignore the rules, more time is added till you can get out.

This way you are not kicking a player out of the game, they can still play (if they decide to, if not and they decide to log off, then that's their choice your still getting them out of the main game) and can still find a way back into the full game without waiting, and at the same time you get to punish the ones who break the rules of said kingdom, and (since this is mostly a player run game with as few NPCs as possible) you introduce a new job the players can choose to do on the side or even full time.

[Dragon Scales]

No, i agree with Atiden, this is not a good idea. Anytime the word Lockout or player reset comes along, it nullifies the previous statement, even if it was a good one. You have to remember that this is a game, so why would I play something that constantly locks me out?

I did however agree with your first few paragraphs. However you lost me at 'Mob Justice'. Your system would basically enforce a system of "DON'T DO ANYTHING, DON'T EVEN FART, OR YOU WILL BE PUNISHED!!!"

[glenncariaga]

People seem to think that the lockout, etc is going to be easy to do. The idea is that, there is an option for a group of people to implement real world effects on someone else. I don't think death is enough when there is someone that violates a society's norms, or becomes the pariah of a society.

Having said that, if someone pisses off the community enough that they band together and do justice (if you've EVER played WoW, you know how hard it is to get any more than 5 people together for a common goal, especially a goal that will screw someone else intentionally) there's gotta be a tier above just simple pvp. There are also going to be administrative barriers to it. ie, for mobs, some authority must still initiate a bounty flag that has expired. (otherwise it's just a pvp event)

i believe that there should be a differentiation between a pvp event and that of a justice event. pvp happens. justice events are supposed to be harder to pull off.

[Vestia]

2. For capital punishments, i propose a graduated "lockout" of the character. for example, if it was vigilante justice, its a 5 minute lockout, clearing the accused of the flag. if it was mob justice, it's 1 hour lockout, and and the flag is cleared.
3. judicial capital punishment: now here is where it gets interesting. i think the proper punishment for it is a 5 hour lockout, and a character reset. (this is open to discussion) the point of the character reset is to give the offending character a chance to start over. so any distinguishing in-game markers (ie property) would need to be modified or removed. the character's base stats should still remain the same.

judicial capital punishment should NOT be easy to mete out. there should be a capital flag placed, then execution must be public, with the public voting on this. a minimum number of voters must be met, and there must be enough votes for the execution for it to happen. finally, someone of higher standing must approve of the execution.

Interesting read until I came to this part, I know the developers are trying to make this as close to realism as possible, but there is a fine line between realism and fun. No player wants to sit out of the game for hours or have their character reset, there are other ways to punish players instead of screwing them over.

Some other ideas of this could be punishment of an in-game jail, where it is possible to break out if having the correct equipment/skills to do so, there brings in other gameplay mechanics and playstyles. Other simple punishments such as simply loosing equipment or being charged gold also could be used, although they are rather bland it could be developed on to make a simple system.

[quote="Dragon Scales" post=3218]However you lost me at 'Mob Justice'. Your system would basically enforce a system of "DON'T DO ANYTHING, DON'T EVEN FART, OR YOU WILL BE PUNISHED!!!"[/quote]

That made me giggle P

[Dragon Scales]

[quote="Dragon Scales" post=3218]However you lost me at 'Mob Justice'. Your system would basically enforce a system of "DON'T DO ANYTHING, DON'T EVEN FART, OR YOU WILL BE PUNISHED!!!"

That made me giggle P

doctor-who-meme-generator-this-my-dear-friend-is-fucking-genius-d41d8c.jpg

[/quote]

[glenncariaga]

2 issues.

1. having someone sit, in game in a NPC prison, i believe, is against the spirit of the sandbox. It puts you in a situation where something is run by the system. The system I believe in is one where people can CHOOSE to take part in it (ie, use the bounty system, organize a trial, thus triggering a bunch of things to make it a valid kill) or to bypass it, and not go through all the trouble.

2. Locking someone out for a few minutes to a an hour, i believe is fair, tangible punishment to ANY player. I believe it's less vicious than making them lose xp points or in-game loot. This also provides closure for the people grieved. The subject of the punishment will be out of their face, if only for a few minutes. The people who will suffer this are, in no way, victims, but the aggressors meeting justice. Why do some people grief? It is because they're bored, and need to get off for a little bit to get a new perspective.

Is there potential for abuse? You bet. But I believe setting it up so the lockout to trigger becomes difficult (and thus, non-accidental and very involved) allows the people to remember that there IS a recourse of action against someone who deserves justice.

There has got to be a difference between killing a criminal for crimes versus someone dying on the field of battle.

[finalreview]

Every time I got locked out of the game I would be mad and stop playing for the night. Then eventually I would stop playing all together. Just sayin.

[Soorn]

Doesnt EVE implement a similar system, when a 'bountied' player enters a safe area, or somewhere similar, they are flagged up and can be attacked by anyone? (im not sure on this as i havent played EVE in years but its something similar) Same with MO, in the towns, you can just type 'guards' i think ,and the bountied player will be chopped down by the guards

[finalreview]

There is going to be full pvp everywhere so you won' t need a flag to kill a 'bountied' player. It could be a bounty tag though that would allow you to kill the player with out taking a negative hit to your evil/good meter or w/e Bobik is going to put in.

[larsiam]

No offense but these ideas or horrid PvPers and greifers make games like this if you dont like that big bad wolf blowing your house then build a big bad sword and cut his head off.

[glenncariaga]

Player getting mad: It happens. Also, that is EXACTLY the point of a soft-lock on that one character. If you've done something bad that people band together and EXECUTE you (this is to head off someone getting on the wrong side of the law on a whim) it's best you stayed AWAY from that angry mob, if only for a few minutes.

In all my time playing online games, it's VERY difficult getting an organized group together to do something in common. I do not see random strangers banding together to screw you particularly, unless you became some sort of threat.

I think we can all agree that, unless there is some sort of social engineering done to discourage griefers (these guys run it for the other 99%) you will lose more of the player base than you would putting in a mechanic that ruins the fun of a griefer.

This idea of justice system, obviously has flaws. The important aspect I would like to preserve out of this idea is the empowerment of a group to be able to dispense some sort of consequence on an individual to modify their behavior. (Kinda how it is in real life.) I think anyone can agree that getting "ganked" is too similar to justified warfare, and the hit to their alignment becomes a badge of honor, instead of a disincentive. There needs to be some sort of repercussion that strongly differentiates punishment for bad gaming behavior not tolerated by the 99% and a mechanic that is just simply part of the gaming virtual reality. This sort of justice is the layer before getting an actual game admin/mod involved.

As we can also agree, even though this is a virtual environment, real feelings are involved, and this real feelings are what decides whether to continue to invest time/money into it. I believe that some sort of mechanic that discourages bad behavior, especially when it's in the back of everyone's mind, would provide that sort of "fear" to work well with others. (or be ballsy and man up to the consequences.)

[finalreview]

Whats wrong with getting people together, finding this player, killing him, then bind camping him at his home while you are laying siege to it? I don't see why you need a punishment mechanic when you can do it yourself.

[Red]

Whats wrong with getting people together, finding this player, killing him, then bind camping him at his home while you are laying siege to it? I don't see why you need a punishment mechanic when you can do it yourself.

Definitely agree.
Please don't water down the game. It's niche for quality purposes, there are plenty of other games with hand holding mechincs for people who can't handle a truly open world.

Worst case scenario have a PvE server and a "real" server (PvP)

[larsiam]

never separate servers only causes games to die.

[glenncariaga]

@ wiese, there is nothing wrong with that, but the quality of engagement there is the same as point-click-shoot. It does not allow for more subtle political intrigues. Thus, it forces people into the play style of martial aggression. We can agree that the idea is to be more inclusive of other play styles. Some people don't ALWAYS want to hack and slash. and that scenario is an oversimplification of the subtleties of real life. violence does have a strong presence, but when you have graduated steps that come before violence, it allows for a greater variety and possibilities of play.

also, i was trying to address the issue of a system of redress for "the masses." what's the downside of being a criminal if the consequence is more or less the same as getting killed in battle? (it could be argued there are more incentives to BE a criminal, thus we're incentivizing bad behavior.) I think there should be a big deal made for public executions, and some sort of justice system.

Another issue that a justice system resolves is, when a player "learns his lesson" or "paid his debt to society" there is a formal method for that player to re-integrate into society proper. ie, when the offending player's character is "killed" and is reborn as a new character, he is judged by the new actions he takes, instead of being judged for his past offenses. in the old gank, camp body scenario, it does not provide for it.

Also, I have nothing against the gank, camp body ad infinitum. people are used to that and understand it as a form of justice, i believe a graduated, system where "the masses" can take some steps to get relief that does not require moderator/GM interference would be well received by all.

[finalreview]

The increasing amount of skill loss on death you acquire the further negative alignment you go seems like a pretty big consequence for being a "criminal". I have no idea on the amount of skill loss but lets say its 1% per death, wouldn't take very long to destroy a criminals character if bind camping is possible.

[trashman]

A system where "the masses" can take steps to get relife is by joining forces with others and solving whatever problem they have. Having a formal game mechanic that does this for you would definitely take away from the whole player only inspired actions in the game. It is very common in games for people to group together to achieve larger goals.

[glenncariaga]

In regard to "destroying" the criminal character... I think that is a much worse solution to the temp-ban/soft-permadeath I am advocating for. The punishment is measurable, swift, and there is some sort of due process to it, and should be accessible to all (not just people with higher levels who can "gank" the offending player).

Having a formal mechanic does not necessarily take away from the player inspired actions. You still need player inspired actions to be able to trigger the mechanic. It's there, you don't *have* to use it, but it's there. At some point, civilization is going to need to evolve past the posse-hang-man method to something more efficient. There's bounty-hunting, there's judicial. But all those require some sort of support to make it work.

The big take away from this is:

1. Criminal acts should have a clear distinction from sanctioned acts of violence.
2. there should be a due process trigger that differentiates criminal acts from sanctioned acts of violence.
3. Local communities should be able to decide what is a criminal act and what is accepted behavior.

You can't enforce "good" if the consequence for taking good risk is the same as bad behavior.

[Dragon Scales]

I no way advocate temp-ban on death. I'd rather get back into the game fast as possible, even if I become a fresh serf XD. Nothing beats the noob experience ^-^

[LordWiese]

[quote="Dragon Scales" post=12168]I no way advocate temp-ban on death. I'd rather get back into the game fast as possible, even if I become a fresh serf XD. Nothing beats the noob experience ^-^[/quote]


He who said there should be temp-bans on death should be perma-banned.