Life is Feudal Official Forum

[Toren]

To start off, I'm not going to be talking about different fighting styles that people have been using, or balance between archers, cav and melee. This post is only about the current state of melee combat.

First of all, I'd like to thank the devs for continuously balancing OP and UP weapons throughout the history of this game. The combat as a whole is much more balanced than when the game started out. However, there is still much work to do.

In the past, mauls and 2 handed axes used to be incredibly OP, but they were nerfed and fairly well balanced out. Do they still need work? Sure, but they're a lot better than they used to be. Then the knight sword dominated the field, and that was balanced out too. Now, its 1 handed blunt weapons as well as the war pick and nordic axe. I don't know why, but the cudgel and flanged mace seem to be doing upwards of 50 damage fairly frequently, sometimes even 70, and with the fast swing speeds they have become the new maul. In fact, they are probably more powerful than the maul used to be just because of the swing speed. The war pick has a similar issue, dealing way too much damage for its fast swing speed and easy hitbox. The morning star was nerfed as of the last patch, and seems to be pretty balanced now, but it was doing a ridiculous amount of damage as well. Nordic axe seems to be doing a bit too much slashing damage considering swing speed, as well as a silly amount of piercing damage with the stab considering how small the spike is. I haven't played around too much with the other two 1 handed axes, but they seem to be better off balance wise than the nordic axe. I understand that the 1 handed axes are supposed to be more powerful than swords as far as slashing goes, but its overdone for the nordic axe.

The thing is, all of these weapons used to be fairly useless in the past, and now everyone uses them. I used to ask for an axe and mace buff myself, but they have been buffed far too much. I know they will eventually be balanced out like all of the other OP weapons have been, but its kinda silly that each new change brings out a new meta. As of now, weapons like the awl pike are underused and slightly under powered (actually, I have never seen anyone use an awl pike on a regular server, usually they just run a bec because its so much easier to use and does more damage on average. The spear and boar spear are pretty balanced though). Maybe next patch the awl pike will be 2 shotting people in heavy scale, who knows. Oh, as a side note, pikes seem to no longer be stopping horses like poleaxes do as they did during the beta patch, don't know if this is intended or not.

Also, I still have issues with how certain war cries and poisons work. I understand that coward is more of an overall workaround to hit and run fighters, but it punishes people who stand and fight as well. Making people essentially immobilized every few steps while they are trying to fight back against someone who cowarded them still seems silly. I don't know how it could be changed so it doesn't punish people who stand and fight so much, but forcing them to stand absolutely still and try and block/parry everything is goofy. Poisons are a bit OP as well. I know that they require a high level in a skill that is fairly hard to level, but once people reach that point the battlefield will just become a game of poisons and arrghs. It would be nice if poisons had a timer before they started draining hard/soft-hp/stam. I.E. 5 minutes for q0 poisons and 3 minutes for q100, so that people in full armor who get handle hit by a poisoned knight sword don't die in 30 seconds and have a chance to win the fight and then antidote, while still punishing unprepared soldiers who don't have antidotes or those who don't pay attention to their effects bar. And while I'm talking about equipment maintain, it would be cool to see the naphtha coated weapons added as they were going to be in the past. The idea seemed really cool and wouldn't break the game, as the description said they wouldn't cause weapons to do extra damage. It would also be nice to see a weapon maintenance kit with multiple uses like an actual tool that could be used to repair weapons with equipment maintain without damaging max durability of said weapons.

Again, I'd like to thank the devs for making the game pretty balanced so far and getting better everyday, but with a bit more adjustment to combat and smoothness, it could be perfect.

[AfLIcTeD]

Weapon balance is going to be a constant battle, even long after the MMO is released. There will always be something that someone feels is OP, or UP. Just like how classes in WOW are always getting changed.

For the warcries and poisons, I think coward should only affect someone that is not in combat mode. This way it won't penalise the people that are trying to fight.
Don't even get me started on poisons. They should do alot less dps but work over a longer period of time, because dying in 30 secs while fighting someone because you didn't manage to take your antidote in time just sucks. Which is hard to do during combat. It came to a point on the server I was playing on back in December, that everyone was using poisons because it was easy kills. If health poisons worked over a longer period of time it wouldn't be easy kills but maybe a kill if they didn't manage to get back to base to take an antidote. Also if you kill someone with a poison you don't lose alignment, don't know if this is intended or not?

[CaptainAmerica]

I agree!!! lets hope bring this into view that something will get done in the future.

[Styxwash]

Alot of valid points here, I agree with the issues mentionend -

I also made a post about melee/blocking recently and the removal of hilt hits for one handed weapons.

The removal of hilt hits for one handed has caused some issues that need to be considered, aside from messing up shield blocking, it also makes posions VERY easy to apply.

shields-hilt-hilts-bring-it-back-partially-for-1h-t18900/

[Ishamael]

Omg, ery thng is OP.

Shovel... op
Hammer... op
Sling... op
Naked...op
...
Ery thng... op

Until I learned to fight.

Just because something is good against your build does not mean its broken. Change your combat build.

[Laertes]

Omg, ery thng is OP.

Shovel... op
Hammer... op
Sling... op
Naked...op
...
Ery thng... op

Until I learned to fight.

As well as every GM is a "Badmin" ...?

Perhaps it´s also time to learn, that some people don´t wanna fight and create accordingly rules on their YO-Server. (Does nothing mean to pure defending Actions )

Sure, MMO will be different - but i assume that LiF is not created as a platform for kindergarten-revenge-Actions.

[Ishamael]

As well as every GM is a "Badmin" ...?

Perhaps it´s also time to learn, that some people don´t wanna fight and create accordingly rules on their YO-Server. (Does nothing mean to pure defending Actions )

Sure, MMO will be different - but i assume that LiF is not created as a platform for kindergarten-revenge-Actions.

No, you are incorrect. I only know of about 15 "Badmins"... (I prefer BANmins though). kindergarten-revenge-Actions? I'm sure they will think it's childish when they lose weeks of terraforming and building The owner of the last claim I destroyed legit went a little crazy for a bit. I don't think he could really comprehend what happened.

I'm fine with people that don't want to fight. Those people keep a kingdom well supplied. I just find it annoying when people that don't know how to fight start bitching at the devs that pvp is broken because something is good against their build.

There are a few things that need fixing, but that's because of actual bugs. 90% of the bitching I hear is because someone has not put in the time to learn how to counter a particular tactic.

[Hoshiqua]

Balance is going to be a constant battle in the current design of the game, yes. And it's basically the case with every multiplayer online game because obviously when you spend hours of work getting content in, you want that content to be a considered option against other content in a direct fight scenario.

However, this game, like other games that take place on the WHOLE middle ages with no real "tech system" is that you have to more or less realistically and logically balance weapons that simply were not used at the same time during the period. The middle ages are pretty darn long (a thousand year) and over those years, just in western europe, the equipment of the average soldier changed dramatically. Shields were replaced with heavy armor, allowing the more widespread use of long swords and 2 handed pole-weapons and giving birth to anti-heavy armor weapons like the war-hammer (which was way smaller than those in the game BTW.. a hammer so big as those in the game would be bad in combat because the second you get parried there's no way you get back in a guard position before the other guy rushes in on you and stabs you in the neck with a knife).

Swords became more widespread among the common, lighter armored soldier because they are objectively better than axes (way bigger cutting edge, possibility to use the pommel and the guard as a makeshift hammer with half-swording, and no shaft to break after long use) and became more affordable. Axes were still used though, they were still cheaper than swords.

Armor changed a lot too. Technology for all types (mail and plate mainly) greatly advanced over the years to counter the advance of bow and impact warfare advancements. For those without heavy armor, the round shield was replaced with smaller shields that are easier to carry and in the case of the buckler can be used as a hand guard while you're using a pole weapon or a pike while you fight in formation..

Basically they're trying to mix all of that and create a somewhat "all medieval times battlefield" by balancing every weapon and try to make EVERY one of them a considered option. That's very hard because in reality, some weapons are just better than others (if the two fighters are clones of eachother) and those weapons which were objectively better with no obvious drawbacks from the other one were either more expensive or flat out replaced the other one that's the case with full plate (at least until the end of the high middle ages), greatswords..

If you don't believe me, just go on Youtube, search for youtube channels like Skallagrim, Scholagladiatoria, I am Shad, Lindybeige..

So yea, we'll basically never see a proper balance of every weapons simply because it either requires illogical balancing like there is sometimes in the game right now :

-axes making more slashing damage than swords but no blunt damage
-two handed, huge mauls that seem to weight 2 kilos when handled and 10 when you hit someone
-piercing damage that's not capped (what does it mean when an arrow does 100 or 200 damage ? Does it penetrate 2 meters in ? At some points depth doesn't matter anymore, because the body isn't infinitely large)
- Armors having to be balanced while some were simply better than others but more expensive, but no one seems to think that's a valid option for a game
- Formation fighting vs Duel fighting difference not really be thought about : in a 1v1, a horseman would be disadvantaged because the footman would be much more agile and could just cut the horse's throat or pull the rider from his saddle. That's kinda the case in the game but it's way too easy to ride over someone, especially because it seems horses have a neck of steel.
- Archers being designed to counter plated two handed people while in history the very reason why people used two handed weapons with armor is because, well, armor worked and kept them alive against what they needed the shield for : arrows. In a world where only 2 cms of wood could stop any arrows and projectile but not cold steel, plates would be made out of wood.

... while this game is supposed to be a realistic middle ages "semi-simulator" game.

So yea no wonder balance is gonna be a headache with this one.

[Airco]

not entirely true hosh (havent been reading everything tltr)
new content is not always a inprovement for the current players.
i'l take "asherson call" as example here as i know that game a bit to well..
it used to have monthly updates (new content every month) and MAJORITY of those monthly patches where cosmetic and pointless , people complaind about this bhut the fact is that despite the lac of use it filled the game whit things to do (minor quests) wich resulted in the game its long age.
on the other hand they where adding stuf that was only usefull for the high end players at that time, again people complaind that it was just high end content again and the middel/lower lvl players felt left out.

balancing... nearly unposable as newer weapons/armor always has and wil be to make the other counter version useless.
lif actuale is pretty good at this idea if u ask me, sertain armor class is good versus slashing and other versus piercing damage if u ask me thats as close as balancing u can get.
eventualy there wil always be a sertain setup that sooths the player best, one wil be good whit sword and shield, other wil be good whit bow and arrow and another wil rock 2handers it depends on the player him/her self

the end result is clear, u cant please everybody bhut u can add stuf wich eventualy adds joy to the entire community despite the complaining

[Toren]

Omg, ery thng is OP.

Shovel... op
Hammer... op
Sling... op
Naked...op
...
Ery thng... op

Until I learned to fight.

Just because something is good against your build does not mean its broken. Change your combat build.

Ishamael,
Your propensity for meta gaming made your being here and trying to belittle my argument pretty predictable. If you had actually read my post you would have seen that I'm not bitching, I'm trying to help the game reach its max potential. I've run many different builds; light infantry, heavy infantry, lancer, archer, skirmish, etc. You're so caught up in your own little world of "being the best PvPer in the game" that you can't accept that is a game that is still in development. I've met many people who have claimed may people/groups who have claimed to be the best- but they can't all be the best, now can they? The point of my post isn't to complain about a certain build, it's to give the developers feedback about what I, as a player, have observed about the game. You spend so much time trying to undermine the arguments of people rather than providing counter arguments with valuable reasoning behind them. Your anti badmin post is just petty and a bit disconcerting; stalking people just because they wronged you? Everyone who has the game has run across badmins, but most of us have gotten over it. You need to get over yourself and remember that this is just a game- a game that we ALL want to see succeed, which is why most of us are here. Don't be a thorn in the collective communities side.

And how do I know you've even played in weeks, from what you've said it seems like you've been banned from every server that you have played on.
Inb4 lerp comes on to defend you.

[Ishamael]

Did you honestly think I was going to read all that?

I know Im not the best in this game, so me publicly saying this shows you know nothing about me. I enjoy pvp like a lot of other people on this game. Dont get so butt hurt man lol. If you're a badmin or one of their friends just accept that you reap what you sow.

[Toren]

Did you honestly think I was going to read all that?

Case and point.

Back on topic, just found out a new way to accelerate weapons to get above 60-70 speed bonus every hit, even with stabs, courtesy of a new friend. Its like spin moves back in dx9 all over again.

[Ishamael]

Wait till everyone finds out how to easily get around admin bans. That's when things get really entertaining. (no it's not a hack, bug, or exploit)

[Toren]

Everybody already knows how to get around admin bans, half the players I've met usually know. Its just that most of the time people still figure out who they are.

[Gaettusk]

Is the melee combat still floaty af? Havent played in a long time

[Hoshiqua]

Kinda is xD

[Astapor]

lets forgive 1 sec. the eternal dilemma on which weap should be nerfed or buffed. is the combat system itself to be retarted and not entertaining.
i dont want to call for another M&B (which would be a far better combat s. than the current 1) but if they really wanted to make something unique that's not the way.

i love to craft, to plan, to manage and i fkin love to fight. this last aspect is really the Achilles heel of this potentially awesome game.

[Toren]

The combat mechanics need a lot of work, sure, but they are much more in depth than M&B is (at least until bannerlord comes out). While M&B has much more polished fighting and is less floaty at times, it still has just as many exploits as LiF.
If you are talking about things like parry stuns, hit and run fighting, or the fact that speed bonus is extremely broken and has nothing to actually do with speed (I could make rant posts on all three of these exploits, but I'll wait till next major patch to see if they fix them), then sure, LiF combat can be pretty broken. However, M&B doesn't have parry breaking attacks, pounces, or even a real combo system (even if LiFs is kinda broken right now), and so many more skill based game play mechanics that I have never seen in any other game.
If you get a good group people who agree to forgo using the exploits and OP weapons you can actually get some pretty damn fun and intense fights.

[Maskaraid]

Omg, ery thng is OP.

Shovel... op
Hammer... op
Sling... op
Naked...op
...
Ery thng... op

Until I learned to fight.

Just because something is good against your build does not mean its broken. Change your combat build.

Alright so before I begin, this guy I'm quoting is fucking clueless.



Anyways, so balancing is an ongoing thing and honestly most of these suggestions are great. Personally the game needs a smoother combat system over all (aka real physics not this line casting bullshit) but since that's out of the question they have other alternatives:

-Posions, either give them a timer before the damage starts to tick or make it tick slower over time. Hell you could mmake different poisons do it differently. BAM! free clone content, devs love that shit.

-Horses, I can't carry a horse. Can you? no. So why can our guys? They shouldn't be able to be stored on players, they shouldn't instaheal or instastam. A war horse should move much slower than it currently does.

-War cries, just remove them. Yelling doesn't make you stronger(Should instead temp increase will power), yelling doesn't make people stop or trip(should lower temp targets will power), yelling doesn't stop bleeding or poison(this one should flat out be replaced, but I suppose a temp increase to soft hp would be alright), yelling doesn't make you run faster and make others softer(replace or perhaps simply have it make you be able to combat spring slightly longer).

I'm not really going to touch up on weapon balancing since that seems to be something they constantly do, and armor needs minor tweaks but it too is decently balanced as is.