Life is Feudal Official Forum

[Nernums]

There are dozens of types of fluxes that could easily be put in to be used, but instead it's left up to a system which has no business being involved with flux

I'm seriously questioning if anyone defending it has any idea what flux actually is, because it's not just a magical herb mixture to insert for balance purposes.

Many things have been used as flux over years historically, and even those which are already in the game are being blatantly ignored in favour of someones 'great idea' to make a convoluted herbalism system

[Thylbanus]

There are dozens of types of fluxes that could easily be put in to be used, but instead it's left up to a system which has no business being involved with flux

I'm seriously questioning if anyone defending it has any idea what flux actually is, because it's not just a magical herb mixture to insert for balance purposes.

Many things have been used as flux over years historically, and even those which are already in the game are being blatantly ignored in favour of someones 'great idea' to make a convoluted herbalism system

Some things in the game are left to an abastraction. Flux is an abstraction to limit access to "higher tier" equipment. Given that 8 guys living in a flat in Moscow did this, don't be so harsh. They are learning.

If you have some insight, why not provide it rather than just complain.

[Nernums]

Some things in the game are left to an abastraction. Flux is an abstraction to limit access to "higher tier" equipment. Given that 8 guys living in a flat in Moscow did this, don't be so harsh. They are learning.

If you have some insight, why not provide it rather than just complain.

the only thing I'm complaining about is multiple pages of yourself complaining that people have valid complaints in regards to flux.
Being good at a bad system does not make it a good system.

as far as abstraction go, No, it has been decided that as current flux only exists in herb form, ground with a mortar and pestle.

a few examples of things that have been used as flux in metallurgy with their crafting mechanic
soda ash- heat
potash- heat
charcoal- heat
coke- mined then heated
lime- mined
galena- mined
beeswax- farmed and gathered, then heated
tallow - hunt then heat
rosin- heated

Hell I'd even accept bone ash even though it's only used as a flux in ceramics.

But notice that none of them say "grind in a bowl"



now, incase you haven't noticed, the reason the 'feedback' section of the forums exists to provide 'feedback' and my 'feedback' isn't that I have something against the dev team, it's that whichever ones had decided on the herbalism system being directly tied to metal crafting really dropped the ball.

just because they're a relatively small team doesn't mean that they're immune to having the asked for feedback being negative, I spend much of my time working with even smaller teams and simply put, the smaller your team the more control you have, so it's in this case a strength, not a weakness.

[Dane]

The way i see it. The game is made to be played by thousands of players. so the flux aint always going to be hard to get your hands on..

also.. as it is now.. most cases groups of 3-5 pålayers are trying to build a huge castle or town where instead it might end up being 30-50 or more..

and in that cooporative spirit you will also find the answer to almost doubble the flux output.

since players don't use the same herbs for flux, you can share what you dont need between your friends and they might have luck with what you dont need.

and this i have tried instead of 60 flux from one grind we ended up having 110 when i whent through my friends stash.

so work together as is the meaning of this fine game and you shall flurrish

[Nernums]

if the game fails due to it being too grindy there is no way that thousands of players will be working together picking herbs

previous of getting to the flux stage my group was 15 people, and everyone stopped playing because of how flux currently is, having no interest in staring at the ground for hours.

[Viik]

The way i see it. The game is made to be played by thousands of players. so the flux aint always going to be hard to get your hands on..

also.. as it is now.. most cases groups of 3-5 pålayers are trying to build a huge castle or town where instead it might end up being 30-50 or more..

and in that cooporative spirit you will also find the answer to almost doubble the flux output.

since players don't use the same herbs for flux, you can share what you dont need between your friends and they might have luck with what you dont need.

and this i have tried instead of 60 flux from one grind we ended up having 110 when i whent through my friends stash.

so work together as is the meaning of this fine game and you shall flurrish

Well that's one of the issue that bothers me personally. There will be abundance of the herbs as soon as we have trade because majority will be selling ones that have no value to them.
So instead of having economy where herbs which give a specific effect are valuable we will simply have abundance of all of them.

[Thylbanus]

Some things in the game are left to an abastraction. Flux is an abstraction to limit access to "higher tier" equipment. Given that 8 guys living in a flat in Moscow did this, don't be so harsh. They are learning.

If you have some insight, why not provide it rather than just complain.

the only thing I'm complaining about is multiple pages of yourself complaining that people have valid complaints in regards to flux.
Being good at a bad system does not make it a good system.

as far as abstraction go, No, it has been decided that as current flux only exists in herb form, ground with a mortar and pestle.

a few examples of things that have been used as flux in metallurgy with their crafting mechanic
soda ash- heat
potash- heat
charcoal- heat
coke- mined then heated
lime- mined
galena- mined
beeswax- farmed and gathered, then heated
tallow - hunt then heat
rosin- heated

Hell I'd even accept bone ash even though it's only used as a flux in ceramics.

But notice that none of them say "grind in a bowl"



now, incase you haven't noticed, the reason the 'feedback' section of the forums exists to provide 'feedback' and my 'feedback' isn't that I have something against the dev team, it's that whichever ones had decided on the herbalism system being directly tied to metal crafting really dropped the ball.

just because they're a relatively small team doesn't mean that they're immune to having the asked for feedback being negative, I spend much of my time working with even smaller teams and simply put, the smaller your team the more control you have, so it's in this case a strength, not a weakness.

Well at least you provided something other than "it's stupid." All of them are quite reasonable and worth delving into to try to maintain the balance BitBox is looking for. It's refreshing to see someone actually being constructive.

My problem is with people who claim that it can't be done or isn't some way when I've tested and retested and still have results that are not comparable to their experience. I now have 4 alchemists, 2 on my guild server, 1 on my personal, and 1 on a public server and I've found 11 flux on each. The 7 alchemists in my guild all have 11, if it were a variable ONE of us should have some other number.

I'm not complaining about feedback, I'm complaining about false feedback because someone finds what they are doing tedious. If you don't like it, don't do it. Just don't provide feedback that is false or improperly tested. If you don't know how to test, don't give feedback. Go and ask a friend, guildie, or other player how. Giving false feedback will only make the game worse and it will not appeal to anyone.

The way i see it. The game is made to be played by thousands of players. so the flux aint always going to be hard to get your hands on..

also.. as it is now.. most cases groups of 3-5 pålayers are trying to build a huge castle or town where instead it might end up being 30-50 or more..

and in that cooporative spirit you will also find the answer to almost doubble the flux output.

since players don't use the same herbs for flux, you can share what you dont need between your friends and they might have luck with what you dont need.

and this i have tried instead of 60 flux from one grind we ended up having 110 when i whent through my friends stash.

so work together as is the meaning of this fine game and you shall flurrish

Well that's one of the issue that bothers me personally. There will be abundance of the herbs as soon as we have trade because majority will be selling ones that have no value to them.
So instead of having economy where herbs which give a specific effect are valuable we will simply have abundance of all of them.

VERY good point.

[Nernums]

I'm going to once again restate that having a way to game a system, does not make it a good system.

the trade thing is also a good point at a glance, but differs based on what sort of trading system is actually put in, and in the end isn't much different than what Thylbanus has been talking about where you all just dump all your herbs in a pile and pick out the ones you need, since it'd be assumed you're shoving in herbs for herbs if you have the herbalism and alchemy to make use of the ingredients

[Dane]

The way i see it. The game is made to be played by thousands of players. so the flux aint always going to be hard to get your hands on..

also.. as it is now.. most cases groups of 3-5 pålayers are trying to build a huge castle or town where instead it might end up being 30-50 or more..

and in that cooporative spirit you will also find the answer to almost doubble the flux output.

since players don't use the same herbs for flux, you can share what you dont need between your friends and they might have luck with what you dont need.

and this i have tried instead of 60 flux from one grind we ended up having 110 when i whent through my friends stash.

so work together as is the meaning of this fine game and you shall flurrish

Well that's one of the issue that bothers me personally. There will be abundance of the herbs as soon as we have trade because majority will be selling ones that have no value to them.
So instead of having economy where herbs which give a specific effect are valuable we will simply have abundance of all of them.

true, that can and might happen. but with many more players there is a big chnace that all herbs might work for flux for some one.

if that is a good thing i dont know, as it might resault in a general high price for all herbs as they all might valuable.

but i do have a feeling that we are gonna see some changes to the flux system sooner or later.

id just like to say that at this point with proper teamwork it is def possible to increase the flux output and get on with the building/smithing.

just remember the vision and try to imagine how great it must feel once it is done, and bring some diversity to your gameplay.

i know this is not a fix but at the current state of the game (early alpha) it will for some players help keep it enjoyable.

[Mikhal]

as far as abstraction go, No, it has been decided that as current flux only exists in herb form, ground with a mortar and pestle.

a few examples of things that have been used as flux in metallurgy with their crafting mechanic
soda ash- heat
potash- heat
charcoal- heat
coke- mined then heated
lime- mined
galena- mined
beeswax- farmed and gathered, then heated
tallow - hunt then heat
rosin- heated

Hell I'd even accept bone ash even though it's only used as a flux in ceramics.

But notice that none of them say "grind in a bowl"

Thank you for this. Yes.

The most common flux of this time period was: Lime.

The most common mortar agent was: Lime.

No magic herbs went into building castles or forging steel. Just tons of limestone.

As far as gameplay goes, adding in various rock types, instead of just granite, marble, and "rock", would make it a bit more interesting.

Limestone would be a valuable resource to control (though it would be relatively common outside of volcanic areas and near coasts). Granite would be more common in volcanic regions. Metamorphic, or partially metamorphised rock such as marble and travertine could be found in more volcanically active areas. Sandstones and shales elsewhere.

Heck, if you build town walls out of different rocks - give them that texture and color! Would add a bit more variety to the world. Maybe give them different defensive capabilities (sandstone is kind of brittle, you know). There are castles out there built entirely out of Travertine. It shouldn't be too hard to implement.

I understand the desire to make herbalists feel necessary in the LiF economy. How about sticking to the actual purpose of herbalism, which was to contend with everyday maladies?

I made the suggestion in another thread, that characters doing strenuous labor might pull muscles. Characters eating spoiled food may get food poisoning. Sitting next to a pile of corpses while your town is under siege may very well get you diseased. A person might burn themselves a little while using a smelter or kiln. This type of thing could reduce efficiency of the work done, or eventually kill a person if left untreated.

Isn't fixing this type of stuff the purpose of the apothecary, and not making tasty locks?

Just a thought.

[TheInfestation]

So a few things I have to say, I like the idea of types of herbs being found in certain biome types. It makes sense, and would help get rid of the herb overflow. But, I understand cooperation helps limit the herbs non-flux herbs, since you can trade them to another alchemist who can use them. My main problem with gathering flux is that there is no auto organize feature, and no way to quickly transfer items around. The biggest thing for me would be, the quality factor, now I very much like the quality mechanic, I think it is quite good. However, not in herbalism, instead of quality, I would rather they re-balance the numbers and just give you 1-x of the herb, when your game has 40+ herbs, then varying levels of quality and no inventory management system helper, it just makes the whole thing really cluttered and overwhelming. I feel if they had some tools to help with inventory management and removed the quality mechanic from herbalism it would go a long way to helping herbalism from being the most frustrating profession.

[Eve]

Just wanted to clarify something...
Each herb has 3 effects, 2 positive and 1 negative.
There is a total of 12 positive effects, and 6 negative.
There is 11 herbs with each effect...

66 Herbs, each having 2 positive and 1 negative.

So there are no "rolls" for a higher number of a certain effect, everyone has the same number of herbs that produce flux, 11.

If you don't have 11 herbs that produce flux, you didn't find them all...

[Hyperserver]

I dont understand all the flaming about flux

For a single player its nearly impossible to get enough flux - thats right... but: this will be an MMO one time. So you got to work together.....

Simple calculation:
1 Player = 11 herbs out of 66 (are flux) = 1:6 (each 6th herb is a flux)
For flux need 2 herbs => 1:12 (each 12th herb you got a real FLUX)
... hope you got me so far...

2 Players get TWICE flux? WRONG - think about again:

2 players get both herbs with 1:12 - so far they get twice - thats right....
BUT: both of them can use the "waste" of each other - out of this "waste" BOTH will be able to get flux-herbs with nearly 1:8 (some flux-herbs are needed by both players, so its not 1:12, its nearly 1:10. Each way (normally) its not less than 1:8. you can calculate this chance but also try it out by testing a lot). So let me calculate with 1:8 (easy to do -> 1:8 = 2/3 of 1:12)
So what we get more?
2 players get additional 2/3 => together 1 1/3 MORE

So far: set 1 Player = 100% => 2 players get 330 % of flux together

a third player RAISES the WASTE even more, so that EACH player gets additional flux-herbs

Dont want to post the complete calculation here, but believe me, if 3 players colect herbs and share the waste, they dont get three times more flux than a single person - they get about 500% more flux.....

... and so on ... and so on

we collected herbs with 3 Players for 1 hour and we got over 150 Flux together.

SO STOP FLAMING ABOUT HOW DIFFICULT IT SEEMS TO GET ENOUGH FLUX - THANKS

EDIT:
collecting flux is NOTHING compared to shaping thousands of granite to build a large keep for example imho

***EDIT 2***
Remember - if too much players play together its getting more worse again, because of a raising chance that more of them get the same herbs for their reciepes. So i think about 4 players (MAX 5 Players) its the best value between numbers of players and recieved Flux. But for sure is ALWAYS the more players work together - the more FLux they get. Its even more effective to have x Players (together) than having x * 1 Player (single)

[dingusmcgeehee]

On my server we reduced the flux requirements for steel by half. It's worked out fairly well, but our primary reasoning for doing so is to get people building faster. We run a roleplay server, so building is only a small part of the appeal!

[Hyperserver]

On my server we reduced the flux requirements for steel by half. It's worked out fairly well, but our primary reasoning for doing so is to get people building faster. We run a roleplay server, so building is only a small part of the appeal!

so why you dont make ALL players to GM??? so all can build more faster.....

Even if you play a roleplay-server as you said i think its MORE IMPORTANT to get a real feeling of building time.
I just repeat myself: we play with 3 players and ORIGINAL crafting-settings. We play since okt 11 th and we got nearly all stone-buildings at least one time, surrounded by a stone wall and outside a large keep. Just the large-keep-wall is missing.
And we used NO GM, NO CHEATS, AND DAMNED NO FLUX-CHANGES.

Why can people NEVER play a game like its made for? why they gonna ALWAYS change (or want to change) things???

I just can facepalm myself if i read such words like: "we got a roleplay-server ... and want players to build faster". Its an inconsistency first class

[Nernums]

don't complain about how other people have fun just because you enjoy grinding


that said if people could look back a couple pages for actual good reasons it should be changed instead of flaming each other that'd be much appreciated

[Ambitiosus]

Any changes to getting Flux? I know the topic is old, but the problem is still present.