Horse fights and anti-cavalry and IB stuff

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Camil199197
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Joined: 15 Dec 2016, 01:51

Re: Horse fights and anti-cavalry

Post by Camil199197 » 07 Sep 2017, 19:00

Sharana wrote:The ones that really need love right now are the 2 handers in plate - the poor guys are close to 5% because of various factors. They are the first getting attention, very soon as stop gap they will see lowered strength requirements for their builds and increased damage on their weapons. A bit later reviewed chopping damage multipliers vs durability to allow weapon like broad axe to destroy a shield in 2 to 3 hits + some other stuff. The unpopular melee weapons are getting a pass as well to get them more useful (they need to sell skins for them after all :) ).



The main problem with the 2H players are that they have almost zero snyergy effects with other classes in large battles. As a 2H you need a lot of space to attack the enemy to not hit your own mate. With Shield +Sword or Spear you can form a formation to stop the attacker easy and can even push hard to the position. Thats not possilbe with 2H at the moment.

The IB is at the moment the worst thing that can happen to a 2H. You cant push or defend that place with a 2H. You are almost useless^^

The new formation buffs even makes it worse for 2H players. You cant play with a 2H good in a formation because of huge space needed to attack.


Mybrainisanut
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Posts: 24
Joined: 21 Oct 2016, 18:50

Re: Horse fights and anti-cavalry and IB stuff

Post by Mybrainisanut » 07 Sep 2017, 19:45

Changed the title, whatever helps the community to talk about changes... lol.

Sharana wrote:lowered strength requirements for their builds and increased damage on their weapons. A bit later reviewed chopping damage multipliers vs durability to allow weapon like broad axe to destroy a shield in 2 to 3 hits + some other stuff. The unpopular melee weapons are getting a pass as well to get them more useful (they need to sell skins for them after all :) ).


Camil199197 wrote:With Shield +Sword or Spear you can form a formation to stop the attacker easy and can even push hard to the position. Thats not possilbe with 2H at the moment.


About those two hit the nail point blank. 2H weapons deal less damage in contrast to the defense those builds give. With a two hand weapon you're currently a glass cannon compared to shield and one handed weapons.
With the change for bolts beeing equipable on the belt-nodes and the agility reduces for crossbows, shield builds are useable for every situation quite well.
Also 2H weapons lack the close combat fight, quite ironic as they were designed to "berserk".
Their hit boxes in close combat are inferiour to one handed weapons, the reason many people aim down when htting.
In contrast a nice move for the enemy is to just dodge the weapons as the attacker "moves back" the hitbox of the weapon with this move.
In the time you try to strike again the 1H guy just walk up, hits you once and moves out.

Also the hitbox for side swings is big and as said by Camil, doesn't support group play because of the danger of htting friends.
Both thrusting hits and forward hits do deal less damage or have longer animations with a greater chance to miss the enemy as walking to the sides is an easier way to dodge attacks. Also the attack speed compared to other weapons is off the limits slow.

Buffing the damage and lowering the strength requirements in the same patch would just switch the meta from shields to whoever get's killed last in a slaughter fest wins. Same boring way as it's with horses currently on open ground. No skill requiered, just rush and hack down enemies.

Lowering stamina used for hits, lowering the weight in accordance with increasing the damage multiplier for weight would be a nice way to increase the speed with 2H weapons and give a chance for less strength reliable builds without lossing damage. This is because weight defines how much stamina is spent attacking, less stamina used means more available for movement meanwhile less weight also means faster movement.
If someone still wants to be a high damage dealer, it's possible but without the benefits of beeing tanky.

Increasing chopping damage against shields seems like a nice idea but in contrast the damage against characters and animation speed should be the same as the sole reason 1H players would win against 2H players is getting reduced to the shield alone.

The problem that weapons can still hit the arms through shields and ignore them is still not fixed.

As for the formation problems, it's just the situtation as you all already said. In IB's you can't favor all builds.
Gefangen vom Kreise lichten Scheins,
von unsichtbarer Pflicht nicht zu befrein,
sieht Tage lang das selbe Treiben,
ein Student zu Prüfungszeiten.


Sharana
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Posts: 644
Joined: 06 Nov 2014, 17:03

Re: Horse fights and anti-cavalry and IB stuff

Post by Sharana » 08 Sep 2017, 00:32

Mybrainisanut wrote:Buffing the damage and lowering the strength requirements in the same patch would just switch the meta from shields to whoever get's killed last in a slaughter fest wins. Same boring way as it's with horses currently on open ground. No skill requiered, just rush and hack down enemies.


I don't mind. If they wanted it to be really skill based we would have other combat system and entirely different design of IBs concept where tactics and movement would matter a lot unlike the simple take or hold a point that we have now.

But we don't - we have a design promoting big battles with minimal tactics involved in short amount of time like sessions based game. You come in the evening, do few IBs and log out. That's what casuals creating the mass do. On top of that we have a design where the personal skill matters less and less with the scale increase. If you have 5 great warriors + 5 avarage against 3 + 7 avarage (10 vs 10 scale) that will be VERY obvious and you will notice those 8 standing out from the other 12 and deciding the outcome with their actions. Yet add the mass to get the 100 vs 100 scale that isn't even big in OBT terms and the picture is completely different - the personal skill has less and less influence. In those blob vs blob standoffs it's the minimal skill level and the team work (following commands, etc) that decide the outcome, not skill of your best fighters that are few in those scales. Also it's 1 thing to get shot from 3 archers and completely different from 30 (the same 30% which are even higher in the real thing) - the unlucky (focused) players and horses die with totally different speed as the arrows still to the same damage. More lancers which means easier blocking of individuals that are fucked if they get catched etc.

The point is the large scale isn't based on individual skill - never was and most likely never won't be as I don't even see how. It's not Mount and Blade where you chop NPCs and feel the superhero :D

And the current meta is archers bombarding both blobs for 5-10 minutes with arrows and naphtha causing as much damage as possible before the 2 melee groups meet to determine the result. Yet what actually has the highest impact is with how much hp both groups have at that point (which archers did better), the skill, formations and the rest are secondary. For that reason all sides still pick more then 1/3 of their composition to be ranged (bows+crossbows), the only difference is they don't fight mounted in the IBs.

So on the topic of boring - for me personally (as lancer, not melee fighter) it will be way more interesting to see bigger melee battles (if they have higher influence on the outcome their numbers will rise) instead of the medieval counter strike we get atm. With less demand on cavalry, because of the different meta in the IBs we are back to the archers party and it's not really more fun compared to the "mongolian warfare". With so many arrows flying around if you are the unlucky guy that catches few of them in a row it feels exactly like this:
https://i.imgur.com/jC3B9sD.gif
Image


Mybrainisanut
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Posts: 24
Joined: 21 Oct 2016, 18:50

Re: Horse fights and anti-cavalry and IB stuff

Post by Mybrainisanut » 08 Sep 2017, 17:00

Sharana wrote:So on the topic of boring - for me personally (as lancer, not melee fighter) it will be way more interesting to see bigger melee battles (if they have higher influence on the outcome their numbers will rise) instead of the medieval counter strike we get atm. With less demand on cavalry, because of the different meta in the IBs we are back to the archers party and it's not really more fun compared to the "mongolian warfare". With so many arrows flying around if you are the unlucky guy that catches few of them in a row it feels exactly like this:
https://i.imgur.com/jC3B9sD.gif


Spoiler


Anyway, I'm confused as my thread was to get ideas on how to increase the chance cavalry is usefull in any situation. I did sum up a few ideas and to be fair, focusing the cavalry on more durable horses and lower the chance of random dismount would actually help them to sustain all the arrows - stronger horses do have a faster health regen btw.
If you're of course someone that rides right into the range of archers to get your character hit, than I have no idea on how to deal with that.

Also I know that cavalry currently is in a disadvantage to Defensive Fences. But what's the point in not using them if not for king of the hill fights? So implement variety in points to fight over udring IBs?
Gefangen vom Kreise lichten Scheins,
von unsichtbarer Pflicht nicht zu befrein,
sieht Tage lang das selbe Treiben,
ein Student zu Prüfungszeiten.


Paparia
Beta Tester
 
Posts: 39
Joined: 25 Sep 2014, 07:45

Re: Horse fights and anti-cavalry and IB stuff

Post by Paparia » 09 Sep 2017, 03:28

Azzerhoden wrote:Sharana, for those who were using shields - were they using spears + shields? I ask because I almost never see anyone running around with a shield and piercing weapon, or even a shield + sword anymore.



at the moment piercing weapons (not spears) are not so popular since they are very skill point demanding and don't perform better than spears that are cheaper to use and make

( this are exactly the same reasons spears was more common in ape history)
Image

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