Permanent death as game difficulty?

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DarkNeuron
 
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Re: Permanent death as game difficulty?

Post by DarkNeuron » 20 Feb 2014, 00:59

Seppuku wrote:
Proximo wrote:All the information about the alignment system is on these forums Legion I would suggest doing your research before entering an argument in ignorance.

As for perma death, you all seem to be missing the fact that you own land in this game. If your character dies completely why would you keep your house or farm or castle even? You want perma death so you have to restart from scratch which would mean running back as a fresh spawn from the starter town.

A characters skills may not take long to raise but a town or city will surely be a continuous affair. Perma death doesn't fit into this sort of game without making it extremely tedious.


The only ignorance I am seeing is your post. I am merely asking questions about a mechanic that I feel may have been overlooked. The roaving band of nude players who will act as human shields for their friends making you a criminal if you try to kill any PVE content with them around, or if you even try to fight back against someone who hit you. It's a terrible system, and it needs failsafes to prevent this from becoming Mortal Online 2.

After talking to my glorious leader my fears about this system have been slightly alleviated. I still think that a line in the sand between good and evil in these games is a bad concept. Some people deserve to be killed, and in my opinion a crime should have to be witnessed to be a crime. I hope that the systems they have in place for LiF are sufficient to hold back the naked horde of blue meatshields and neckbeards who give us gentlemen bandits a bad reputation. I look forward to towing the line and lining my pockets.


It is a good point that we shouldn't overlook: What is to stop a bunch of naked players running around trying to get hit (in a war)? Max grief mode engaged...

However, witnessing a crime for it to be a crime is a bland idea. I'd rather a solution targeted against the aforementioned grief-method was found.


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Re: Permanent death as game difficulty?

Post by Telakh » 20 Feb 2014, 05:30

Seppuku wrote:
Proximo wrote:...
Some people deserve to be killed, and in my opinion a crime should have to be witnessed to be a crime. I hope that the systems they have in place for LiF are sufficient to hold back the naked horde of blue meatshields and neckbeards who give us gentlemen bandits a bad reputation. I look forward to towing the line and lining my pockets.

You are overestimating the problem. There will be nearly no PvE so it is quite hard to imagine a situation where you will need to swing your blade with some unknown neutrals around(and expect them to jump on it). More that that, free-to-attack system will make most playes to travel in groups and avoid encounters.
Would you approach a random man while crossing the Sherwood? :D

Besides, we Do have a whitness system. You can mark criminal and attack any person who is trespassing, even not on your claim, otherwise he will stay blue if noone shouts "A trespasser!"
Last edited by Telakh on 20 Feb 2014, 08:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Sting5
 
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Re: Permanent death as game difficulty?

Post by Sting5 » 20 Feb 2014, 08:36

Proximo wrote:All the information about the alignment system is on these forums Legion I would suggest doing your research before entering an argument in ignorance.

As for perma death, you all seem to be missing the fact that you own land in this game. If your character dies completely why would you keep your house or farm or castle even? You want perma death so you have to restart from scratch which would mean running back as a fresh spawn from the starter town.

A characters skills may not take long to raise but a town or city will surely be a continuous affair. Perma death doesn't fit into this sort of game without making it extremely tedious.
Now that's a discussion I wanna see :good:
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Seppuku
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Re: Permanent death as game difficulty?

Post by Seppuku » 20 Feb 2014, 16:11

Telakh wrote:
Seppuku wrote:
Proximo wrote:...
Some people deserve to be killed, and in my opinion a crime should have to be witnessed to be a crime. I hope that the systems they have in place for LiF are sufficient to hold back the naked horde of blue meatshields and neckbeards who give us gentlemen bandits a bad reputation. I look forward to towing the line and lining my pockets.

You are overestimating the problem. There will be nearly no PvE so it is quite hard to imagine a situation where you will need to swing your blade with some unknown neutrals around(and expect them to jump on it). More that that, free-to-attack system will make most playes to travel in groups and avoid encounters.
Would you approach a random man while crossing the Sherwood? :D

Besides, we Do have a whitness system. You can mark criminal and attack any person who is trespassing, even not on your claim, otherwise he will stay blue if noone shouts "A trespasser!"


It seems everything has been addressed except for what will happen when groups of naked blue players run around acting as shields during a war? My guild leader said that you will have to actively gank people to actually kill them so hopefully we will be able to KO these little pests instead of having to kill them.
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Telakh
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Re: Permanent death as game difficulty?

Post by Telakh » 20 Feb 2014, 16:27

When a war comes, in first you will be able to kill any memebers of the opponent guilds with no karma penalties anywhere except thecapital city I assume.
In second, noone can enter to your guild's city territory. If they enter guild's outer territory, you can always mark them as trespassers.
If there is a siedge or battle announced, noone can enter it except for rivals, so there is no problem with blues either.
The only way you can engage them may be a raid, if you are caught outside your guild or personal claim but that is your problem then.
Besides, killing or knocking a person will cost you around 7-15 karma points and that is equal to 1-2 weeks of gameplay. That is not a big deal so you can always knock down some abusing character or a spy.
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Seppuku
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Re: Permanent death as game difficulty?

Post by Seppuku » 20 Feb 2014, 16:32

Telakh wrote:When a war comes, in first you will be able to kill any memebers of the opponent guilds with no karma penalties anywhere except thecapital city I assume.
In second, noone can enter to your guild's city territory. If they enter guild's outer territory, you can always mark them as trespassers.
If there is a siedge or battle announced, noone can enter it except for rivals, so there is no problem with blues either.
The only way you can engage them may be a raid, if you are caught outside your guild or personal claim but that is your problem then.
Besides, killing or knocking a person will cost you around 7-15 karma points and that is equal to 1-2 weeks of gameplay. That is not a big deal so you can always knock down some abusing character or a spy.

Thank you. That sounds like a sensible system to deter griefers.
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Proximo
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Re: Permanent death as game difficulty?

Post by Proximo » 20 Feb 2014, 21:26

I'm not sure if 100% of Telahk's info is correct especially concerning how many points exactly you lose and gain for alignment but he certainly has the idea.

From what I have gleaned the alignment system has many layers attached to it.

1. You take a small alignment hit for each hit on an unflagged player.

2. You can knock a player out and loot them for a much smaller alignment hit then actually killing them.

3. A player can yield before death in which you get some sort of loot ability and if you decide to strike them down you get a bigger alignment hit.

4. You gain alignment by praying daily.

5. I've heard the alignment scale is -1000 to 1000 but if -50 is perma murderer I would think -100 to 100 is the standard.

6. War declared means no alignment hit for kills.

7. Claimed area, clan or personal has the trespassing feature which will flag a player.

8. Total clan areas are wide to control taxing and who settles on it which I'm sure translates into where it counts as trespassing.

9. Battles are instanced but sieges were not planned to be instanced but I think the trespassing system would fix randoms getting in the way.

10. Clan claims cannot be damaged until officially sieged but personal claims can be.

11. A clan has to win a certain amount of official open battles before being able to siege the enemies monument. The monument is where the claim originates from.

12. The only restriction against players entering a claim is if you have walls and shut the gate. So even if there flagged they could steal your stuff.

13. You lose skill points on death. The amount is based off alignment.

14. You lose alignment on death until it balances back to zero.

This is all I can remember reading about, some of which could have been early concept and is going to be changed.

There are not many situations where a neutral could get you to flag on him when you don't want to. If your out in the world not looking for a fight you will be harvesting something. If the player is going to attack you then he will be flagging in which case you may have to take 1 hit blocked or not (I would recommend carrying a shield and club/mace). If you have to strike first to survive then knock him out or wound his leg and run. This game has an extensive wounding system.

Bobik gave an example if a pker is mounted. A guy on a horse will no doubt have increased damage because of his momentum so you will not want to take that 1 hit to get him flagged. This goes both ways as you could pike him as he charges for high amounts of damage possibly owning his horse. 1 strong hit could decide if he will keep attacking you or run away.


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Re: Permanent death as game difficulty?

Post by Seppuku » 20 Feb 2014, 23:16

I guess we will have to see what sort of penalty killing a horse has. I hope that running into people with your horse flags the player as well.
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Sting5
 
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Re: Permanent death as game difficulty?

Post by Sting5 » 21 Feb 2014, 14:07

Seppuku wrote:It seems everything has been addressed except for what will happen when groups of naked blue players run around acting as shields during a war? My guild leader said that you will have to actively gank people to actually kill them so hopefully we will be able to KO these little pests instead of having to kill them.
Yes, in LiF You will have soft health and hard health: soft health will represent Your consciousness, when it reaches zero, You will be knocked out.

I don't really think that running naked around would be much of a fun, because You will be easily disabled by simple knock outs. And while it will trigger the flagging system and make You aggressor, what would a naked guy do to You with armor? I feel more frustrated by possibilities of highly skilled, advanced players jumping in front of me and catching my arrows/strikes while I hunt (let's say), so they could kill me without penalty and loot my body afterwards. This is more an issue to me than a bunch of naked guys.
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Seppuku
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Re: Permanent death as game difficulty?

Post by Seppuku » 21 Feb 2014, 15:05

Sting5 wrote:
Seppuku wrote:It seems everything has been addressed except for what will happen when groups of naked blue players run around acting as shields during a war? My guild leader said that you will have to actively gank people to actually kill them so hopefully we will be able to KO these little pests instead of having to kill them.
Yes, in LiF You will have soft health and hard health: soft health will represent Your consciousness, when it reaches zero, You will be knocked out.

I don't really think that running naked around would be much of a fun, because You will be easily disabled by simple knock outs. And while it will trigger the flagging system and make You aggressor, what would a naked guy do to You with armor? I feel more frustrated by possibilities of highly skilled, advanced players jumping in front of me and catching my arrows/strikes while I hunt (let's say), so they could kill me without penalty and loot my body afterwards. This is more an issue to me than a bunch of naked guys.


The problem will be high level players in armor with naked lackeys who act as human shields for them. When you try to fight back they leap in front of you causing you to take alignment hits, and to shield their comrade from your attacks.
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Thokan
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Re: Permanent death as game difficulty?

Post by Thokan » 22 Feb 2014, 11:47

Permadeath was fun and worked well in Haven and Hearth. But that is a game built on isolation. Here we have grand mechanics for large player interactions like wars, battles and sieges. LiF is not a isolationist survival game, thus permadeath is no option.

Also, as Prox mentioned. Your progression in this game wont be your character, it is just your tool, but your claim and crafting. There is no sense at all in wanting to start the game over.
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Re: Permanent death as game difficulty?

Post by Proximo » 23 Feb 2014, 15:22

Seppuku wrote:
Telakh wrote:...
Some people deserve to be killed, and in my opinion a crime should have to be witnessed to be a crime. I hope that the systems they have in place for LiF are sufficient to hold back the naked horde of blue meatshields and neckbeards who give us gentlemen bandits a bad reputation. I look forward to towing the line and lining my pockets.



Just fyi that quote you made makes it look like I said that for some reason when I did not.

The fix for naked whites as you call them is losing skill points on death, getting wounded which takes time to heal, trespassing and declaring war on any realm that messes with you.

That sounds like a damn good system to me.


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Re: Permanent death as game difficulty?

Post by Sting5 » 24 Feb 2014, 06:46

Thokan wrote:Permadeath was fun and worked well in Haven and Hearth. But that is a game built on isolation. Here we have grand mechanics for large player interactions like wars, battles and sieges. LiF is not a isolationist survival game, thus permadeath is no option.

Also, as Prox mentioned. Your progression in this game wont be your character, it is just your tool, but your claim and crafting. There is no sense at all in wanting to start the game over.
In a no way I am suggesting this as a compulsory thing to be. Permadeath could be some fun and meanwhile serious challenge for long-time players to check their abilities once and again with additional character.
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Re: Permanent death as game difficulty?

Post by Seppuku » 24 Feb 2014, 16:28

Sting5 wrote:
Thokan wrote:Permadeath was fun and worked well in Haven and Hearth. But that is a game built on isolation. Here we have grand mechanics for large player interactions like wars, battles and sieges. LiF is not a isolationist survival game, thus permadeath is no option.

Also, as Prox mentioned. Your progression in this game wont be your character, it is just your tool, but your claim and crafting. There is no sense at all in wanting to start the game over.
In a no way I am suggesting this as a compulsory thing to be. Permadeath could be some fun and meanwhile serious challenge for long-time players to check their abilities once and again with additional character.


I like soft permadeath in these type of games. You die and your character's heir takes over. You make a new name for yourself, and you are passed down some of your father's skills. You also retain your family home unless it is sacked or raided completely.
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Re: Permanent death as game difficulty?

Post by Sting5 » 25 Feb 2014, 05:34

Seppuku wrote:I like soft permadeath in these type of games. You die and your character's heir takes over. You make a new name for yourself, and you are passed down some of your father's skills. You also retain your family home unless it is sacked or raided completely.
This is interesting :shock: Are there any games implementing this system yet (except Crusader Kings)?
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Re: Permanent death as game difficulty?

Post by MrZeppo » 07 Mar 2014, 11:59

Sting5 wrote:
Seppuku wrote:I like soft permadeath in these type of games. You die and your character's heir takes over. You make a new name for yourself, and you are passed down some of your father's skills. You also retain your family home unless it is sacked or raided completely.
This is interesting :shock: Are there any games implementing this system yet (except Crusader Kings)?

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Re: Permanent death as game difficulty?

Post by Siegbert » 07 Mar 2014, 12:04

Well, I expect to die a lot in this game... should there really be a new character each time I die?
That sounds absurd


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Re: Permanent death as game difficulty?

Post by Seppuku » 07 Mar 2014, 17:04

Siegbert wrote:Well, I expect to die a lot in this game... should there really be a new character each time I die?
That sounds absurd


More absurd that frivolously throwing your life away because "It's only a game"?
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Re: Permanent death as game difficulty?

Post by Siegbert » 07 Mar 2014, 17:33

Seppuku wrote:
Siegbert wrote:Well, I expect to die a lot in this game... should there really be a new character each time I die?
That sounds absurd


More absurd that frivolously throwing your life away because "It's only a game"?


Well, sure. I mean, I don't intend to die but I do intent to be involved in guild wars quite often because fighting is fun. This game seems to be centred around combat to a degree and I can't hope to win every battle.

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Re: Permanent death as game difficulty?

Post by Thokan » 09 Mar 2014, 10:22

Seppuku wrote:
Siegbert wrote:Well, I expect to die a lot in this game... should there really be a new character each time I die?
That sounds absurd


More absurd that frivolously throwing your life away because "It's only a game"?


Its a game, not a simulator.
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Re: Permanent death as game difficulty?

Post by KaosReigns » 05 Oct 2014, 10:54

Easily summed up as, dont play on a perma death server.

I host a permadeath (Currently bugged) and most of you dont actually realize the power that permadeath has. So, from someone who runs a permadeath server, I shall enlighten you.

1) There is ZERO greifers, trolls, assholes, or basically anyone that isnt into RP, the reason for this, the players will not put up with it (I do not ban on my server, I dont have to, the players are the law). If someone griefs on my server, its upto the players themselves to institute a system of law. With permadeath, you either have to abide by their rules, or be cast to the depths of hell.

2) Skills are set at a low rate (x1) to ensure that players take the time to skill up. There is no GMing all skills on my server, cuz its such a low rate, griefers, trolls, etc, just dont waste the time.

3) It makes you consider VERY carefully about who you attack, why you attack them, and if you will actually kill them or just rob. Immersion in this game is huge.

So, as you see, when you have permadeath enabled, yes, it makes people worried, its not for everyone, however, I feel that the ability for the PLAYERS to be able to control trolls and greifers, far outweighs the negative. Not to mention permadeath seriously gears ppl to group up, and not play solo.

Hope this info about a truly hardcore server and its functions help. As I said, permadeath isnt for everyone. Certainly not for trolls.
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