Hey guys,
after the Q&A from the 18th Aug. I thought a lot about the combat against and with horses, did a lot of research technical wise for horses and weapons and felt like the combat is way too static and forgiving for either lancers or pike men.
The things I want to talk about and try to adjust is:
1. Lancer riding down and instantly killing enemies
2. Pikes being too static to be practical in fights
3. Horse riders being able to instantly sit on their horses again
4. People blocking off horses just by standing in front of them or jumping
5. Invisible walls which dismount riders
6. Heavy Warhorse “Unstoppable”-skill
Let me start with saying I do not “hate” or “love” either anti cavalry nor the cavalry itself, I just like to see a lot of different builds and weapons used in big fights.
1. Lancer riding down and instantly killing enemies
The issue with this was first appearing when the falling damage was introduced to the game. I do not say it’s a bad idea, it’s just a bug. The physics in this game is determined by speed and falling range in every direction x-y-z axis. I’m not into the Tourqe engine enough to see a solution but an idea is to remove the falling damage in x-y axis and remove the speed bonuses on falling in z axis. Can’t determine the programming work.
As this bug apprears to be the strongest out of all “abuseables” in a fight and can cost a lot of very little effort, this should be on the to-do list.
2. Pikes being too static to be practical in fights
Pikes are a mess. They are not very well thought trough – not gonna blame you guys, it just does not feel nice to play with them. First of all the animation times for hitting is super huge. Let me just copy them from your files (because I can…..)
ShortPike:
BasePrefireAnimTime = 0.7;
BaseFireAnimTime = 3.0;
BaseRecoilAnimTime = 0.9;
In total: 4,5
MediumPike:
BasePrefireAnimTime = 1.0;
BaseFireAnimTime = 3.0;
BaseRecoilAnimTime = 1.0;
In total 5
LongPike:
BasePrefireAnimTime = 1.0;
BaseFireAnimTime = 3.0;
BaseRecoilAnimTime = 1.2;
In total: 5,2
The damage to horses or the riders is only dealt at the BasePrefireAnimTime+BaseFireAnimTime if they do ride into your pike during the BaseFireAnimTime. This means you need to start attacking (with all pikes) 3 seconds prior to a horse riding into you. 3 seconds is enough time for the riders to adjust their path and either escape the damage or reduce the chance to even being hit because of the pike hitbox. Again, damage is only dealt if they do ride into your pike on point during the 3 seconds, damage dealt is after the 3 seconds. This is insane because they are still able to hit you. Just think about you stopping the horse normally and they would still ride into you, dealing damage anyway.
Also riding slightly from the side, the pike does not deal damage as well. As soon as I got a few pictures ready I will explain this further with the pics. All in all, the animation times should be reduced!
Beeing unable to move is a bad idea. I suggest players moving as slowly as with a shield and maybe implementing a new skill for pike men to run having the pike up(besides the pike wall), attacking should instantly stop their movement anyway (should be a very high level skill).
Comparing the pikewall and the normal attacks, the pike wall is at a huge disadvantage and will never be used under fighting circumstances. This is because the animation times a super long and you are an easy target for everyone! I suggest the pike wall to be a oneshot killer for horses but break after it’s use. This is because it’s at such a disadvantage that ever beeing able to hit a horse with it should be this good.
The chance to dismount riders does not work correctly. There is a chance that horses will receive damage and just keep on riding through you, dealing damage. The point of a pike is totally off of this!! This should be balanced accordingly so that not everyone can be dismounted all the time (e.g. Heavy and Spirited Warhorses). An idea would be that pikes will always stop horses but dismount only those not having Spirited, Heavy or Royal Warhorse.
Also the chance to hit the rider for over 100 damage is insane. It’s a realistic idea but it’s not fun in fights. Players beeing hit with the pike should not receive those high numbers of damage.
In the same way, pikes should be considered guard weapons for the needed dedication into the skill.
Summary:
Reduce the animation times.
Pikes hitting horses should dismount riders without special skills or horses.
Players using the pike should not stay statically until they attack but for the attack only.
The Wall Pike should be a oneshot killer but receive insane durability damage for it to break after this.
Players should receive way less damage from pikes than they currently do. (Short pike~40-80dmg Medium pikes ~80-100dmg Long pikes~70-120 depending on speed, mounted or on foot, quality of weapon, strength of wielder)
3. Horse riders being able to instantly sit on their horses again
Having finally dismounted a rider is a laughable gesture. Just standing up and pressing E is enough to prevent beeing killed for a good reason – riding into enemies without tactical approaches ends in dismounts most of the time. Dismounted riders should have a short debuff making them unable to sit on a horse again. Getting dismounted in the wild without enemies nearby is not dangerous. Beeing in a fight and carelessly riding into enemies is and should be punished.
4. People blocking off horses just by standing in front of them or jumping
When a rider got dismounted the first thing you normally do is just stand in front of the horse and with a big group let two others stand left and right from its head. The rider is then unable to move but backwards, which is slow. When an enemy just jumps right the moment you would ride him/her down, the horse will stop because the jump is considers the character in an unmovable state x-y axis wise.
The first difficulty has to do with the speed of an horse. I’m not going into detail for this, the DEV’s do know what I mean. Just starting to ride should not stop a horse from pushing back characters normally.
The second one is a physics and animation problem. I do not have any idea about those two things so I can’t suggest anything but maybe having the jump still be able to be translated into the falling animation, if this even works like that
When riding against another horse from the side you also will get thrown down. Consider this beeing part of point 5.
5. Invisible walls which dismount riders
Plain and simple, riders should never be dismounted unless it’s in a damage receiving way. Riding against a wall, no dismount, riding into spikes or similar (ending in damage), dismount. Having written about this in point 4, riding against another horse and receiving a hit from an enemy lance should not trigger the dismount.
6. Heavy Warhorse “Unstoppable”-Skill
Another, just very less used skill is the Unstoppable skill for a Heavy Warhorse. The problem isn’t reaching the skill or having a Heavy Warhorse, it’s the idea and the function behind the different horse speed states. I’m talking about “Top Gear” @ Devs’s
For the community: A horse has 10 different speed states. 0-Backwards 1-Standing still 2-10 different speeds. Galloping is considered a state when the horse speed reaches 16. Speed is not the speed state!!
For a heavy warhorse, the max. speed is 16. So you have to be able to reach your max speed. For everyone beeing a rider you know you would never speed up your horse to the max nor is it possible to maintain this speed very well in a battle situation. So this skill is, even beeing the sole reason Heavy Warhorses could be considered a good alternative to mobility, a total waste.
Idea to change this? Give the Heavy and Royal Warhorse different speeds, have the skill work earlier, maybe at Trot speed (speed needed is 10).
For further explanation:
All in all I think those changes could be a way to increase the skill needed for lancers to attack enemies, make it easier for them to deal fatal blows. It would speed up the fights against horses and support group approaches like a shock cavalry. The current way it works is not nice to watch nor nice to play. It’s frustrating for both anti cavalry and cavalry because of the bugs, incredible mobility differences and the horse working more as a worthless second life than a companion to fight with and use its advantages.
In the same way it would increase the chance to defend infantry groups with certain skills and make pikes viable in them without sacrificing mobility while reducing hybrid builds to be useful in both, anti infantry and anti cavalry fights.
As for the pike itself, I’ll add further information as I get the chance to work it out, which I currently do not have.
Edit: As of points 2 and 5, having a Spirited Warhorse or higher and the rider use "Iron Grip" should never stop a rider unless it's through a pike wall or anti cavalry buildings. As for other horses, "Iron Grip" should negate the chance for spears or pole arms to dismount riders on any horse but normal horses.
Edit 2: German translation (more or less)
https://pastebin.com/w8LrpNSFChanged some meanings. Will also change the ideas a bit as it's difficult for me to express myself understandable in this matter.
Edit 3: Title